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LeBron vs Jordan

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#61 » by CashConsider » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:19 pm

troza wrote:
CashConsider wrote:I hate the comparisons, to be honest. Both are extremely good players that played in extremely different eras. You don't think MJ's longevity was impacted at all by the way more physical league? Part of the rules benefit that Lebron gets is because of what that era was.


I would say that part of the rules that benefit Lebron is because the NBA was wanting to replicate Jordan and it was super hard. Give perimeter players more power, mainly when the bigs started to change.

They wanted more points, the game to be more attractive but while Jordan was there, even with low scoring games, the game was at the peak of its popularity.

CashConsider wrote:And to other posters, yes KAJ does not get enough attention in this talk. But I just discount him because Isiah says he is :)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You are absolutely correct. The league recognized the power of the star earlier than others, and so they leveraged that so much to grow the league.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#62 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:26 pm

otwok wrote:This is my take. Lebron is an amazing basketball player. He is hands down the second greatest basketball player I have ever seen play. Jordan is the first. There is just so much aside from stats, finals appearances whatever. You never thought Jordan was going to lose. He beat HoF players after HoF players and never once did you think "man, I'm worried that Karl Malone will single handedly take over this series." Or never did you think "it's very possible that the person guarding Jordan is going to outplay him and win finals mvp."

Those who just say stuff like 6/6 for jordan they are really undermining how great Jordan really was at the game of basketball. Now we can talk about eras and what not, that's fine but Jordan had a trait that wasn't defined by era. It was straight "I'm going to beat you. I don't care how or when." Once Jordan got to the top of the mountain the only player that took Jordan down was - Jordan. Nobody else. That's what GOATs do. HoF players that won championships during Jordan's reign? Just his teammates. For Lebron - it's not the same.

Lebron fans say things like Lebron never had the help. Well that's not true. In fact he had more help than Jordan. And even if it was true - aside from his first stint in Cleveland, Lebron literally picked his teams. He chose to go to Miami and team up with Wade and Bosh, and when they were losing it was "Lebron doesn't have help" then he chose to go back to Cleveland and play with Kyrie and whoever they were going to trade Wiggins for (Love) and when they were losing it was "he doesn't have help" and he chose to play with the Lakers and when they didn't make the playoffs it was "Lebron was hurt, doesn't have help" and then when they get Anthony Davis it's "All Lebron, he doesn't need a sidekick."

Lebron cries that he wants his damn respect, Jordan just takes it and beats it out of you. That is the major difference between the two. And my high school basketball coach used to tell us Mental is to Physical as two is to one and that reigns true in this debate.


Hahaha

Your coach was soft. J/K

No joke this had me cracking up - my high school coach had the exact same saying but 4 to 1.
What is happiness? It's a moment before you need more happiness.” — Don Draper
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#63 » by weneeda2guard » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:27 pm

troza wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:another aspect to this argument not spoken of much

is level of coaching jordan had to overcome in comparison to what lebron has had to go through. jordan had to overcome some all time great coaching. jeff van gundy, pat riley on 2 different teams, lenny wilkins, larry bird, jerry sloan, george karl, chuck daley,

outside of doc rivers who beat lebron then lost to lebron with a older team, greg pop who is 2-1 vs lebron maybe we can say steve kerr? where is the all time great coaching lebron had to get through to win it all?


Spo, Kerr, Popovich, Carlile... I would say that Lebron also faced some good coaches along the way. Maybe just Pat Riley and Pop will be in the best ever discussion... Kerr will have to show what happens after the Warriors experience is gone but I'm pretty sure he will also be. I won't consider Doc Rivers... he won with a super deep and star stud Celtics team. And he should have won the 2010 NBA Finals while he keeps showing more failures than successes with teams that make us expect success.

Jordan also faced good teams with not so great coaches (Mike Dunleavy comes to my mind) or were good but not great (mainly in the finals of the 1st 3-peat)... Lebron faced one like that on the Thunder on the finals... Maybe the edge here isn't on Jordan side... still, the quality of the coaches are often looked by what they win and Jordan made sure some of them won nothing.

Spo had no kind of team yet and lebron gets very little props beating jimmy and nobody as the 2nd and 3rd bestnplayers were injured or hobbled and they still lost 2 to the heat after most predicted the lakers would sweep.

Lebron has a losing record vs the other 3 great coaches you posted. Add in doc rivers and its worst

Before lebron joined wade he got dropped twice to Boston. In 2010 Cleveland had home court advantage and lost to Boston. He lost to Carlisle who had a much weaker roster than the heat and the heat had home court advantage. He 1-2 vs Greg pop and one of those series the heat had home court advantage and got ran out the gym. And he has a losing record vs kerr. But I wouldn't consider kerr a all time great coach at this point.

I think the point or this is lebron has had the benefit of mediocre coaching to go against as well.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#64 » by weneeda2guard » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:29 pm

And for the record I see a lot of people conceding to lebron being 2nd all time. I still don't have lebron over Duncan Kareem magic or kobe I got lebron 6th.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#65 » by otwok » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:46 pm

JohnnyKILLroy wrote:
otwok wrote:This is my take. Lebron is an amazing basketball player. He is hands down the second greatest basketball player I have ever seen play. Jordan is the first. There is just so much aside from stats, finals appearances whatever. You never thought Jordan was going to lose. He beat HoF players after HoF players and never once did you think "man, I'm worried that Karl Malone will single handedly take over this series." Or never did you think "it's very possible that the person guarding Jordan is going to outplay him and win finals mvp."

Those who just say stuff like 6/6 for jordan they are really undermining how great Jordan really was at the game of basketball. Now we can talk about eras and what not, that's fine but Jordan had a trait that wasn't defined by era. It was straight "I'm going to beat you. I don't care how or when." Once Jordan got to the top of the mountain the only player that took Jordan down was - Jordan. Nobody else. That's what GOATs do. HoF players that won championships during Jordan's reign? Just his teammates. For Lebron - it's not the same.

Lebron fans say things like Lebron never had the help. Well that's not true. In fact he had more help than Jordan. And even if it was true - aside from his first stint in Cleveland, Lebron literally picked his teams. He chose to go to Miami and team up with Wade and Bosh, and when they were losing it was "Lebron doesn't have help" then he chose to go back to Cleveland and play with Kyrie and whoever they were going to trade Wiggins for (Love) and when they were losing it was "he doesn't have help" and he chose to play with the Lakers and when they didn't make the playoffs it was "Lebron was hurt, doesn't have help" and then when they get Anthony Davis it's "All Lebron, he doesn't need a sidekick."

Lebron cries that he wants his damn respect, Jordan just takes it and beats it out of you. That is the major difference between the two. And my high school basketball coach used to tell us Mental is to Physical as two is to one and that reigns true in this debate.


Hahaha

Your coach was soft. J/K

No joke this had me cracking up - my high school coach had the exact same saying but 4 to 1.


Did you go to Western High School?
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#66 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:58 pm

otwok wrote:
JohnnyKILLroy wrote:
otwok wrote:This is my take. Lebron is an amazing basketball player. He is hands down the second greatest basketball player I have ever seen play. Jordan is the first. There is just so much aside from stats, finals appearances whatever. You never thought Jordan was going to lose. He beat HoF players after HoF players and never once did you think "man, I'm worried that Karl Malone will single handedly take over this series." Or never did you think "it's very possible that the person guarding Jordan is going to outplay him and win finals mvp."

Those who just say stuff like 6/6 for jordan they are really undermining how great Jordan really was at the game of basketball. Now we can talk about eras and what not, that's fine but Jordan had a trait that wasn't defined by era. It was straight "I'm going to beat you. I don't care how or when." Once Jordan got to the top of the mountain the only player that took Jordan down was - Jordan. Nobody else. That's what GOATs do. HoF players that won championships during Jordan's reign? Just his teammates. For Lebron - it's not the same.

Lebron fans say things like Lebron never had the help. Well that's not true. In fact he had more help than Jordan. And even if it was true - aside from his first stint in Cleveland, Lebron literally picked his teams. He chose to go to Miami and team up with Wade and Bosh, and when they were losing it was "Lebron doesn't have help" then he chose to go back to Cleveland and play with Kyrie and whoever they were going to trade Wiggins for (Love) and when they were losing it was "he doesn't have help" and he chose to play with the Lakers and when they didn't make the playoffs it was "Lebron was hurt, doesn't have help" and then when they get Anthony Davis it's "All Lebron, he doesn't need a sidekick."

Lebron cries that he wants his damn respect, Jordan just takes it and beats it out of you. That is the major difference between the two. And my high school basketball coach used to tell us Mental is to Physical as two is to one and that reigns true in this debate.


Hahaha

Your coach was soft. J/K

No joke this had me cracking up - my high school coach had the exact same saying but 4 to 1.


Did you go to Western High School?


Dude I just got chills!!!!

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#67 » by bledredwine » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:04 pm

It's such a dumb comparison.

I feel far less confident winning a series with Lebron as team leader than quite a few other peak stars in history, and especially Jordan. The leadership and holding teammates accountable being part of the reason (Jordan making practices harder than games), the actual playing ability being the other reason. How many series did Jordan fail to do his part?

I’d like to reiterate that comparing stats is a faux pas. Jordan was more dominant... compare any series and the stats of all players on court- It becomes obvious. A PER of 30 was something unheard of an exclusively Jordan, prior to the statistic boom and opening up of the game for free drives and no touching or a foul.

The league leader in triple doubles in the 90s was Kidd, Hill or Scottie with two to four triple doubles for the entire season. Really think about that.

Now you’ve got guys like Westbrook and Luca averaging triple doubles, Westbrook doing it for three seasons. The game has opened up bigtime. It's easy to slash and dish to the open man.
Still, Jordan’s playoff records look like a fantasy, similar to Wilt’s crazy stats seeming made up. For example, having 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring series averages of all time.. and all three other players existing in the time of the 33% statistical inflation Wilt era and all significantly less efficient than Jordan (exception: Bernard King who had an unreal series). I want that guy leading my teams.. not Lebron.

Now, what you CAN do is list stats in comparison to everyone else on the court to see who truly dominated the era.
So far, I’ve seen Lebron dominate as the clear best in only finals series with over-the-hill players (Spurs) it short youth (hobbled Steph).

Jordan, however, far outplayed all of Magic, Barkley, Clyde, Malone and Stockton... none were even close. In 1997, he was the only finals player in NBA history to win one with only one teammate in double digits. Scottie averaged 18 on 42 percent shooting. The rest were below 8 ppg. Meanwhile, Lebrons been basically equaled or even outplayed by Dirk, Wade, Terry, Durant two years, Jimmy this year... and saved from one championship less and another terrible choke by Allen’s miracle 3 off of Bosh’s rebound.

Context is everything.

Basically, I’ve never seen Lebron play at Jordan’s level of dominance. I’ve only seen him consistently dominate shorter younger players.

You know that raptors series where Lebron absolutely went off and many consider it his most dominant series? Jordan averaged those exact numbers, assists included for six playoffs straight earlier in his career.


For those of us who actually still watch Jordan games today, we know who the better player is. You take the guy who actually has the full package-

.... elite defense even in old age, can hit free throws, midrange shots, doesn’t constantly defer in the final moments and played against tall agressive veteran teams consistently throughout his career.

In 2009, Kobe was considered the best player in the league and Lebron himself said so. How he can go from that to GOAT is beyond me.

Oh, and for the (honestly tired) counterpoints-

Getting to the finals 9 times- weakest east of all time, and in Miami he had more stars on his squad than the entire conference of playoff teams. The best team he faced was probably our 11’ Bulls.

Constantly teaming up- I called that he’d have Kawhi or Davis in LA. Carried his squad? Ok... so why didn’t he even make the playoffs the year prior? Davis is a top five player. Miami had Jimmy and was a fifth seed with youngsters. Badboy Pistons would have kicked his butt, hard.
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dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
JH 20.6 PPG

LBJ 27% in the clutch in the Finals: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1651184
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#68 » by drosestruts » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:29 pm

Ice Man wrote:
drosestruts wrote:We know this to be true in individual sports, no one thinks Michael Johnson and Jesse Owens is better than Usain Bolt.


Hmmm. Only one person has ever run the 200 meters faster than Michael Johnson did in the Nineties and only one has run the 400 meters faster. Because those weren't the same person, MJ remains the best 200/400 combo runner in history. The 1500 meters world record is from 1998. Only one person has ever run the 800 meters faster than Wilson Kipeter did in 1997. The 400 meters world record is from 1992.

I don't think that basketball athletes are one better than they were back in the Nineties, although to be sure they are more reliably fit and strong, because their off season training and diets are more serious than they were back in the day.


So you agree, someone has gotten faster than Michael Johnson.

Also not aligned on some of the other dates you shared below, the current 400m record was set in 2016 by Wayde van Niekerk, the guy who you above pointed out as run it faster than Michael Johnson.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#69 » by Ice Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:32 pm

bledredwine wrote:Jordan, however, far outplayed all of Magic, Barkley, Clyde, Malone and Stockton... none were even close.


Plus Bird during the mid Eighties playoffs, although Mike's team lost. At any rate, I did the work and here are all the times when Mike or LeBron were outplayed by somebody in the same playoff series (using Average Game Scores).

Mike -

1996 Finals - Shawn Kemp


LeBron -

2006 First Round - Gilbert Arenas
2007 Finals - Tony Parker
2007 Finals - Tim Duncan
2007 Finals - Manu Ginobli
2008 Second Ground - Kevin Garnett
2011 Finals - Dwayne Wade
2011 Finals - Dirk Nowitski
2017 Finals - Kevin Durant
2020 First Round - Anthony Davis
2020 Second Round - James Harden
2020 Eastern Finals - Anthony Davis
2020 Finals - Jimmy Butler
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#70 » by otwok » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:56 pm

JohnnyKILLroy wrote:
otwok wrote:
JohnnyKILLroy wrote:
Hahaha

Your coach was soft. J/K

No joke this had me cracking up - my high school coach had the exact same saying but 4 to 1.


Did you go to Western High School?


Dude I just got chills!!!!

HOFFMAN!!!!!


Haha. I had Coach Aiahara. Not sure if he's still there. Woot!
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#71 » by othawhitemeat » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:57 pm

bledredwine wrote:I’d like to reiterate that comparing stats is a faux pas.

The league leader in triple doubles in the 90s was Kidd Hillor Scottie with two to four for the entire season. Now you’ve got guys like Westbrook and Luca averagingtruple doubles, Westbrook doing it for three seasons. The game has opened up bigtime.
Still, Jordan’s playoff records look like a joke, similar to Wilt’s crazy stats seeming made up.

What you CAN do is list stats in comparison to everyone else on the court to see who dominated.

So far, I’ve seen Lebron dominate as the clear best in only finals series with over-the-hill players (Spurs) it short youth (hobbled Steph).

Jordan, however, far outplayed all of Magic, Barkley, Clyde, Malone and Stockton... none were even close. In 1997, he was the only finals player in NBA history to win one with only one teammate in double digits. Scottie averaged 18 on 42 percent shooting. The rest were below 8 ppg. Meanwhile, Lebrons been basically equaled or even outplayed by Dirk, Wade, Terry, Durant two years, Jimmy this year... and saved from one championship less and another terrible choke by Allen’s miracle 3 off of Bosh’s rebound.

Context is everything.

Basically, I’ve never seen Lebron play at Jordan’s level of dominance. I’ve only seen him consistently dominate shorter younger players.

You know that raptors series where Lebron absolutely went off and many consider it his most dominant series? Jordan averaged those exact numbers, assists included for six playoffs straight earlier in his career.


For those of us who actually still watch Jordan games today, we know who the better player is. You take the guy who actually has the full package-

.... elite defense even in old age, can hit free throws, midrange shots, doesn’t constantly defer in the final moments and played against tall agressive veteran teams consistently throughout his career.

In 2009, Kobe was considered the best player in the league and Lebron himself said so. How he can go from that to GOAT is beyond me.

Oh, and for the (honestly tired) counterpoints-

Getting to the finals 9 times- weakest east of all time, and in Miami he had more stars on his squad than the entire conference of playoff teams. The best team he faced was probably our 11’ Bulls.

Constantly teaming up- I called that he’d have Kawhi or Davis in LA. Carried his squad? Ok... so why didn’t he even make the playoffs the year prior? Davis is a top five player. Miami had Jimmy and was a fifth seed with youngsters. Badboy Pistons would have kicked his butt, hard.


People think I am crazy for saying Lebron is not even 2nd best to me. You just painted why. Longevity and stats, Lebron is a beast, but dominating when it counts most, he has shied and relied on another star to help him carry through. Never worried about that with Bird, Kobe (post Shaq), Magic (even with Kareem), etc...
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#72 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:38 pm

otwok wrote:
JohnnyKILLroy wrote:
otwok wrote:
Did you go to Western High School?


Dude I just got chills!!!!

HOFFMAN!!!!!


Haha. I had Coach Aiahara. Not sure if he's still there. Woot!


I had Aihara also!!!

Aihara is Hoffman’s disciple. At Marina HS the ratio Was 4 to 1 because we definitely were softer than Western kids. Hoffman lasted a season and then got forced out for being “too Bobby Knight”

“Weed out the weak” was also a standard under those guys.

Shaved heads / shirts and ties on game day / balls out always.

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#73 » by HoopsterJones » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:50 pm

If MJ never retired early twice, the gap between them would be a bigger than it is now. I got Lebron as #2 on my all time list, but he’s getting closer.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#74 » by R3AL1TY » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:38 pm

To me the debate shouldn't even be with MJ. The debate should be why folks got him over Kareem, Wilt, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Malone, and even Isiah Thomas, Harden and KD? Even Giannis is on a projection to pass him stat wise outside of assists and 3 pt %.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#75 » by bledredwine » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:54 pm

I agree with R3AL1TY.

For the record, I would choose all of the following players over Lebron if I have to pick one to win, with a roll of the dice as to which era we are placed in

1. Jordan (clearly)
2. Bird (assuming healthy)
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. This is where Lebron starts getting serious consideration and likely wins out, against Magic and Shaq, but for me personally, loses to Hakeem. And he also never was as dominant as finals Shaq, who was the only player to contest Jordan, in that regard.

Lebron is simply not competent enough as a scorer. As a matter of fact, he's incredibly flawed as a scorer. Yes- you've read that right. He averages a miserable 37.5 percent from beyond 3 feet. It gets even worse in the playoffs. That coupled with his poor free throw shooting, there's a reason he's been known by half fans to be clutch and half say he's not clutch at all.
Video explains everything here -

It starts around 24:30, 22:30 if you want the full point


26:45 - dispelling the myth of Lebron being clutch.

If you really think that Lebron's getting to the rim that easily in the 80s or 90s, then I suggest going back and watching the way the game operated back then. Not only was Jordan, well, Jordan... but he's one of the best pure shooters to ever play and easily the best midrange shooter (backed up by stats in the midrange thread on the PC forum where even 2nd place Dirk couldn't get near Jordan's volume and efficiency combination).

Here's the issue- We've only seen Lebron dominate in the small ball era. He has not dominated the larger teams with the exception of that one excellent Detroit series back in what, 09. I am nearly positive that he'd struggle against an era with a clogged paint and more defensive allowance, which is all eras prior to the 00s. I also think that there's 0 chance he finishes top 5 in defensive player of the year voting with guys like Jordan, Pippen, Hakeem, Payton, Ewing, Alonzo, Dikembi around.... or in the 80s when Jordan won? They had Hakeem, Eaton, Cooper, Ewing, etc. These guys are all not just better... they're much better defenders than Lebron.

So what does Lebron really have over Jordan other than stats, which even that Jordan far surpasses in context?

We've seen Giannis, Steph, Westbrook, Lebron, Luka, Harden, and now even Jimmy put up GOAT quality stats. Include Kawhi if we're talking PER. After seeing what happened to Giannis and Jimmy equaling Lebron this series, it obviously doesn't mean much and certainly indicates a hyper inflated current game, statistically speaking
So what really.... is there to favor Lebron? Judging off of what everyone says on the other forums, basically excuses, "9 finals!" in the eastern conference, and then the claim that he somehow beat the GOAT team which, did not have Durant, and also did not have Steph, who was 2 games into the playoffs, playing terribly in the Rockets series, injured, and was the main reason they got 73 wins in the first place.

Bottom line -
Jordan's more clutch, has less holes in his game (or even none, TBH), has more championships, more accomplishments in quite a few less seasons and a retirement preventing more achievements, his teams had better winning records, and he defeated more 50 win teams. He even has the stats.
Image

dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
JH 20.6 PPG

LBJ 27% in the clutch in the Finals: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1651184
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#76 » by The Explorer » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:28 pm

In addition to accomplishing more, and having fewer blemishes on his resume, MJ was actually more skilled on the court than James. Here's a post I had on another thread.

Yes.

Jordan is better at several things.

Overall Scoring - Jordan
Overall Shooting - Jordan
Overall Defense - Jordan
Offensive post - Jordan
Handles - Jordan
Footwork - Jordan
Paint Shooting - Jordan
Drawing fouls - Jordan
FT shooting - Jordan
Finishing at the rim - Jordan
Steals - Jordan
Offensive consistency - Jordan
Defensive consistency - Jordan
Off the ball play - Jordan
Midrange - Jordan
Vertical - Jordan
Hangtime - Jordan
Durability - Jordan
Coachability - Jordan

Shot blocking - James
Defensive Rebounding - James
Strength - James
Passing - James



Overall Jordan is much better at basketball than James. And the team results and career prove this.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#77 » by The Explorer » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:33 pm

And to add, in a era dominated by big men, Jordan outshined them all as a small. Lebron struggled against bigs of his era including Dirk, Duncan, and Roy Hibbert!
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#78 » by othawhitemeat » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:41 pm

R3AL1TY wrote:To me the debate shouldn't even be with MJ. The debate should be why folks got him over Kareem, Wilt, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Malone, and even Isiah Thomas, Harden and KD? Even Giannis is on a projection to pass him stat wise outside of assists and 3 pt %.


Harden, KD, and Thomas? I don't know about that....The first ones yes, but Harden? Harden - what has he really done besides stat pad? There are times, I would legit take Butler in playoffs over Harden.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#79 » by R3AL1TY » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:00 pm

othawhitemeat wrote:
R3AL1TY wrote:To me the debate shouldn't even be with MJ. The debate should be why folks got him over Kareem, Wilt, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Malone, and even Isiah Thomas, Harden and KD? Even Giannis is on a projection to pass him stat wise outside of assists and 3 pt %.


Harden, KD, and Thomas? I don't know about that....The first ones yes, but Harden? Harden - what has he really done besides stat pad? There are times, I would legit take Butler in playoffs over Harden.

Harden and KD are better scorers than him. Speaking of stat padding with Harden, Lebron is guilty of the same thing. Isiah to me is a better passer, which Lebron excels in. I agree about Harden with the playoffs. But I have seen his fans argue that the refs screw him in the playoffs.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#80 » by DASMACKDOWN » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:11 am

The more interesting conversation hasn't been had yet. But it will in about 5 years.

That will be Luka Doncic.

Who already has a better start this career better than Lebron. I will even go as far as saying Luka will break all of Lebrons early career records in significantly less time.

He is my Darkhorse MVP for next season.
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