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LeBron vs Jordan

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#81 » by TheStig » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:22 am

HoopsterJones wrote:If MJ never retired early twice, the gap between them would be a bigger than it is now. I got Lebron as #2 on my all time list, but he’s getting closer.

But he did. And longevity has a role in this. One of the reasons that Bron has extended into the talk is his prolonged prime. If MJ hadn't retired early twice, I think he'd have a similarly long prime. Even in his last year in Chicago, he was still MVP. That is the same age Bron is now. He easily could have been great at least a couple more years.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#82 » by troza » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:55 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:The more interesting conversation hasn't been had yet. But it will in about 5 years.

That will be Luka Doncic.

Who already has a better start this career better than Lebron. I will even go as far as saying Luka will break all of Lebrons early career records in significantly less time.

He is my Darkhorse MVP for next season.


As an euro guy, I'm rooting for him. As long as he is there, Dallas will be my second favorite team in the NBA.

TheStig wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:If MJ never retired early twice, the gap between them would be a bigger than it is now. I got Lebron as #2 on my all time list, but he’s getting closer.

But he did. And longevity has a role in this. One of the reasons that Bron has extended into the talk is his prolonged prime. If MJ hadn't retired early twice, I think he'd have a similarly long prime. Even in his last year in Chicago, he was still MVP. That is the same age Bron is now. He easily could have been great at least a couple more years.


His first season with the Wizards, after spending 3 years retired and after starting the season injured, he was doing great until that Sacramento game where he got an injury in a collision with a teammate.

Go check it out. He was getting better, the Wizards became a good defensive team and they were actually in a row. Even with all the things he was facing for training like a maniac to get back into shape.

I know the east was weak but that Wizards team was just awful and he was actually having an amazing impact on that team. He was in the MVP conversation until that point.

So Lebron will go down the same way (even if I think Jordan is superior, I respect Lebron), meaning that he will still play very well until some injury stops him.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#83 » by TheStig » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:31 pm

troza wrote:
DASMACKDOWN wrote:The more interesting conversation hasn't been had yet. But it will in about 5 years.

That will be Luka Doncic.

Who already has a better start this career better than Lebron. I will even go as far as saying Luka will break all of Lebrons early career records in significantly less time.

He is my Darkhorse MVP for next season.


As an euro guy, I'm rooting for him. As long as he is there, Dallas will be my second favorite team in the NBA.

TheStig wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:If MJ never retired early twice, the gap between them would be a bigger than it is now. I got Lebron as #2 on my all time list, but he’s getting closer.

But he did. And longevity has a role in this. One of the reasons that Bron has extended into the talk is his prolonged prime. If MJ hadn't retired early twice, I think he'd have a similarly long prime. Even in his last year in Chicago, he was still MVP. That is the same age Bron is now. He easily could have been great at least a couple more years.


His first season with the Wizards, after spending 3 years retired and after starting the season injured, he was doing great until that Sacramento game where he got an injury in a collision with a teammate.

Go check it out. He was getting better, the Wizards became a good defensive team and they were actually in a row. Even with all the things he was facing for training like a maniac to get back into shape.

I know the east was weak but that Wizards team was just awful and he was actually having an amazing impact on that team. He was in the MVP conversation until that point.

So Lebron will go down the same way (even if I think Jordan is superior, I respect Lebron), meaning that he will still play very well until some injury stops him.

He was doing very well and shaking off the rust and had them in playoff position. I agree MJ, was really good that year, till like a lot of 38 year olds, he broke down. Availability and playing are still important. TMAC was a really great player. To me, he looked better than Kobe. But TMAC broke down and was slowed down in his mid to late 20's and never was considered as great. Bron just keeps going and going at a high level. He definitely deserves a lot of credit for that. I think MJ left some great years behind in both retirements. When he retired the 2nd time, he led a broken down team to a title and one MVP. I'm confident he had at least a couple more MVP caliber seasons left in him.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#84 » by bledredwine » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:04 pm

Something that also should be mentioned is that literally every player I've seen interviewed who went up against Bulls Jordan and prime Lebron calls Jordan "by far" the goat.

I'm talking about Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Grant Hill, Stephen Jackson, Chauncey Billups, Kobe, Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Chauncey, Rip Hamilton, Steve Nash, etc. I've heard each one of them say Jordan is by far the better player (or insinuating this). I've seen so many that it's uncanny. On top of this, you had Pat Riley himself saying that regardless of Lebron's greatness, he would never be Mike (Wade stated Jordan was GOAT as well). Aside from this, legends who faced Mike call him by far better- This includes Ewing, Shaq, and Hakeem, who stated "This is an unfair comparison. Jordan is a far superior player."



What about Lebron's contemporaries? Harden, Durant, Dirk, Wade, Kobe etc. have all called Jordan GOAT. Certainly Kyrie doesn't either. I can only think of one or two who even entertain the thought of Lebron being on that level of Jordan (I want to say Lillard was one?) Neither of those guys faced Bulls Jordan.

The only guys that entertain the idea are those that only played Wizards Jordan (Perkins, Pierce etc.), Badboy Pistons players (John Salley recently came out and stated that he's been trolling by calling Lebron better and stated that Jordan is clearly the best player ever), and of course, those that felt overshadowed by Jordan (Oscar, Kareem basically).
That in itself is plenty of proof.

Many fans will hate this, but the reality is that upon Jordan's retirement, the league wanted to replace his legacy. They wanted to keep the scoring and excitement going. The league got a taste of unreal perimeter scoring through Jordan and wanted that same perimeter scoring to take place after his retirement. They knew that by opening the game, they could manufacture new perimeter GOATs. And they have. There's no other reason to instill the 3 second violation, to ban hand checking, preventing defenders from guiding the offensive players. I researched statistical change among perimeter players during the specific years of the rule changes, and all perimeter player stars shot up in PPG from 5-7 PPG on average (Iverson, Nash, Kobe, etc. Even Jerry Stackhouse led the league in scoring one year with 30 points per game).

Now let me ask all of you this. Do you really think that Jerry fricking Stackhouse could have averaged 30 points per game in the 90s?
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dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
JH 20.6 PPG

LBJ 27% in the clutch in the Finals: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1651184
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#85 » by Ice Man » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:56 pm

bledredwine wrote:Many fans will hate this, but the reality is that upon Jordan's retirement, the league wanted to replace his legacy. They wanted to keep the scoring and excitement going. The league got a taste of unreal perimeter scoring through Jordan and wanted that same perimeter scoring to take place after his retirement. They knew that by opening the game, they could manufacture new perimeter GOATs.


The reason for the rule changes didn't involve Jordan, not directly. it was because scoring went from 111 per game in 1985 to 92 points by 1999, which is both an immense drop and very difficult to explain, given that to my recollection the rules didn't much change, and all that grabbing on the perimeter that supposedly kept scores low was also permitted in 1985, when scores weren't low.

At any rate, no league wants its scoring to be down that much, so the NBA threw a bunch of stuff against the wall in the hopes that it would kick up scoring. Eventually it did, although points aren't as cheap as many fans think. This year's average of 112 is very close to the average of 110 in 1984, when Mike entered the league.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#86 » by R3AL1TY » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:29 pm

bledredwine wrote:
Many fans will hate this, but the reality is that upon Jordan's retirement, the league wanted to replace his legacy. They wanted to keep the scoring and excitement going. The league got a taste of unreal perimeter scoring through Jordan and wanted that same perimeter scoring to take place after his retirement. They knew that by opening the game, they could manufacture new perimeter GOATs. And they have. There's no other reason to instill the 3 second violation, to ban hand checking, preventing defenders from guiding the offensive players. I researched statistical change among perimeter players during the specific years of the rule changes, and all perimeter player stars shot up in PPG from 5-7 PPG on average (Iverson, Nash, Kobe, etc. Even Jerry Stackhouse led the league in scoring one year with 30 points per game).

Now let me ask all of you this. Do you really think that Jerry fricking Stackhouse could have averaged 30 points per game in the 90s?

I think this may be the case since the media seemed bothered by MJ coming back with the Wizards and criticized his game declining whenever they had the chance. His return overshadowed the new "hero ball" wing stars at the time with Kobe, AI, T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, etc. That's part of the reason the league went all in with Lebronmania since he rocked #23, saw MJ as an idol, and he was the next big thing after MJ's retirement.

But as for the rule changes, I think that was the league's way of making the game become faster and high scoring.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#87 » by Repeat 3-peat » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:16 am

Some thoughts/ramble.

Jordan simply accomplished more in a shorter period of time. His peak was better and as I just noted, he won more during his prime, which means better. his accolades are unmatched.

LeBron has the longevity edge but when did that become the deciding factor? I don't see the media praising Kareem as the GOAT for being the NBA's all time leading scorer or ranking 3rd all time in rebounds and blocks, along with his 6 rings. Why? because he wasn't as dominate as, or better than Jordan, or maybe because he played with Magic? but LeBron has played with multiple stars of the 2010's...Seems to me that narrative is trying to give LeBron a huge win over Jordan, though it's flawed.

87-93 Jordan was the greatest basketball player to play in the NBA. His 2nd half of his prime(96-98) was the icing on the cake of his career.

I think the new fans don't understand the greatness by helping lead a team to not just one 3-peat, but two!!. The stacked Warriors couldn't even do it once because they fell apart due to injuries. Miami had a chance but Lebron decided to take a series off in 2011.

Also, the talk of winning championships for three different teams shouldn't get the praise some try to give it. Not every star in the past had that opportunity, and LeBron teaming up with AD is like Jordan going to the Lakers after 98' to join Shaq, or the Spurs with a young but already star Duncan.

6x Champion -- 4x Champion
6x FMVP -- 4x FMVP
5x MVP -- 4x MVP
10x Scoring champion -- 1x Scoring champion
9x All Defensive First Team -- 5x ADFT(one 2nd team)
1x DPOY --
3x steals title --
0x assist title -- 1x assist title


Though with all that said, LeBron isn't done playing, and LA should be favorites to repeat.


This debate has been beaten to death where a bunch of nonsense gets said. Ex: Colin Cowherd, a few days ago on live TV said that Jordan "needed Pippen"(that's fair, and true) but Lebron "just needs the Ball" (WTF? Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/Davis???). Also go to the GB, it's becoming reddit levels bad, or twitter levels bad(?) with this topic.

IMO, at the end of the day Jordan and LeBron are the two greatest basketball players ever.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#88 » by Mbrahv0528 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:26 am

Ice Man wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Jordan, however, far outplayed all of Magic, Barkley, Clyde, Malone and Stockton... none were even close.


Plus Bird during the mid Eighties playoffs, although Mike's team lost. At any rate, I did the work and here are all the times when Mike or LeBron were outplayed by somebody in the same playoff series (using Average Game Scores).

Mike -

1996 Finals - Shawn Kemp


LeBron -

2006 First Round - Gilbert Arenas
2007 Finals - Tony Parker
2007 Finals - Tim Duncan
2007 Finals - Manu Ginobli
2008 Second Ground - Kevin Garnett
2011 Finals - Dwayne Wade
2011 Finals - Dirk Nowitski
2017 Finals - Kevin Durant
2020 First Round - Anthony Davis
2020 Second Round - James Harden
2020 Eastern Finals - Anthony Davis
2020 Finals - Jimmy Butler
Wow. That's actually eye opening!

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#89 » by Mbrahv0528 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:30 am

TheStig wrote:
troza wrote:
DASMACKDOWN wrote:The more interesting conversation hasn't been had yet. But it will in about 5 years.

That will be Luka Doncic.

Who already has a better start this career better than Lebron. I will even go as far as saying Luka will break all of Lebrons early career records in significantly less time.

He is my Darkhorse MVP for next season.


As an euro guy, I'm rooting for him. As long as he is there, Dallas will be my second favorite team in the NBA.

TheStig wrote:But he did. And longevity has a role in this. One of the reasons that Bron has extended into the talk is his prolonged prime. If MJ hadn't retired early twice, I think he'd have a similarly long prime. Even in his last year in Chicago, he was still MVP. That is the same age Bron is now. He easily could have been great at least a couple more years.


His first season with the Wizards, after spending 3 years retired and after starting the season injured, he was doing great until that Sacramento game where he got an injury in a collision with a teammate.

Go check it out. He was getting better, the Wizards became a good defensive team and they were actually in a row. Even with all the things he was facing for training like a maniac to get back into shape.

I know the east was weak but that Wizards team was just awful and he was actually having an amazing impact on that team. He was in the MVP conversation until that point.

So Lebron will go down the same way (even if I think Jordan is superior, I respect Lebron), meaning that he will still play very well until some injury stops him.

He was doing very well and shaking off the rust and had them in playoff position. I agree MJ, was really good that year, till like a lot of 38 year olds, he broke down. Availability and playing are still important. TMAC was a really great player. To me, he looked better than Kobe. But TMAC broke down and was slowed down in his mid to late 20's and never was considered as great. Bron just keeps going and going at a high level. He definitely deserves a lot of credit for that. I think MJ left some great years behind in both retirements. When he retired the 2nd time, he led a broken down team to a title and one MVP. I'm confident he had at least a couple more MVP caliber seasons left in him.
HGH/steroids surely makes a significant impact here.

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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#90 » by TheStig » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:39 am

Mbrahv0528 wrote:
TheStig wrote:
troza wrote:
As an euro guy, I'm rooting for him. As long as he is there, Dallas will be my second favorite team in the NBA.



His first season with the Wizards, after spending 3 years retired and after starting the season injured, he was doing great until that Sacramento game where he got an injury in a collision with a teammate.

Go check it out. He was getting better, the Wizards became a good defensive team and they were actually in a row. Even with all the things he was facing for training like a maniac to get back into shape.

I know the east was weak but that Wizards team was just awful and he was actually having an amazing impact on that team. He was in the MVP conversation until that point.

So Lebron will go down the same way (even if I think Jordan is superior, I respect Lebron), meaning that he will still play very well until some injury stops him.

He was doing very well and shaking off the rust and had them in playoff position. I agree MJ, was really good that year, till like a lot of 38 year olds, he broke down. Availability and playing are still important. TMAC was a really great player. To me, he looked better than Kobe. But TMAC broke down and was slowed down in his mid to late 20's and never was considered as great. Bron just keeps going and going at a high level. He definitely deserves a lot of credit for that. I think MJ left some great years behind in both retirements. When he retired the 2nd time, he led a broken down team to a title and one MVP. I'm confident he had at least a couple more MVP caliber seasons left in him.
HGH/steroids surely makes a significant impact here.

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I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#91 » by Michael Jackson » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:39 pm

TheStig wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:
TheStig wrote:He was doing very well and shaking off the rust and had them in playoff position. I agree MJ, was really good that year, till like a lot of 38 year olds, he broke down. Availability and playing are still important. TMAC was a really great player. To me, he looked better than Kobe. But TMAC broke down and was slowed down in his mid to late 20's and never was considered as great. Bron just keeps going and going at a high level. He definitely deserves a lot of credit for that. I think MJ left some great years behind in both retirements. When he retired the 2nd time, he led a broken down team to a title and one MVP. I'm confident he had at least a couple more MVP caliber seasons left in him.
HGH/steroids surely makes a significant impact here.

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I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.



Agreed he does and maybe he uses HGH or other things like SARMS etc... but there is a strong likelihood that MJ and everyone else did too so it is really a moot point.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#92 » by ArtMorte » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:06 pm

Jordan was the better scorer and had flashier highlights... but I gotta give it to LeBron, he is elite at pretty much everything and the way he's adapted his game to make up for advancing age is remarkable.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#93 » by R3AL1TY » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:42 pm

Repeat 3-peat wrote:Some thoughts/ramble.

Jordan simply accomplished more in a shorter period of time.

This is a point that gets overlooked in debates. If a guy can get the job done in a shorter period of time, I'm choosing him over the other guy. Plus, this person is doing it without stat padding and super team-up agendas.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#94 » by Am2626 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:59 pm

othawhitemeat wrote:
R3AL1TY wrote:To me the debate shouldn't even be with MJ. The debate should be why folks got him over Kareem, Wilt, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Malone, and even Isiah Thomas, Harden and KD? Even Giannis is on a projection to pass him stat wise outside of assists and 3 pt %.


Harden, KD, and Thomas? I don't know about that....The first ones yes, but Harden? Harden - what has he really done besides stat pad? There are times, I would legit take Butler in playoffs over Harden.


Yes agreed Harden is a terrible defensive player and hasn’t taken a team where he is the best player beyond a conference finals. He’s not even in the top 20 all time greats. Wilt and Kareem are the only ones you could make an argument for but I’d still take LeBron. What he did to beat the Warriors that one year was amazing.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#95 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:12 pm

TheStig wrote:I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.

I.E. has better PEDs.

A 35-year-old who spends over a million a year keeping in shape in a league with incredibly lax drug testing is definitely not just eating smoothies and vitamins.

Not that Mike definitely didn't either. But I doubt his regimen was anywhere near the same level.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#96 » by R3AL1TY » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:37 pm

Am2626 wrote:
othawhitemeat wrote:
R3AL1TY wrote:To me the debate shouldn't even be with MJ. The debate should be why folks got him over Kareem, Wilt, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Malone, and even Isiah Thomas, Harden and KD? Even Giannis is on a projection to pass him stat wise outside of assists and 3 pt %.


Harden, KD, and Thomas? I don't know about that....The first ones yes, but Harden? Harden - what has he really done besides stat pad? There are times, I would legit take Butler in playoffs over Harden.


Yes agreed Harden is a terrible defensive player and hasn’t taken a team where he is the best player beyond a conference finals. He’s not even in the top 20 all time greats. Wilt and Kareem are the only ones you could make an argument for but I’d still take LeBron. What he did to beat the Warriors that one year was amazing.

A number of these top stars aren't good defensive players including LeBron. If you give Harden a coach that's not addicted to 3s and one or two top stars that don't require heavy ball usage like him, guys like AD, K Love, or even Vucevic, he probably would have won it that year they lost to the Warriors in game 7 in the WCF and his team probably would have beaten the Lakers in the bubble. Plus, Harden still got more years ahead of him. There's no need to rank him with the greats overall yet. I'm ranking him with today's top players right now.

Luck was on the side of LeBron when they came back on the Warriors. Bogut and Iggy got injured, Steph wasn't 100% with his knee, and Draymond got suspended. But I'll still give him credit for winning it without K Love.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#97 » by ZOMG » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:46 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
TheStig wrote:I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.

I.E. has better PEDs.

A 35-year-old who spends over a million a year keeping in shape in a league with incredibly lax drug testing is definitely not just eating smoothies and vitamins.

Not that Mike definitely didn't either. But I doubt his regimen was anywhere near the same level.


There are few absolute truths in life, but one of them is that Michael Jordan used every competitive advantage he could find. Just the thought of MJ not being on the best PED's when most (if not all) of his peers were is absurd.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#98 » by Southpaw » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:28 pm

To me Jordan is the clear GOAT but I can understand anyone who'd pick LBJ or KAJ.

Jordan just has everything. Stats, intangibles, hardware, dominance, mystique (not really basketball related but still) and tons of legendary moments. Something that can't really be measured in this Jordan vs Lebron debate is how dominant Jordan was. If you lived through the 90s, you'd know and understand. Anytime Jordan and the Bulls was playing, you never feel like they would lose, even if they were down. You feel like they'd be winning the game no matter what.

As for Lebron's 10 finals appearance being used against Jordan, I briefly checked the years the Jordan Bulls lost in the playoffs and 3 of those they lost to the eventual champions (86/89/90) while 2 (87/88) were against the eastern champs. It's not like they're losing to some weak teams.

Something that's not talked about enough imo is how Lebron basically has his own talent agency even while he's playing and it's had an influence on how he built his superteams. We all know how the Lakers got AD.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#99 » by prolific passer » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 pm

Just seen Nick Wright's"What the media doesn't want to tell you about MJ."
You can do the same with Lebron except it would be called "What the media wants you to forget about Lebron."

His first 2 seasons in the league when he missed the playoffs and last year as well when he missed them which nobody talks about. 04-05 was a monumental collapse with Lebron putting up 27 7 7 for the season. I believe him and Oscar Robertson are the only 2 players to put up 27 7 7 in a season and not make the playoffs.
LeBron's 07 and 2015 finals losses are other things the media doesn't want you to remember due to his lack of help.
Jordan played in the 2 highest rated NBA Finals of all time in 93 and 98 while Lebron played in the 2 lowest rated ones in 07 and this year.

Remember when Jordan said he wasn't interested in politics on the last dance and got ripped by people the next day? Doesn't seem like a bad idea now.
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Re: LeBron vs Jordan 

Post#100 » by TheStig » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:32 pm

Southpaw wrote:To me Jordan is the clear GOAT but I can understand anyone who'd pick LBJ or KAJ.

Jordan just has everything. Stats, intangibles, hardware, dominance, mystique (not really basketball related but still) and tons of legendary moments. Something that can't really be measured in this Jordan vs Lebron debate is how dominant Jordan was. If you lived through the 90s, you'd know and understand. Anytime Jordan and the Bulls was playing, you never feel like they would lose, even if they were down. You feel like they'd be winning the game no matter what.

As for Lebron's 10 finals appearance being used against Jordan, I briefly checked the years the Jordan Bulls lost in the playoffs and 3 of those they lost to the eventual champions (86/89/90) while 2 (87/88) were against the eastern champs. It's not like they're losing to some weak teams.

Something that's not talked about enough imo is how Lebron basically has his own talent agency even while he's playing and it's had an influence on how he built his superteams. We all know how the Lakers got AD.

MJ lost to all time great teams in the Celtics and Pistons. He was playing with a very young team too. He also pulled a lot of upsets to higher seeded teams. He wasn't a front runner like Bron. In 88 everyone was picking the cavs. In 89 they were the 6th seed and beat the 3 seed and 2 seed. In 90, they were the 3 seed and beat the 2 seed and took the great pistons 1 seed to 7 games. He wasn't getting knocked off by teams like the Magic or starless Pistons or the Celtics. The Pistons and Celtics that knocked off MJ had multiple hall of famers in their prime and were multiple title teams.

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