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LeBron vs Jordan

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#121 » by 2018C3 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:40 pm

MJ lost before he won. Once he got to the top, he pretty much stayed there ripping off three in a row.

Yes he did get knocked off once while not playing a full season.

He then came back the following year and dominated once again for three strait years before calling it quits a 2nd time.

From 1985-1998 MJ had 6 championships for the team that drafted him, while taking a whole year off, and only playing in 18 regulation games his 2nd season, and 17 games his 10th season. In 11 full season played, he brought in 6 championships. (Thats a 54% Title rate for each complete season played while in his prime.)

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From 19-34 Lebron played 16 full seasons, and got the team who drafted him one title, and earned three total. (That's a 18.75% Title rate for each complete season played by the same age.)

Its very easy to see who was more dominate. Lebron has him only by longevity, and come know where close in terms of complete dominance over the rest of the league. He is still a great player, He just did not have the same impact as MJ.

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To put things even further into prospective, consider this:


Kobe got 5 from 2000 - 2009. between the ages of 18 and 31 by the time he was 31 In just his first 14 seasons played. (That's a 35.71% Title rate for each complete season played till his last title.)

Duncan Also got 5 between 1999- 2007, By the time he was 31, in just his first 11 seasons played. (That's a 45.54% Title rate for each complete season played till his last title.)

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Lots of players had more dominate primes than Lebron. But he is the lone iron man that just keeps on ticking.
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If you had the option to draft one of these 4 players I got to see in my lifetime, You would be foolish to not to select MJ. I'm very confident in this statement.

In my life time MJ was the most dominate player I witnessed in my lifetime:

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Hell. just forget all the retirements, and he still won 6 titles in his 14 years since entering the league, (That's a 42.85% Title rate for each season not even played from the point he was drafted until his last title.)

Over twice the win percentage Lebron accomplished. while displaying complete dominance over the rest of the league by the same age before he retired for a 2nd time. And remember Lebron had a three year head start being drafted at a younger age.

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Lets forget Lebrons first three years like they never existed and make things even more fair: (He still has 13 and 3 titles by the time he was MJ's age. (That's just a %23.07 title rate while being the exacts same age as MJ, while MJ missed nearly two additional seasons of games at the exact same playing age).
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If some super old guy wants to run Bill Russell's, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's stats, feel free. I'm just comparing the greats I got to see. In my lifetime MJ is by far the best most dominate player I have ever seen.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#122 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:56 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

Agreed he does and maybe he uses HGH or other things like SARMS etc... but there is a strong likelihood that MJ and everyone else did too so it is really a moot point.
Jordan's head didn't grow over the course of his career...definitely not moot.

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If someone had a gun to my head and asked if Jordan was a PED user and was pulling the trigger if I guessed wrong, I'd guess yes. Same with LeBron.



I don’t accept much of what D Rose says but when he said 7 out 10 are on PEDs I tend to think he is right, simply because the competition at that level is so high. Same reason Kobe went out of country to get his blood spun. The elite of the elite and they are all gunning for the same thing. Mostly blind eyes are turned. You have Lyle Alzado which rose a lot of awareness then Bush got into it with Baseball.

I will argue this, that I think the PEDs should be allowed under doctor supervision (which even illegally they are) just for coping with the wear and tear of the sports people are in. We demand the highest performance from these guys or we would all be out watching your rec league Games in droves.

When Jerry Harrison Jr got popped, it was for recovering from injuries. That to me should be allowed as PEDs don’t make a player better exactly, they just allow them to train harder and recover faster. It’s cheating because not everyone is allowed to do it but most are illegally so regulate it, and let it be an even playing field imho. They will never go after the elite because it is bad for the sport but if you make it a non issue we can get back to focusing on the sport.

I have a history of PED use myself and I still am on legal HRT because of what I did to my system when I was young and dumb. Small dies HRT is very healthy though. High dose anything though is not.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#123 » by 2018C3 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:14 pm

It would not surprise me if they were both on PED's. That era was full of them, just look at Baseball, and the tour of france. I will not make any accusations, but if it one day came out I would not be surprised one bit.

In the 90's when I was in the weight room regularly, Even at that local level they were everywhere. I never did them, but know of lots of people who did. I got asked if I did them, or wanted to try them several times.

Back then as opposed to today, most guys in the gym were there to get big. The tiny look was not in.
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We grew up on movies where the little guys got beat up and picked on. Know-body wanted to be the little guy. Pretty much every guy I knew lifted weights regularly to gain bulk.

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The poster up above me is probably a similar age, and approaching 50, or somewhat close.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#124 » by Michael Jackson » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:40 pm

2018C3 wrote:It would not surprise me if they were both on PED's. That era was full of them, just look at Baseball, and the tour of france. I will not make any accusations, but if it one day came out I would not be surprised one bit.

In the 90's when I was in the weight room regularly, Even at that local level they were everywhere. I never did them, but know of lots of people who did. I got asked if I did them, or wanted to try them several times.

Back then as opposed to today, most guys in the gym were there to get big. The tiny look was not in.
____________________________________________________________________________

We grew up on movies where the little guys got beat up and picked on. Know-body wanted to be the little guy. Pretty much every guy I knew lifted weights regularly to gain bulk.

____________________________________________________________________________

The poster up above me is probably a similar age, and approaching 50, or somewhat close.



Agree on “recreational PED” use. I think the PED use when it comes to pros is much trickier. I mean say you are triple AAA or The D league and you are in the cusp, it’s really hard to turn away when your contemporaries are using. It is awfully tough when you are looking at what can be much larger money and legacy. It’s easy to say I’d never do it in That position it Is a whole different perspective.

I don’t know for a fact that any who haven’t failed a test have done it. Even Ryan Braun technically we don’t know but isn’t the “business” of sports it’s pretty rampant.

Regardless of what MJ or Lebron may have done their skills and legacy are insanely dominant.

Even with Mac and Sosa, that summer was real good for baseball and it’s resurgence. Those town and Bonds will always go down as villains and to a large extent earned it because they were so blatant, and if not for the Andro in Macs locker maybe a blind eye would have been turned. Professional sports are entertainment though, and let’s be honest no one gives Hugh Jackman any guff for his use. Technically Mr Olympia is theoretically supposed to be drug free too but everyone accepts that obviously that it is not. Yet there are guys that use higher amounts of gear than Ronnie Coleman did, and still can’t do what Ronnie Coleman did.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#125 » by TheStig » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:49 pm

I do think MJ is the better player.

I would however take Bron's career. He's 17 seasons in and I would be shocked if he didn't have at least 3 more top 3 player seasons in him. He's gone to 10 of the last 13 finals. He's also the more versatile player in terms of match ups and playing with others. You're pretty much guaranteed a finals appearance. I don't see MJ ever deferring to another star. I don't think you'd get anyone other than Pippen (who he helped make) to defer to him. Most of these stars want to prove their the best. Do you think any of today's top 10 players would defer to him and be a 2nd tier option?
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#126 » by Michael Jackson » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:21 pm

Yeah I do think other players would defer to MJ. I hear your argument for sure but in fact Lebron would defer to MJ. Jordan is such an alpha, even among alphas. Put him in any era.

Now as far career longevity and working with other players LBJ has proved he is better at that in a sense for sure. Yet Jordan made Pip a HOF player which Lebron wasn’t able to really do with anyone (even though I think most players like LBJ better as I don’t think outside of success MJ and Pip like each other. We know Grant doesn’t.).

I take MJ but don’t think it’s crazy to make an argument for LBJ. James hate will die down big time after he retires and people will respect him a lot more when he is no longer there to kick around. I mean Jordan was hated, Kobe was hated etc...
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#127 » by JordansBulls » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:52 pm

CBS7 wrote:I see Pippen brought up as a detriment to MJ more and more in the GOAT debate nowadays. MJ never won anything without Pippen. LeBron didn't need any single player. Its just silly to me. As if somehow MJ's career would have been more impressive if he jumped from team to team joining multiple allstars. Would MJ be looked at more favorably if he joined Stockton and Malone for a few years, then Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp for a few years, then finished off his career playing with Shaq for a few years? Hey, at least then you couldn't say that he "needed" Pippen. MJ didn't need Pippen, specifically. He just needed a good team. People don't win without other stars (except Dirk)


Exactly this! Imagine leaving Chicago in 1988 and going to Philly or NYK with Barkley or Ewing and win a few titles and then goes to Chicago once Pippen was there and wins in Chicago and then heads to Seattle in 1993 or Houston and wins with them or even goes to San Antonio in 1995. That is essentially what Lebron was doing
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#128 » by Kurt Heimlich » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:11 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:Yeah I do think other players would defer to MJ. I hear your argument for sure but in fact Lebron would defer to MJ. Jordan is such an alpha, even among alphas. Put him in any era.

Now as far career longevity and working with other players LBJ has proved he is better at that in a sense for sure. Yet Jordan made Pip a HOF player which Lebron wasn’t able to really do with anyone (even though I think most players like LBJ better as I don’t think outside of success MJ and Pip like each other. We know Grant doesn’t.).

I take MJ but don’t think it’s crazy to make an argument for LBJ. James hate will die down big time after he retires and people will respect him a lot more when he is no longer there to kick around. I mean Jordan was hated, Kobe was hated etc...


They may have been "hated" by some early but MJ and Kobe were both widely admired before they wrapped it up and even more universally so after the brutally tragedic loss of Kobe. But Kobe basically was never considered a GOAT contender (as silly as that debate seems relative to everything else).

As for the actual GOAT debate, as a kid who grew up in the 90's idolizing MJ, I don't take offense to kids growing up in the 2010's idolizing Lebron. Without question LBJ is a top 2 player I've ever seen play the game. It probably depends on what you see as the more impressive feat. 6 of 6 titles with one team in fewer seasons/games played vs insane longevity with stats built along the way and a nomadic 4 titles and 10 finals appearances.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#129 » by patryk7754 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:26 pm

Here's my take on LeBron vs Jordan

When you talk about their careers individually, they're both on a different level of historic, obviously. However, when you compare their careers to each other you have to look and both positive and negative. LeBron has more negatives than Mj and that's really not an argument despite what Lebron fans may argue. Now here are what I believe are LeBron's negatives.

Not that he lost in the finals but how he lost in the finals.
In all his losses but one there was someone who outplayed him in the finals. Basically the entire spurs team in his first finals. KD dominated him twice. And the Mavs is a whole nother thing. MJ may have lost to the pistons and the Celtics but he was dropping 63. If you lose to a team that can be forgiven to an extent but he has to be the best player or give an outrageous effort. And LeBron is a chronic conceder which is especially frustrating because if had the killer mentality on a regular basis he might legit be 9/10 or 8/10 in the finals.

The Mavs Series
Worst choke job in NBA history if not all American sports. Straight up looked scared. Don't think much else needs to be said but I will say this. People always talk about how is LeBron supposed to beat the Warriors. Its just him vs 3 or 4 all stars and that not possible to do. But the Mavs proved it possible vs LeBron. And its not like LeBron's significant help.


Those are the two things that are keeping me from calling him the goat but I think what a lot of MJ stans refuse to acknowledge is that LeBron has time to make up for those negative parts of his career. For me, if Lebron gets 6 rings he's the undisputed goat. At minimum 6 and however many losses he'll have in the finals is better than 6-0 (assuming he gets 6MVPs). If he matches his rings total plus all the other accolades Lebron has right now and not to mention what he'll have once he retires. He has the important regular season and playoff stats (plus all the stupid **** espn comes up with). He'll be 35k points 10k reb 10k assists. Be the number one scorer of all time and be top ten in assists.

Now something not relevant to the debate of goatness but just a cherry on top is his story. No matter how outplayed the "Kid from Akron" thing has gotten its still real. Grew up fatherless and poor in a bad city, over came all the expectations he had before he could even drive, becomes a key leader in social change, started a school, puts kids through college, all his friend he grew up with are not only taken care of but he influenced them into becoming successful in their own ways. And I think the thing that would be the best thing of all is if finishes his career breaking the tie with MJ of 6 titles by winning his 7th with his son. Which more than possible.

If I had to bet, Lebron will get to 6 rings and (to me) he'll officially be the goat. But right now, he's not.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#130 » by ThreeMileAllan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:45 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:Yeah I do think other players would defer to MJ. I hear your argument for sure but in fact Lebron would defer to MJ. Jordan is such an alpha, even among alphas. Put him in any era.

Now as far career longevity and working with other players LBJ has proved he is better at that in a sense for sure. Yet Jordan made Pip a HOF player which Lebron wasn’t able to really do with anyone (even though I think most players like LBJ better as I don’t think outside of success MJ and Pip like each other. We know Grant doesn’t.).

I take MJ but don’t think it’s crazy to make an argument for LBJ. James hate will die down big time after he retires and people will respect him a lot more when he is no longer there to kick around. I mean Jordan was hated, Kobe was hated etc...
I hadn't thought of that take at all. I am shocked we don't see it because obviously its speculation. But we already saw a version of it on the Redeem Team. When LeBron was on the same team as Kobe, he deferred to Kobe. So of course he would defer to Jordan. Not sure this view moves the needle for many people though. Maybe keeps the people in the "Jordan was the ultimate alpha competitor" camp firmly in their camp instead of slowly drifting over because of LeBrons 4th chip

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#131 » by TheStig » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:20 am

Michael Jackson wrote:Yeah I do think other players would defer to MJ. I hear your argument for sure but in fact Lebron would defer to MJ. Jordan is such an alpha, even among alphas. Put him in any era.

Now as far career longevity and working with other players LBJ has proved he is better at that in a sense for sure. Yet Jordan made Pip a HOF player which Lebron wasn’t able to really do with anyone (even though I think most players like LBJ better as I don’t think outside of success MJ and Pip like each other. We know Grant doesn’t.).

I take MJ but don’t think it’s crazy to make an argument for LBJ. James hate will die down big time after he retires and people will respect him a lot more when he is no longer there to kick around. I mean Jordan was hated, Kobe was hated etc...

Bron is really the one guy who would defer. I don't think many top 10 guys would want to defer to MJ. I think he'd be more like Kobe.

As I said, MJ is better, more exciting, more famed. But I'd take 20 very high level seasons to 13. I think the longevity is worth the drop off. That's my point. There is clearly a drop off. But even guys like Duncan and Kareem and Dirk really dropped off at the end. I think Bron will still be great at 38. He could easily play into his 40's if he wants.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#132 » by dice » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:39 am

team rankings by season (lebron/MJ):

age 19 21
age 20 18
age 21 6 14
age 22 4 x
age 23 13 15
age 24 3 8
age 25 5 3
age 26 2 5
age 27 1 1
age 28 1 1
age 29 2 1
age 30 4 x
age 31 2 x
age 32 1 1
age 33 4 1
age 34 3 1
age 35 20
age 36 1
age 37
age 38 18
age 39 20
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#133 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:35 am

I'm always gonna take Mike, but let's be real here, a few years from now, outside of Chicago, outside of people over 40…everybody else is going to say LeBron's the GOAT. I will keep disagreeing because I value sheer dominance more and MJ's prime was plenty long enough for me, but there are still some people who take Kareem over MJ due to longevity. Imagine when LeBron beats Kareem in longevity.

He's going to take the points title from Kareem. He's probably going to end up second in assists to Stockton. Probably top-20 in rebounds. Probably top-5 in steals. He's even more dominating in playoff stats. He's already #1 in MVP voting shares. #1 in VORP. Will eventually be #1 in win shares. Has the most All-NBA first team appearances. Most All-NBA team total appearances. He is going to absolutely destroy the longevity case.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#134 » by Southpaw » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:08 am

I think plenty of players now would defer to Jordan if he was playing, including Lebron. He was just that dominant imo and people would follow his lead.

I think an underrated part about Lebron's career is how he exceeded expectations form before he was drafted, as high as those expectations were. Lebron's stats would be unreal when he retires, even if he doesn't win any more chips. And he still has a chance to win a few more before he retires.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#135 » by ZOMG » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:55 am

ThreeMileAllan wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:Yeah I do think other players would defer to MJ. I hear your argument for sure but in fact Lebron would defer to MJ. Jordan is such an alpha, even among alphas. Put him in any era.

Now as far career longevity and working with other players LBJ has proved he is better at that in a sense for sure. Yet Jordan made Pip a HOF player which Lebron wasn’t able to really do with anyone (even though I think most players like LBJ better as I don’t think outside of success MJ and Pip like each other. We know Grant doesn’t.).

I take MJ but don’t think it’s crazy to make an argument for LBJ. James hate will die down big time after he retires and people will respect him a lot more when he is no longer there to kick around. I mean Jordan was hated, Kobe was hated etc...
I hadn't thought of that take at all. I am shocked we don't see it because obviously its speculation. But we already saw a version of it on the Redeem Team. When LeBron was on the same team as Kobe, he deferred to Kobe. So of course he would defer to Jordan. Not sure this view moves the needle for many people though. Maybe keeps the people in the "Jordan was the ultimate alpha competitor" camp firmly in their camp instead of slowly drifting over because of LeBrons 4th chip


I will never understand why people equate passing the ball with "deferring". As if the star who trusts his teammates the least is the ultimate alpha.

We all know Jordan always seemed to disparage most of his teammates, and if he could've played the game alone and still win, he probably would have. Of course, the combination of his individual skills and the rule framework he was playing in back then meant that MJ was the best scoring option 99% of the time, anyway. But his ego and personality definitely had an effect on how he looked at the game. I consider Jordan a highly intelligent individual, but I've never seen much evidence of him enjoying basketball as purely a team sport. It was always an individual battle field for him. As was baseball.

LeBron, though, has always been very different. At his core level, he's a playmaker and always has been. When he passes the ball in crunch time instead of forcing up a difficult shot, I don't believe for a second that he is "deferring". His instincts are kicking in and forcing him to make right play in the context of team ball. In a weird way, it's unfortunate that he was also blessed with incredible physical gifts, as they brought with them a set of expectations on how he should have played the game - in the historical context of individual NBA superstardom. For a guy with a mind like a basketball computer, it's a hard equation to solve.

In fact, I believe LeBron has spent his entire career trying to juggle these two things: how he'd LIKE to play and how he HAS to play. In a way, MJ probably had the same problem... but inversely.

I'm absolutely sure that if I somehow ended up in pickup game as a teammate of LeBron James, he'd automatically pass me the ball if he saw me open on the perimeter. Jordan, though, wouldn't even look at me. And they'd both be right.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#136 » by troza » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:04 pm

ZOMG wrote:
ThreeMileAllan wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:Yeah I do think other players would defer to MJ. I hear your argument for sure but in fact Lebron would defer to MJ. Jordan is such an alpha, even among alphas. Put him in any era.

Now as far career longevity and working with other players LBJ has proved he is better at that in a sense for sure. Yet Jordan made Pip a HOF player which Lebron wasn’t able to really do with anyone (even though I think most players like LBJ better as I don’t think outside of success MJ and Pip like each other. We know Grant doesn’t.).

I take MJ but don’t think it’s crazy to make an argument for LBJ. James hate will die down big time after he retires and people will respect him a lot more when he is no longer there to kick around. I mean Jordan was hated, Kobe was hated etc...
I hadn't thought of that take at all. I am shocked we don't see it because obviously its speculation. But we already saw a version of it on the Redeem Team. When LeBron was on the same team as Kobe, he deferred to Kobe. So of course he would defer to Jordan. Not sure this view moves the needle for many people though. Maybe keeps the people in the "Jordan was the ultimate alpha competitor" camp firmly in their camp instead of slowly drifting over because of LeBrons 4th chip


I will never understand why people equate passing the ball with "deferring". As if the star who trusts his teammates the least is the ultimate alpha.



I agree with this as this is building a narrative that can fail. Jordan passed to Steve Kerr (maybe the best ever assist in the finals... kicked John Stockton at the same time, made a no-look pass - Jeff Hornacek went for other open man) for the game winning shot. The same way Lebron gave Green the chance to close out the finals, although a lot less spectaculary.

The thing is... Why does he pass the ball? Is the other always on better position?

The fact is that Lebron isn't as reliable in the free throw line and doesn't have a good jump shot... and that makes the difference.

He can get by most of the players and create the right basketball play! That's amazing. Isn't it scary to think that it would be even more amazing if he had that mid range? When he has that, he really gets close to MJ.



About the ones saying that he car surpass... yes he can, teaming with all stars left and right, with rules made for him to shine and him being that good... of course he can.

But... would Jordan legacy be bigger if he went to the Lakers instead of the Wizards? I will always be glad that he didn't. He would have 2 more titles... easy paths, being part of possibly the most dominating team ever... If that team was that good with Glen Rice and then Rick Fox in the starting line up, imagine with Jordan with him not being injured like he was.

On GOAT talks as top contenders there are so few players that didn't play for the Lakers. They have been on the finals every decade, they have titles in almost every decade... if Durant going to the Warriors is a lame move, how is it to go for the most titled franchise ever, with more finals, more big free agents signings and probably one with the most hall of famers (if you exclude all guys from the 60s they surely are).

In the end... it will be all about preference. Jordan is still the one out there that was a beast on offense and defense... but did he even surpassed Bill Russel with 11 titles in 13 years, incredible records and one loss while injured and another against one of the greatest players ever and maybe not the goat just because of Bill Russel? Again, all about preference.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#137 » by bledredwine » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:19 pm

Even if we put the rings thing aside.... 2 points worth considering are:

1.
We've seen Dirk play better than Lebron, Jimmy equal to Lebron, Kawhi, Melo, Durant, and Kobe match up equally with Lebron (during their primes), Durant having a better series and crushing him in the clutch twice, to the point that Lebron wouldn't even guard him. Durant averaged 30 on Lebron for his career. Who the heck did even close to that to Jordan?

Who bettered Jordan? Not even Magic or Bird did. According to this thread, Kemp had a better PER in 1996, the only series where someone had a better PER, but we know who faced way more defensive attention.

Jordan put up Lebron's Raptor series numbers for 7 straight years in the 80s and 90s. And that's in the time without inflated triple double stats everywhere. That's just another level of player.

2. One thing that honestly annoys me about sports forums the most is how many people have completely forgotten how dominant Jordan was on defense.

Question for all of you- How many times did Pippen finish ahead of Jordan in defensive player of the year voting?
To put it in perspective, how many times was Jordan voted into top 3 DPOY? How many times was Tim Duncan top 5?

I'll give you a clue, it's not even close.
No one remembers just how good Jordan was defensively. You have to watch the games again. Lebron's never been at the level of either of those guys on the defensive end. They were nicknamed dobermen for a reason.

Many players and legends stated that Jordan was the best defender in the league. For the record, I'd take Olajuwon, but no one perimeter player has rivaled the impact of 88 Jordan.
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dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
JH 20.6 PPG

LBJ 27% in the clutch in the Finals: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1651184
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#138 » by bledredwine » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:45 pm

So,

In comparing Jordan and Lebron defensively, this one's not close. In terms of DPOY placement, it's not that far off. But when you look at the names that they beat out, the GOAT defensive players Jordan beat, the aging or weaker defenders Lebron lost to, it looks pretty obvious.

Jordan

86-87 8th
87-88 1st (also MVP)
89-90 5th
90-91 7th
91-92 2nd
92-93 2nd

95-96 6th
96-97 5th
97-98 4th

Lebron
06-07 not even top 30
07-08 not even top 20
08-09 2nd (Lebron was great this year, but weak year afterwards... wade was 3rd, Battier next… poor competition in comparison)
09-10 4th (Beaten by Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith at 2nd, Dwight at 1st… Rondo 5th, weak)
10-2011 9th
11-12 4th
12-13 2nd
13-14 6th
14-15 13th
15-16 11th
16-17 5th
17-18 nope.
18-19 nope.
19-20 nope.

In 08 and 09, Lebron finished second after Dwight because it was a defensively weak year- Though Dwight beat Lebron and had a great year, the next places were Wade and Battier, which is nothing compared to the era of Ewing, Alonzo, Dikembi, D. Rob, Hakeem, Pippen, Rodman etc.

In 09-10, Lebron was 4th beaten by Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith at 2nd... and Rondo finishing right after him at 5th (Dwight legit again at first). Weak, weak year. 08-09 was the only year that Lebron was a special defender at all. I'll give him that he had a great year.

Otherwise? Pretty mediocre. Lebron never really is considered a top 5 defender.

Jordan, however, was always elite. You never saw him get ousted by 20-30 players, not finish in voting, and you never saw guys like Josh Smith and Gerald Wallace beating him.

Who did Jordan lose to in voting? Only Eaten, Pistons Dennis, Hakeem, Rodman, D. Rob, Payton, Dikembi... and Jordan beat out all of them nearly all the time. Exception - Hakeem. Those are defensive GOATS.

Who did Lebron lose to in defensive voting? Lebron's been beaten by so many, and Tayshaun Prince, Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith, Raja Bell, Iggy, Ibaka, Chandler, Hibbert, Noah, DeAndre, Ibaka, Kidd-Gilchrist, Whiteside, Milsap..... while all elite defenders, are not of the quality (often nowhere near the quality) of the defenders mentioned above. I am ommitting some of the elite - Dwight, Gasol, etc... to make a point. Lebron was BEATEN OUT by those mentioned guys. He's also been beaten out by players at his own position, such as Iggy, Kawhi, Jimmy, etc. Jordan never was not the best defender at his position, period (post 86).

The defensive impact isn't even close between Jordan and Lebron, especially over the last 4-5 years.
Image

dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
JH 20.6 PPG

LBJ 27% in the clutch in the Finals: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1651184
Dieselbound&Down
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#139 » by Dieselbound&Down » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:27 pm

ZOMG wrote:In fact, I believe LeBron has spent his entire career trying to juggle these two things: how he'd LIKE to play and how he HAS to play. In a way, MJ probably had the same problem... but inversely.


This is a great thought. And I agree that being a great and willing passer is overcooked as a weakness in determining "best". Yes, it means sometimes you create shots for other players who aren't as strong mentally or lack technique/consistency and the youtube clip isn't as cool.

The narrative after Jordan was that a superstar basically had to be the one to shoot it, because Jordan was so close to perfect in getting himself a good shot and hitting it at a high rate. This narrative was something lots of greats simply couldn't do at a high enough level to get anywhere near Jordan and it hurt them. Kobe being a prime example.

As much as it is awesome to give the ball to your closer and watch him create a basket. If you were to line up the all time greats and gave them each a 20 second possession to end the game, you would not be surprised at all when Bird, Lebron, Magic, West, etc. made a great pass and more surprised if they forced a bad shot. Of the all time greats, Jordan is one of the least willing passers. He grew into a more willing passer but it was certainly not natural. Now, at the end of the day, results are all that mattered and Jordan is unrivaled when it comes to getting and making a big shot at the end of the game.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#140 » by Am2626 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:55 pm

TheStig wrote:I do think MJ is the better player.

I would however take Bron's career. He's 17 seasons in and I would be shocked if he didn't have at least 3 more top 3 player seasons in him.He's gone to 10 of the last 13 finals. He's also the more versatile player in terms of match ups and playing with others. You're pretty much guaranteed a finals appearance. I don't see MJ ever deferring to another star. I don't think you'd get anyone other than Pippen (who he helped make) to defer to him. Most of these stars want to prove their the best. Do you think any of today's top 10 players would defer to him and be a 2nd tier option?


LeBron has a lot of mileage and is 35. I can see him being elite for another 1-2 years but age will catch up to him soon. Asking a 37 -38 year old with 20 seasons under his belt to play at an MVP level is asking a lot.

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