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LeBron vs Jordan

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#41 » by Ice Man » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:58 pm

I was almost right. I wrote that in no playoff series, ever, was Michael Jordan not the best player. Well I just went through the history and on the measure of average Game Score, MJ was the top player in every playoff series he ever was in, except for the '96 Finals, when he had a Game Score of 18.5 and Shawn Kemp was 18.9.

Now I will do this exercise for LeBron.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#42 » by dice » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:34 pm

i'm willing to punt on the argument going forward by just saying that MJ had the more flawless career (and best peak), while lebron will end up having the best extended career (total value to the teams he's played for)

who am i drafting as future 18 year olds if both have their DNA cloned? MJ
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#43 » by PrimzyBulls81 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:28 am

Jordan was best of his era..
James is best of his era.
Jordan is GOAT no. 1, James is GOAT no. 1a
Jordan was goat when passion/winning/warrior mentality is in question, lebron is goat when most dominant versatile player is in question, regarding baskets, rebounds and assists combined.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#44 » by othawhitemeat » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:52 am

I am going to show bias but I dont think it is particularly close. Yes Jordan has the heart and will of a lion, but he was an elite athlete, elite 1st step, good midrange jumper, high IQ, and defense. To be honest the only thing Lebron has on anyone sans Kareem is productive kongevity play. I think Jordan, Babe, Ali, and Brady are GOATS of their sport. Besides the Babe, all of them are known as tenacious winners. Lebron is a great and was good but really was aided by being a great player, a softer era, and by pairing with superstars for the past decade. In addition, it is not that he joined another star player, but that he continually would join multiple star players. In addition, how much does he flop, illustrate against playing other elite teams if hint of trouble, complain about officiating, and complain about not help. It is not just that he joined other superteams but how many times he would come out passive in big games and/or 4th quarter.

For me, I just think there is mo one close to Jordan at all in NBA. Does that someone cant top him? No, but it would take a dominant player like a Lebron with a mentality of a Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. For me, lets just swap some other top 10 all time NBA players for some of the teams Lebron is on in the last 10 years outside of Lebron and how many titles do they win and are there questions on who best player is in Finals or other series?

1) Bird in place of Lebron on Heatles? Do they win more than 2? What about this years Lakers? Do they even go 6 games against Heat? Does Bird get outplated 2x by Butler?

2) Hakeem Olajuwon? I say this because he is not top 3 but pair him Heatles. They win all 4 with that talent and he is best player every game.

Im just pointing these out that Lebrons skill level is so high but his competitiveness over and over has been so weak. Also, put these stars in weak East.
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LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#45 » by MisterRoy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:33 am

Ice Man wrote:I was almost right. I wrote that in no playoff series, ever, was Michael Jordan not the best player. Well I just went through the history and on the measure of average Game Score, MJ was the top player in every playoff series he ever was in, except for the '96 Finals, when he had a Game Score of 18.5 and Shawn Kemp was 18.9.

Now I will do this exercise for LeBron.

In this debate there is no room for error!


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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#46 » by Michael Jackson » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:41 am

othawhitemeat wrote:I am going to show bias but I dont think it is particularly close. Yes Jordan has the heart and will of a lion, but he was an elite athlete, elite 1st step, good midrange jumper, high IQ, and defense. To be honest the only thing Lebron has on anyone sans Kareem is productive kongevity play. I think Jordan, Babe, Ali, and Brady are GOATS of their sport. Besides the Babe, all of them are known as tenacious winners. Lebron is a great and was good but really was aided by being a great player, a softer era, and by pairing with superstars for the past decade. In addition, it is not that he joined another star player, but that he continually would join multiple star players. In addition, how much does he flop, illustrate against playing other elite teams if hint of trouble, complain about officiating, and complain about not help. It is not just that he joined other superteams but how many times he would come out passive in big games and/or 4th quarter.

For me, I just think there is mo one close to Jordan at all in NBA. Does that someone cant top him? No, but it would take a dominant player like a Lebron with a mentality of a Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. For me, lets just swap some other top 10 all time NBA players for some of the teams Lebron is on in the last 10 years outside of Lebron and how many titles do they win and are there questions on who best player is in Finals or other series?

1) Bird in place of Lebron on Heatles? Do they win more than 2? What about this years Lakers? Do they even go 6 games against Heat? Does Bird get outplated 2x by Butler?

2) Hakeem Olajuwon? I say this because he is not top 3 but pair him Heatles. They win all 4 with that talent and he is best player every game.

Im just pointing these out that Lebrons skill level is so high but his competitiveness over and over has been so weak. Also, put these stars in weak East.


I love Hakeem but he isn’t winning 4. The Heat were top heavy but shallow and that came through in spades. Larry Birds Celtics were stacked teams.. the depth of those teams was great great even when compared to the pairings today. Of all tests the eye test wins that Jordan was better than LBJ in my book but let’s not try to downplay LBJ. He may not be very likable but he is an amazing talent. The a he did The Decision he took all of Kobe’s hate. Kobe stopped being the guy everyone hate and Bron has been it since. He will be more treasured and less hated when his career is over.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#47 » by RastaBull » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:06 am

RastaBull wrote:I like to first acknowledge LeBron as one of the top 3 greatest players in NBA history. For me it took a while for him to get into that threshold. After Miami, he was still no where near the Jordan debate. 5 finals, appearances, a domination of a league, everything a LeBron superfan would want to throw out there at that point was ver very valid. But it was valid as to how LeBron stacks up with someone like Kobe's excellence. He wasn't close to Jordan obviously.

Going back to Cleveland was a big move that at the end pushed him his legacy a huge step forward. The four more appearances do a little; they are ECF champs, but really 4 appearances doesn't mean that much by itself. That one Cleveland championships was career defining. It really is one of the greatest rings for an individual lead player of all time. Had LeBron not gone to Finals any of those 3 other years with Cleveland, that one win would still have the same effect on me.

Which was to clearly elevate him over Kobe.

Now, looking at his career, imo he is clearly elevated over Magic. They are so similar in their dominance, their influence, but in the Magic-LeBron comparison LeBron's longevity at the very top height is undeniably a difference maker.

Bill Russell is always in my top 4, but it's kind of like he a separate space for him that not analogous or comparable with the rest because it was such a different league.

So LeBron is absolutely part of the Jordan, Kareem debate. And honestly, it's made me think that at end of the day it's just reality that Jordan can be the GOAT ... but it's not the clear runaway GOAT conversation I grew up thinking it was. And it's not just LeBron ... but more of us should be listening to those old bball heads that want to make argument that Kareem is the GOAT (not that you have to agree, but it's def good to hear it out).

Respect your evaluation and OP Doug, so not to sidetrack. But one thing I always ask now for those LeBron-GOAT supporters, is to forget about Jordan (like forget he ever existed, or let's act like we concede he's not even part of the debate anymore) ... how do you make the argument that LeBron is the GOAT of Kareem?


Kareem and LeBron are really really interesting debate and comparison. Both dominated the league early, both came in with SUPREME expectations (honestly, Kareem might be the only one close to the same as LeBron ... KAJ won three straight NCAA championships and forced college basketball to BAN DUNKING!).

KAJ went to 10 finals, won 6. LeBron went to 10, won 4. KAJ is longevity at is finest (like LeBron). KAJ is all time leader in points at the moment ... 3rd all time in rebounds ... 3rd all time in blocks (would be 1st but didn't count stat his first 3-4 years) ... just imagine if his insane dominance in college (THREE YEARS) he was able to put up some of those numbers in NBA?? KAJ 11 all-defensive teams to LeBron's 6.

KAJ, in 2dn year, won his first League MVP, Finals, and Finals MVP. Swept a Bullets team with HOF Earl Monroe and Wes Unseld. And that's a pretty big juxtaposition imo between KAJ and LeBron that goes in KAJ favor. Every Finals appearance (win or loss) was against multiple hall of famers, and against teams that WON rings.

1971 - WIN - sweep - Bullets (Monroe/Unseld) .. AND beat Wilt Chamberlain led dominate Lakers that went to 5 Finals in 6 years.
1974 - LOSS - (7 games) - Celtics (3 HOF Cowens/Havlicheck/Jojo White in their prime)
1980 - WIN - 4-2 - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)
1982 - WIN - 4-2 - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)
1983 - LOSS - (sweep) - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)
1984 - LOSS - (7 games) - Celtics (Bird/Parish/McHale/Johnson)
1985 - WIN - 4-2 - Celtics (Bird/Parish/McHale/Johnson)
1987 - WIN 4-2 - Celtics (Bird/Parish/McHale/Johnson)
1988 - WIN - 7 games - Pistons (IT/Dumars/Rodman)
1989 - LOSS - (sweep) - Pistons (IT/Dumars/Rodman)

KAJ and LeBron both had multiple battles with specific teams.
KAJ was 2-1 vs Dr. J's 76ers, then 2-1 against Bird's Celts.
LeBron was 1-3 vs GS, and 1-2 vs. Duncan's Spurs (with some time separating first loss)
KAJs other two wins came against a Bad Boys Piston team and pretty top-heavy Bullets team.
LeBron's other two wins came against and young OKC (could have been fire, but honestly they never went to Finals before or after) ... and this one against a Heat whose 2nd and 3rd best players were 3rd year Bam and rookie Tyler Herro.

They both went on similar runs (KAJ 8 finals in 10 years ... LeBron 9 in 10 years). KAJ actually has 6 league MVPs, LeBron has 4 (granted, as Doug stats when you are at the level these guys are the MVP is sort of irrelevant because LeBron and Jordan deserve much more)


In my opinion, I think the gap between KAJ and LeBron is closer (and maybe just more similar) than between MJ and LeBron. Honestly I'd respect more the people stanning for LeBron if they were also questioning the debate about MJ and KAJ even before LeBron. But if you posed a 1-2-3 ranked-choice voting for GOAT to 100 people (1) I bet hardly anyone is ranking Jordan 3rd in their list, and (2) at least 5 out of 10 probably putting him 1st ... so I'd wager pretty heavily he's "GOAT" after that tally.

(side note: some like to add in off the court influence to this conversation ... which is a very interesting convo as well that can go many directions. But for those that want to introduce it in favor of LeBron ... then they need to look up the history because KAJ is miles and miles ahead of everyone possibly in all sports on the subject!! My man!)
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#48 » by 2018C3 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:11 am

Mj was more dominate in the same amount of games played as James. Before James won this last championship he had already played in 193 more games than MJ's entire career including Washington, Thats 2 entire seasons!

Mj did much more in far less time.

If you consider career stats, James will most likely win out by a large margin before his time is done. If you look at pure dominance over a period of time MJ is not matched by James.

Both are great players. One guy got the team who drafted him 6 championships, the other guy got the team who drafted him just one.

At 34 Mj had already retired twice. James just won his 4th title at 35, and also started his NBA career two year earlier than MJ did.

If both were in the same draft, who would you pick? The correct choice is clear.

By the time MJ was 34, hardly anyone was even debating who the greatest ever was. Pretty much every one knew. At that point He accomplished his entire legacy in just 930 games, that's 335 games less than James has played so far today, (or approximately 4 less complete seasons of play).

MJ dominated his competition in a way James will never be able to match.

James is the obvious 2nd best player I have ever watched in my lifetime, but MJ was still that much better.

I have a hard time even trying to toss earlier guys into the mix like Wilt, Kareem, or Russell. All of there primes were before my time. I can just comment on the guys I was able to watch in my own time.

Before MJ, I remember Wilt was considered by many to be the Goat.

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#49 » by troza » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:15 am

RastaBull wrote:
1983 - LOSS - (sweep) - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)


Moses Malone?

RastaBull wrote:In my opinion, I think the gap between KAJ and LeBron is closer (and maybe just more similar) than between MJ and LeBron. Honestly I'd respect more the people stanning for LeBron if they were also questioning the debate about MJ and KAJ even before LeBron.


This is why I don't take seriously the argument for longevity and most of their arguments.

If longevity was so important, those guys would have Jabbar as goat since a long long time ago. But it isn't. They just sound like IT when he said during the 98 playoffs that Jordan was the best ever and now says otherwise.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#50 » by ThreeMileAllan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:41 am

RastaBull wrote:
RastaBull wrote:I like to first acknowledge LeBron as one of the top 3 greatest players in NBA history. For me it took a while for him to get into that threshold. After Miami, he was still no where near the Jordan debate. 5 finals, appearances, a domination of a league, everything a LeBron superfan would want to throw out there at that point was ver very valid. But it was valid as to how LeBron stacks up with someone like Kobe's excellence. He wasn't close to Jordan obviously.

Going back to Cleveland was a big move that at the end pushed him his legacy a huge step forward. The four more appearances do a little; they are ECF champs, but really 4 appearances doesn't mean that much by itself. That one Cleveland championships was career defining. It really is one of the greatest rings for an individual lead player of all time. Had LeBron not gone to Finals any of those 3 other years with Cleveland, that one win would still have the same effect on me.

Which was to clearly elevate him over Kobe.

Now, looking at his career, imo he is clearly elevated over Magic. They are so similar in their dominance, their influence, but in the Magic-LeBron comparison LeBron's longevity at the very top height is undeniably a difference maker.

Bill Russell is always in my top 4, but it's kind of like he a separate space for him that not analogous or comparable with the rest because it was such a different league.

So LeBron is absolutely part of the Jordan, Kareem debate. And honestly, it's made me think that at end of the day it's just reality that Jordan can be the GOAT ... but it's not the clear runaway GOAT conversation I grew up thinking it was. And it's not just LeBron ... but more of us should be listening to those old bball heads that want to make argument that Kareem is the GOAT (not that you have to agree, but it's def good to hear it out).

Respect your evaluation and OP Doug, so not to sidetrack. But one thing I always ask now for those LeBron-GOAT supporters, is to forget about Jordan (like forget he ever existed, or let's act like we concede he's not even part of the debate anymore) ... how do you make the argument that LeBron is the GOAT of Kareem?


Kareem and LeBron are really really interesting debate and comparison. Both dominated the league early, both came in with SUPREME expectations (honestly, Kareem might be the only one close to the same as LeBron ... KAJ won three straight NCAA championships and forced college basketball to BAN DUNKING!).

KAJ went to 10 finals, won 6. LeBron went to 10, won 4. KAJ is longevity at is finest (like LeBron). KAJ is all time leader in points at the moment ... 3rd all time in rebounds ... 3rd all time in blocks (would be 1st but didn't count stat his first 3-4 years) ... just imagine if his insane dominance in college (THREE YEARS) he was able to put up some of those numbers in NBA?? KAJ 11 all-defensive teams to LeBron's 6.

KAJ, in 2dn year, won his first League MVP, Finals, and Finals MVP. Swept a Bullets team with HOF Earl Monroe and Wes Unseld. And that's a pretty big juxtaposition imo between KAJ and LeBron that goes in KAJ favor. Every Finals appearance (win or loss) was against multiple hall of famers, and against teams that WON rings.

1971 - WIN - sweep - Bullets (Monroe/Unseld) .. AND beat Wilt Chamberlain led dominate Lakers that went to 5 Finals in 6 years.
1974 - LOSS - (7 games) - Celtics (3 HOF Cowens/Havlicheck/Jojo White in their prime)
1980 - WIN - 4-2 - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)
1982 - WIN - 4-2 - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)
1983 - LOSS - (sweep) - 76ers (Dr. J/Cheeks)
1984 - LOSS - (7 games) - Celtics (Bird/Parish/McHale/Johnson)
1985 - WIN - 4-2 - Celtics (Bird/Parish/McHale/Johnson)
1987 - WIN 4-2 - Celtics (Bird/Parish/McHale/Johnson)
1988 - WIN - 7 games - Pistons (IT/Dumars/Rodman)
1989 - LOSS - (sweep) - Pistons (IT/Dumars/Rodman)

KAJ and LeBron both had multiple battles with specific teams.
KAJ was 2-1 vs Dr. J's 76ers, then 2-1 against Bird's Celts.
LeBron was 1-3 vs GS, and 1-2 vs. Duncan's Spurs (with some time separating first loss)
KAJs other two wins came against a Bad Boys Piston team and pretty top-heavy Bullets team.
LeBron's other two wins came against and young OKC (could have been fire, but honestly they never went to Finals before or after) ... and this one against a Heat whose 2nd and 3rd best players were 3rd year Bam and rookie Tyler Herro.

They both went on similar runs (KAJ 8 finals in 10 years ... LeBron 9 in 10 years). KAJ actually has 6 league MVPs, LeBron has 4 (granted, as Doug stats when you are at the level these guys are the MVP is sort of irrelevant because LeBron and Jordan deserve much more)


In my opinion, I think the gap between KAJ and LeBron is closer (and maybe just more similar) than between MJ and LeBron. Honestly I'd respect more the people stanning for LeBron if they were also questioning the debate about MJ and KAJ even before LeBron. But if you posed a 1-2-3 ranked-choice voting for GOAT to 100 people (1) I bet hardly anyone is ranking Jordan 3rd in their list, and (2) at least 5 out of 10 probably putting him 1st ... so I'd wager pretty heavily he's "GOAT" after that tally.

(side note: some like to add in off the court influence to this conversation ... which is a very interesting convo as well that can go many directions. But for those that want to introduce it in favor of LeBron ... then they need to look up the history because KAJ is miles and miles ahead of everyone possibly in all sports on the subject!! My man!)
Can you please cross-post this in a new thread to the Player Comparison board? I would like to see a strictly KAJ/LBJ debate with no Jordan mention at all.

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#51 » by Ice Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:20 pm

I will say, Bulls fans have unwittingly boosted LeBron's case. To some extent, the LeBron claim rests on the argument that Jordan couldn't win without Pippen, as if Scottie was a KD level talent, rather than being just the outstanding second banana that he was. Like Jimmy Butler (there, I wrote it again), Scottie was a great second option and with the right ensemble team he could have won a title as being the team's best player. But some modern fans have the idea that Scottie Pippen was at the level of Anthony Davis. No, he was not. Mike didn't have *that* level of help.

And Toni Kukoc wasn't an NBA great and Horace Grant was a nice power forward, but very much a borderline All Star.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#52 » by wickywack » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:34 pm

I think the idea of a single GOAT is ... weird. The game has changed so much over time. If you're the GOAT, do you need to be the greatest if you're dropped into the early 60s when there was no 3pt line and many normal ball handling moves would be called traveling? There's a reason centers dominated back then. Is it fair to compare longevity when players in the past flew commercial, had back-to-back-to-back nights, relatively limited health care / training, no load management, and a more physical game? Or, heck, take the international game, where the rules are subtly different and some NBA players map better than others.

I don't think other team sports have a consensus GOAT.

I don't *think* there was a consensus GOAT in the NBA before Jordan - perhaps before Jordan's 2nd three-peat. In the future, there probably won't be a consensus GOAT again. Maybe it'll be Lebron. If not, someone else. But I don't think they'll supplant Jordan, I just they'll remove/reduce the unusual consensus we've had on Jordan.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#53 » by troza » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:15 pm

wickywack wrote:I think the idea of a single GOAT is ... weird. The game has changed so much over time. If you're the GOAT, do you need to be the greatest if you're dropped into the early 60s when there was no 3pt line and many normal ball handling moves would be called traveling? There's a reason centers dominated back then. Is it fair to compare longevity when players in the past flew commercial, had back-to-back-to-back nights, relatively limited health care / training, no load management, and a more physical game? Or, heck, take the international game, where the rules are subtly different and some NBA players map better than others.

I don't think other team sports have a consensus GOAT.

I don't *think* there was a consensus GOAT in the NBA before Jordan - perhaps before Jordan's 2nd three-peat. In the future, there probably won't be a consensus GOAT again. Maybe it'll be Lebron. If not, someone else. But I don't think they'll supplant Jordan, I just they'll remove/reduce the unusual consensus we've had on Jordan.


As Jordan happened, there will be a time when someone will surpass him in a way that we weren't expected. There will be a time when people will look for a player, even if the expectation is Jordan, and he will surpass that.

I agree that consensus GOAT might not be a thing from now on but, in my opinion, we saw players getting close to him or even more or less in the same level (I would say that since he retired we can talk about 4 players that have hardware, stats and some myth around them that made/make people compare: Shaq, Kobe, Tim Duncan and Lebron) but no one clearly surpassed Jordan.

The same way Jordan didn't had to break Wilts records or win as much as Russel... with the game constantly changing I believe that there will be a player doing things that were never done, dominating at a level at least similar to Jordan with better stats or dominating more than Jordan (Bill Russel existed so it is possible) with similar stats and will have some kind of myth around him that will make us amazed by his game.

It happened in the past, it will happen in the future. If people do what they do about Lebron and did about Kobe that, in the eyes of many, simply reached a zone close to Jordan... when someone appears doing even better... We might have a new general consensus (meaning that there will be some people still defending the past players but not many).

Oh... and I think that enough time must pass by for people to actually start forgetting Michael Jordan or the game makes the 90s look so weird or that guy must be bigger than the game like only Jordan is/was. Because I believe that this comparisons done time and time again is also an effort to get that casual fan that knew nothing about basket but tuned in to see Jordan... and left when he left. Everyone knew Michael Jordan was the best even if they never saw him.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#54 » by drosestruts » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:38 pm

I have a pretty easy time with this simply due to the fact that I believe all athletes are always getting better.

We know this to be true in individual sports, no one thinks Michael Johnson and Jesse Owens is better than Usain Bolt.

So for me a simple belief that athletes are always getting better makes stating LeBron is better than MJ an easy call for me. In 20 years, someone or multiple someones will have surpassed LeBron.

This is the same for me across every sport. We have Joe Young and Dan Marino, then we had Manning and Brady, now we have Mahomes. The bar just keeps getting raised. In Baseball guys like Mike Trout are elevating the levels of play to things the past greats couldn't imagine, and they're doing it against tougher pitching, better fielding, etc etc.


On a whole other tangent, I feel like Jordan worshipping is actually bad for the sport in general. When you watch a Cheifs game you don't hear to announcers or studio analysts constantly talking about - he's no Brady or Marino - whoever. NFL announcers and analysts hype up Mahomes has much watch TV and they're telling you he's on a level we've never seen before.

These playoffs were amazing - The Donovan Mitchell and Murray scoring explosions! Jimmy Butler leading the Heat to the finals. Tatum had some amazing games for Boston and looks to be expanding his level of play. Doncic had huge moments. And next year we get Curry, KD and Irving back in action!

Shows like the Jump should be talking about how we're entering another golden era of basketball but instead it's the tired old MJ vs LeBron nonsense.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#55 » by Ice Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm

drosestruts wrote:We know this to be true in individual sports, no one thinks Michael Johnson and Jesse Owens is better than Usain Bolt.


Hmmm. Only one person has ever run the 200 meters faster than Michael Johnson did in the Nineties and only one has run the 400 meters faster. Because those weren't the same person, MJ remains the best 200/400 combo runner in history. The 1500 meters world record is from 1998. Only one person has ever run the 800 meters faster than Wilson Kipeter did in 1997. The 400 meters world record is from 1992.

I don't think that basketball athletes are one better than they were back in the Nineties, although to be sure they are more reliably fit and strong, because their off season training and diets are more serious than they were back in the day.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#56 » by weneeda2guard » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:12 pm

another aspect to this argument not spoken of much

is level of coaching jordan had to overcome in comparison to what lebron has had to go through. jordan had to overcome some all time great coaching. jeff van gundy, pat riley on 2 different teams, lenny wilkins, larry bird, jerry sloan, george karl, chuck daley,

outside of doc rivers who beat lebron then lost to lebron with a older team, greg pop who is 2-1 vs lebron maybe we can say steve kerr? where is the all time great coaching lebron had to get through to win it all?
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#57 » by troza » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:21 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:another aspect to this argument not spoken of much

is level of coaching jordan had to overcome in comparison to what lebron has had to go through. jordan had to overcome some all time great coaching. jeff van gundy, pat riley on 2 different teams, lenny wilkins, larry bird, jerry sloan, george karl, chuck daley,

outside of doc rivers who beat lebron then lost to lebron with a older team, greg pop who is 2-1 vs lebron maybe we can say steve kerr? where is the all time great coaching lebron had to get through to win it all?


Spo, Kerr, Popovich, Carlile... I would say that Lebron also faced some good coaches along the way. Maybe just Pat Riley and Pop will be in the best ever discussion... Kerr will have to show what happens after the Warriors experience is gone but I'm pretty sure he will also be. I won't consider Doc Rivers... he won with a super deep and star stud Celtics team. And he should have won the 2010 NBA Finals while he keeps showing more failures than successes with teams that make us expect success.

Jordan also faced good teams with not so great coaches (Mike Dunleavy comes to my mind) or were good but not great (mainly in the finals of the 1st 3-peat)... Lebron faced one like that on the Thunder on the finals... Maybe the edge here isn't on Jordan side... still, the quality of the coaches are often looked by what they win and Jordan made sure some of them won nothing.
Am2626
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#58 » by Am2626 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:36 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:To begin,I won't go as far as others to say lebron can NEVER surpass jordan. Records are made to be broken.For a period of time i thought no one would ever jump higher than jordan, then Vince Carter happened. Lebron can surpass jordan. A few more titles more dominant numbers and if he goes through the elite of the league the nets clippers warriors etc once they tool back up. So it can happen.

But as of right now, lebron is def NOT the goat and honestly for me I dont even have him top 3. But def not better than jordan.

There are a lot of reasons many posted already but I'll go through my main reasons

Jordan was the ultimate 2 way player. Lebron stopped playing defense years ago. For as much as lebron is praised for his defense in 4th quarters on smaller rose and now smaller Jamal Murray nobody wants to mention lebron literally running from the responsibility of defending kawhi durant and now jimmy his contemporaries in this era. Lebron literally ran and hid in a corner 2 years in a row from durant. Jordan always took the best player on the opposing team especially if they were at his position. Dont give me the magic Johnson retort 1. Magic was not at jordans position 2. Jordan wanted to defend magic Phil overruled it. 3. Magic was covered by pippen so they could defend him 94 feet and try to get the ball out of magics hand earlier in the lakers offense to prevent their back cuts and fast breaks and most of the time the player helping once magic crossed half court was Jordan. Not to mention it was still many possessions Jordan defended magic. But on the defensive end, their is no comparison Jordan was 10x better

Lebron has lost more series as a favorite than Jordan. Jordan has never lost a series as a favorite in the sense of having home court advantage better record etc. Once the bulls got home court advantage over the Pistons they put them down. Even that Orlando series the magic had home court advantage. Lebron has lost several series with home court advantage with more talented teams. Some of the worst losses vs Orlando, vs Boston, vs Dallas, vs the spurs. Jordan has never had a melt down in a series that lebron had vs Dallas. Honestly lebron had melt downs vs Boston and the spurs too its just harder to notice because lebron did a lot of stat padding down the stretch of those games and I remember us calling it out.

Jordan has beat more 55 win, 60 win teams than lebron.

Jordan has beaten more teams with more all stars than lebron and was in the east dominating it when the east was the better conference. You would be hard pressed finding 1 clear hall of famer lebron got through in the east. Outside of that older celtics team.

Lebron being scared as hell of that free throw line late. Jordan embraced that pressure. Its no telling how many games we won just on the back of under a minute game within a few points Jordan driving to the rim forcing the refs to make the call going to the line late and nailing 2-4 free throws. Lebron is still scared of that scenario and avoids it at all cost.

The superteam template was started by lebron and has hurt the competitive balance in the league. Lebron apologist sell this as "who needed help" there is a difference between getting "help" and joining forces with guys who were already top 10 players all stars and out -talenting the rest of the league. Jordan faced teams that were just as loaded as the bulls but Jordan was the x factor and Jordan being better and the Ultimate closer sealed the fate of the other team. Lebron been facing teams that are not close to as loaded as his and it seems everytime he is confronted with equal talent he loses.

Those are my main reasons.


I agree that records are made to be broken and someone may eventually end up being a better player than Jordan but that person won’t be LeBron. This is because in two instances LeBron has lost when his team was the clear favorite. This is the 2011 Finals loss to Dallas and when they lost to the Spurs in 2014 in 5 games. It also took luck for them to beat the Spurs the year before. I don’t see any possible way that LeBron can overcome those things and finish better than Jordan.

If Jordan never retires and plays his career throughout there wouldn’t even be a discussion here.

I will say that LeBron will go down as the second greatest player of all time though.
CashConsider
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#59 » by CashConsider » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:00 pm

I hate the comparisons, to be honest. Both are extremely good players that played in extremely different eras. You don't think MJ's longevity was impacted at all by the way more physical league? Part of the rules benefit that Lebron gets is because of what that era was.

A lot is made about Jordan leaving because of the attention he was getting and all that stress. Jordan legit was carrying the league to new heights. Teams and the NBA learned better how to protect their players because of what Jordan went through.

In so many ways Jordan blazed the trail that Lebron was able to follow. That simplified thing.

And to other posters, yes KAJ does not get enough attention in this talk. But I just discount him because Isiah says he is :)
troza
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#60 » by troza » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:16 pm

CashConsider wrote:I hate the comparisons, to be honest. Both are extremely good players that played in extremely different eras. You don't think MJ's longevity was impacted at all by the way more physical league? Part of the rules benefit that Lebron gets is because of what that era was.


I would say that part of the rules that benefit Lebron is because the NBA was wanting to replicate Jordan and it was super hard. Give perimeter players more power, mainly when the bigs started to change.

They wanted more points, the game to be more attractive but while Jordan was there, even with low scoring games, the game was at the peak of its popularity.

CashConsider wrote:And to other posters, yes KAJ does not get enough attention in this talk. But I just discount him because Isiah says he is :)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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