LeBron vs Jordan

[UnFadeable21]

Lebron just passed Magic on the all time list and is now on the Mount Rushmore of Basketball

Michael Jordan 14 Seasons

6 Championships
6 Finals MVP’s
5 MVP’s
10 Scoring Titles
1 DPOY
3x Stls champ
6-0 Finals W-L

VS

Lebron James 17 seasons

4 Championships
4 Finals MVP’s
4 MVP’s
1 Scoring title
1 Ast Champ
4-6 Finals W-L

MJ Peak & Dominance while Bron longevity

Why did he pass Magic Johnson? I also believe that Lebron is better (by the way, I think that Bird was better than Magic until his injury got the best of him) but Magic made the finals almost every year of his career. 9 finals in 11 years and was forced to retire due to the ignorance about HIV. 5 titles, 3 finals MVP... also on a super loaded team the majority of the time and in an easy conference.

One thing I will say about longevity... the way you wrote things the differences between Jordan and Lebron are:
- 2 Champions
- 2 FMVP
- 1 MVP
- 9 Scoring titles
- 1 DPOY
- 3x Stls champ
- 1 Ast champ

Only one in favor of Lebron. If you take out the ast champ... you have an hall of fame career between Jordan and Lebron's accolates. In way less years.

So... is Lebron's longevity impressive? Yes. Should it be an advantage as big as some will say? Maybe... but it must also be seen as a disadvantage because he did so much less in so much more time. And almost no one talks about the second.

Magic
5 rings
3 MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
9 Finals appearances

Lebron
4 rings
4 MVPs
4 Finals MVPs
10 final appearances

Deciding factor is Lebron is just crushing him in the total numbers so you have to give the edge to Lebron.

[JordansBulls]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

[JordansBulls]

Lebron just passed Magic on the all time list and is now on the Mount Rushmore of Basketball

Michael Jordan 14 Seasons

6 Championships
6 Finals MVP’s
5 MVP’s
10 Scoring Titles
1 DPOY
3x Stls champ
6-0 Finals W-L

VS

Lebron James 17 seasons

4 Championships
4 Finals MVP’s
4 MVP’s
1 Scoring title
1 Ast Champ
4-6 Finals W-L

MJ Peak & Dominance while Bron longevity

Why did he pass Magic Johnson? I also believe that Lebron is better (by the way, I think that Bird was better than Magic until his injury got the best of him) but Magic made the finals almost every year of his career. 9 finals in 11 years and was forced to retire due to the ignorance about HIV. 5 titles, 3 finals MVP... also on a super loaded team the majority of the time and in an easy conference.

One thing I will say about longevity... the way you wrote things the differences between Jordan and Lebron are:
- 2 Champions
- 2 FMVP
- 1 MVP
- 9 Scoring titles
- 1 DPOY
- 3x Stls champ
- 1 Ast champ

Only one in favor of Lebron. If you take out the ast champ... you have an hall of fame career between Jordan and Lebron's accolates. In way less years.

So... is Lebron's longevity impressive? Yes. Should it be an advantage as big as some will say? Maybe... but it must also be seen as a disadvantage because he did so much less in so much more time. And almost no one talks about the second.

In sports it isn't about who played longer it is about who was actually better. If a guy got drafted to a franchise and only got 1 title in 11 seasons while another turned a franchise into a dynasty who is greater?

Tom Brady is greater than Peyton Manning, Dan Marino not because he played longer but rather what he did with the franchise that drafted him. He turned a franchise that never won anything into a dynasty and 6 superbowl titles.

[dice]

Lebron just passed Magic on the all time list and is now on the Mount Rushmore of Basketball

Michael Jordan 14 Seasons

6 Championships
6 Finals MVP’s
5 MVP’s
10 Scoring Titles
1 DPOY
3x Stls champ
6-0 Finals W-L

VS

Lebron James 17 seasons

4 Championships
4 Finals MVP’s
4 MVP’s
1 Scoring title
1 Ast Champ
4-6 Finals W-L

MJ Peak & Dominance while Bron longevity

Why did he pass Magic Johnson? I also believe that Lebron is better (by the way, I think that Bird was better than Magic until his injury got the best of him) but Magic made the finals almost every year of his career. 9 finals in 11 years and was forced to retire due to the ignorance about HIV. 5 titles, 3 finals MVP... also on a super loaded team the majority of the time and in an easy conference.

One thing I will say about longevity... the way you wrote things the differences between Jordan and Lebron are:
- 2 Champions
- 2 FMVP
- 1 MVP
- 9 Scoring titles
- 1 DPOY
- 3x Stls champ
- 1 Ast champ

Only one in favor of Lebron. If you take out the ast champ... you have an hall of fame career between Jordan and Lebron's accolates. In way less years.

So... is Lebron's longevity impressive? Yes. Should it be an advantage as big as some will say? Maybe... but it must also be seen as a disadvantage because he did so much less in so much more time. And almost no one talks about the second.

In sports it isn't about who played longer it is about who was actually better.

then gayle sayers is a GOAT candidate

[dougthonus]

In sports it isn't about who played longer it is about who was actually better.

then gayle sayers is a GOAT candidate

Pretty hard to argue that Sayers was the best, ignoring the time requirement, even his best season was no where near the best season of other elite RBs.

On a separate note, a better way to put it isn't that longevity doesn't matter at all, but that longevity after a "reasonable amount of time" has very little value. LeBron definitely gets some credit for his longevity, that shouldn't even be a question. However, its not a whole lot of value and its only even "some" value, because his longevity projects to be legendary.

In a comparison to Jordan, I think the longevity has even more value because Jordan was burnt out and effectively had to quit for 2 years in the middle of his career due to the pressure (granted, if his father wasn't murdered this may not have been true, and that's a fairly extraordinary set of circumstances).

[dice]

In sports it isn't about who played longer it is about who was actually better.

then gayle sayers is a GOAT candidate

Pretty hard to argue that Sayers was the best, ignoring the time requirement, even his best season was no where near the best season of other elite RBs.

led the league in yards from scrimmage averaging 5.4 yards per carry. since then only 7 other players have accomplished that (peterson, c. johnson, faulk, sanders, dickerson, payton, OJ). was on his way to doing it again averaging 6.2 when he got injured

when combined with his GOAT caliber kick/punt return abilities...

[dougthonus]

then gayle sayers is a GOAT candidate

Pretty hard to argue that Sayers was the best, ignoring the time requirement, even his best season was no where near the best season of other elite RBs.

led the league in yards from scrimmage averaging 5.4 yards per carry. since then only 7 other players have accomplished that (peterson, c. johnson, faulk, sanders, dickerson, payton, OJ). was on his way to doing it again averaging 6.2 when he got injured

when combined with his GOAT caliber kick/punt return abilities...

There are probably a bunch of guys that have had 150+ yards from scrimmage per game, more TDs, and similar yards per touch. If you look at best season by a RB in NFL history, I find it very unlikely you'd come up with Sayers whose best year was around 120 total yards per game and less than 1 TD per game. That's not the best season by a RB.

[dice]

Pretty hard to argue that Sayers was the best, ignoring the time requirement, even his best season was no where near the best season of other elite RBs.

led the league in yards from scrimmage averaging 5.4 yards per carry. since then only 7 other players have accomplished that (peterson, c. johnson, faulk, sanders, dickerson, payton, OJ). was on his way to doing it again averaging 6.2 when he got injured

when combined with his GOAT caliber kick/punt return abilities...

There are probably a bunch of guys that have had 150+ yards from scrimmage per game, more TDs, and similar yards per touch. If you look at best season by a RB in NFL history, I find it very unlikely you'd come up with Sayers whose best year was around 120 total yards per game and less than 1 TD per game. That's not the best season by a RB.

i didn't say it was the best season by an RB. it clearly wasn't

and TDs are a highly overrated stat. in his final season jerome bettis rushed for 368 yards and 9 TD

[dougthonus]

i didn't say it was the best season by an RB. it clearly wasn't

Then what makes him the best?

and TDs are a highly overrated stat. in his final season jerome bettis rushed for 368 yards and 9 TD

Agree that TDs are inflated in importance due to the fantasy football value.

[Dieselbound&Down]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

The point that he won only 1 title with the Cavs seems largely inconsequential. Having input on trades and signings likewise doesn't move the needle much. Those are organizational flaws and Lebron shouldn't get docked for not being an all time great GM and players at the same time. I would drop those points and focus more on other things you can/have highlighted.

[dougthonus]

The point that he won only 1 title with the Cavs seems largely inconsequential. Having input on trades and signings likewise doesn't move the needle much. Those are organizational flaws and Lebron shouldn't get docked for not being an all time great GM and players at the same time. I would drop those points and focus more on other things you can/have highlighted.

I agree, even the fact that he bounced around isn't something I could realistically hold against him because its a subset of the "quality of cast" argument. If Jordan had the same quality of cast without having to jump around then that's not LeBron's fault that he maximized his cast quality through movement because he didn't luck out into having his franchise draft a 2nd hall of fame talent that would mirror his whole career length.

If LeBron had better casts than Jordan due to his movement around, then it doesn't really matter that he moved, but it does matter that he had better casts as a point against him.

[fleet]

Was looking at something else and thought this belonged here. While older tweet, and I don’t know what Lebron has done on that front recently. It adds to the conversation on level of court dominance.

Read on Twitter

[JordansBulls]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

The point that he won only 1 title with the Cavs seems largely inconsequential. Having input on trades and signings likewise doesn't move the needle much. Those are organizational flaws and Lebron shouldn't get docked for not being an all time great GM and players at the same time. I would drop those points and focus more on other things you can/have highlighted.

What about jumping ship 3 times to join star players all in there primes? Never sticking around once the team goes down. Jordan was winning with an old squad in 1998.

[troza]

What about jumping ship 3 times to join star players all in there primes? Never sticking around once the team goes down. Jordan was winning with an old squad in 1998.

Although the circumstances were different, Jordan didn't exactly sick around once the team goes down. Unless we count the fact that he went to the Wizards in 2001 instead of the Lakers...

The old squad in 1998... do we really have to talk about it? That's a team that won 141 and back to back titles in the two previous seasons. Yes, they were old but they were going for a second 3-peat with the best 2 regular seasons in a row in history. How is that sticking around once a team goes down?

Not that I will say that Lebron doesn't have an artificial long stay at top teams, going from one place to another and always trying to play with better conditions than his opponents (more all stars and power to decide who plays with him... seriously... I'm pretty sure he broke a lot of tampering rules over the years). And how he is excellent placing the success on him and the blame on others... but let's not change history.

[fleet]

What Scott Williams believes that Michael Jordan has but LeBron James doesn’t

According to Williams, LeBron is ‘too nice’:

“The only thing that I will say that is probably a separation is that Michael has had a nastiness and ferocity to his game that LeBron may not possess. LeBron will try to beat you. He definitely wants to beat you. But MJ wants to beat you in a way where you will be embarrassed to go on a ride home with your spouse after the game.”

“That was about the only difference between Michael and LeBron that made me think that his competitiveness and fuel were a little bit more than what LeBron had and that’s why MJ would never lose in the NBA Finals.”

“He just wouldn’t let it happen. I don’t care who was wearing the other jerseys across from him. You knew that he was the ultimate weapon. It’s not a knock on LeBron. That’s just what separated Michael from everybody else including Magic, Bird, the greats of the greats.”

https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-michael-jordan-had-a-nastiness-to-his-game-that-lebron-james-does-not-possess-former-teammate-explains-difference-between-goats/?amp

[dougthonus]

I saw LeBron sideways talking about how he won't say he is the greatest, but he won the greatest two titles of all time:

1: Come back against GSW
- If beating an all time great team makes it the greatest title of all time, then why are not the six times someone beat you, the theoretical best player of all time, in the finals on the greatest list? Seems like if you're an all time great than beating you should be an all time great achievement instead of relatively common place. Would seem like the Mavs title is a bigger upset than this one, making you on the wrong side of the greatest of all time titles, specifically because you choked it away.

2: Winning in the bubble
- This is the most unique title of all time, but not the greatest, it was actually the lowest level of competition a champion has faced in the run to win the title that I was able to find in the last 40 years (though there are a few others that are up for debate).

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Lebron while all time great player top 5-10 for sure is overrated. He is esentially the gm off every team he had played, while having his own agency which most likley paying some of his fa signings under the table and in clear conflict of interest. While i watched Lebron since that hs game, he is the same guy who missed playoffs entirely his first two seasons, was unable to win chip in his first 8 years in Cleveland, was outplayed by Parker in 07 averaging 11 ppg in finals sweep, losing with team Usa in Athens olympic games not one, not two, but three times, while being blowed by 20 from Arroyo, losing in 06 in world championships against Greece and Sofoklis (Eddy Curry was fitness model in comparison to Sofo), losing against old Celtics multiple times in playoffs while Truth Pierce outplayed him in clutch, losing and being outplayed in ecf in 09 by Dwight Howard, epic failure losing vs Mavs in 11, lone star Dirk against 3 all nba players, pizza boy from college midget Barea get under his skinn and was Lebron stopper with Terry, missed playoffs with Lakers being 29-28. Nba always pushed him with awarding Cavs with 2 first picks, Lakers with 4 pick, never won without Irving,Wade as Robin who were Batmans in clutch, A.Davis was equal to Lebron if not better last year, Allen made clutch shot against Spurs while Lebron brick it.He had so many choke and down moments and now he want to push this narrative how he is best ever, which is dellusional and deep in himself he knows that. While Jordan and Bulls lost to Celtics and Pistons, Jordan was still by far best and most dominant player on the court. James was outplayed many times and came on short when he had better talent on his squad versus opossite teams. Michael Jordan was clearley outplayed only one time, in 2003 as 40 years old, injury plagued Gm-player in Wizards by prime Kobe. But in 96, 97,98 Jordan schooled Kobe and was much better than Bryant in that era.

[troza]

I saw LeBron sideways talking about how he won't say he is the greatest, but he won the greatest two titles of all time:

1: Come back against GSW
- If beating an all time great team makes it the greatest title of all time, then why are not the six times someone beat you, the theoretical best player of all time, in the finals on the greatest list? Seems like if you're an all time great than beating you should be an all time great achievement instead of relatively common place. Would seem like the Mavs title is a bigger upset than this one, making you on the wrong side of the greatest of all time titles, specifically because you choked it away.

2: Winning in the bubble
- This is the most unique title of all time, but not the greatest, it was actually the lowest level of competition a champion has faced in the run to win the title that I was able to find in the last 40 years (though there are a few others that are up for debate).

1: Come back against GSW

I still feel that those Warriors are way overrated. Yes, they won 73 games but they were almost eliminated by the OKC, had trouble every series (compare with the way the Bulls reached the finals in 96), Curry as the main guy never had a finals series were he was at his best (only after Durant was on the Warriors), the Cavs clearly had the two best players of the series and they gave the Warriors lots of trouble in the previous year when the Cavs didn't have Irving and Love... saying that...

The comeback is impressive at it was made at the cost of some of the best performances ever by Lebron but... shouldn't they never be in that position? I mean... when you look at everything that happened, who had the best players on the floor and the way the 2015 finals developed... The most impressive thing here for me is winning with Lue coaching...

And I agree... the Mavs were a bigger upset in the finals and a more impressive way to the finals. 2004 Pistons are also above that.

Finally... if people are that impressive with the comeback thing... I do think that more impressive is seeing an old Spurs squad destroying the Heat in 2014 in total domination... making that Heat team looking weak (when they actually did well in the first two games... if I'm not mistaken, until Wade had an injury in the finals)


2: Winning in the bubble
About this one, it was one of the easiest titles ever. I don't remember the name of the stat but it was the easiest in a long long time. And all teams were in the same conditions with no travel and so on... that benefits old players... like the Lakers squad.

If it is about the conditions and about everything that happened... remember when there were back-to-backs in the playoffs? Remember the players in the 60s that were fighting racism and were way more affected by it than all the players today? Remember all the traveling in way worse conditions? I don't remember that well but I've read about it and people still downgrade this but somehow hype the bubble thing?

So... yeah... not the greatest two titles in my opinion. Still had impressive moments, great NBA moments in the history.