The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

[JohnnyTapwater]

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I don't know about ya'll - but I trust what an actual high level professional basketball players says about a prospect they've played with in any capacity.

Wasn't Dinwiddie the guy saying the Bulls should sign him and he would deliver AD?

Wade was saying Edwards was better than him. We need to take these guys who are friends and have agent connections with a heavy grain of salt.

Delivery of a player with agents that have other agendas is a completely different animal and no indication of the talent evaluation I'm talking about.

A retired player turned TV analyst saying a kid is better than him has an obvious unstated caveat. I thought it was obvious anyway. Like - Anthony is 19 - I'm pretty sure he is better than D.Wade at 19. Now what does he do from there is what separates the men from the boys. Temperament makes a HUGE difference here and is way different that actual skill. You can't quantify it.

[PaKii94]

But every pick is the team getting their guy, so should we not evaluate the picks at all? The T'Wolves, Warriors, Hornets, Cavs, Hawks, Pistons, Knicks on down the line all got their guy.

You know that how? At least pistons didn't get their guy cause AK drafted him. Anyway answer my question. How do you get your guy in that scenario? (Doesn't matter who it is deni/hayes/Hali).

He wasn't their guy. We "got our guy" is what every team says. Do you not see they would have taken Edwards, Wiseman and Ball ahead of him? They were in discussions to trade up.

So they literally did the opposite of what you wanted them to do. They found their guy (any of the big 3, presumably Wiseman) but didn't go and get him.

are you purposely being obtuse? How tf would you know he wasn't their guy. They reached for him! Obviously all options are explored. They didn't think the "big 3" were trading up for or they would have done it. Obviously PWill was next on their board. How do you get him? You draft him.

Yes everyone says they got their guy. If someone "reached" for a player they probably did reach for a player and didn't settle for someone that is not their guy.

Anyway I'm done with this discussion. Obviously you are grounded in your flawed POV. You're just flimsily moving around the goalposts at this point.

[cjbulls]

You know that how? At least pistons didn't get their guy cause AK drafted him. Anyway answer my question. How do you get your guy in that scenario? (Doesn't matter who it is deni/hayes/Hali).

He wasn't their guy. We "got our guy" is what every team says. Do you not see they would have taken Edwards, Wiseman and Ball ahead of him? They were in discussions to trade up.

So they literally did the opposite of what you wanted them to do. They found their guy (any of the big 3, presumably Wiseman) but didn't go and get him.

are you purposely being obtuse? How tf would you know he wasn't their guy. They reached for him! Obviously all options are explored. They didn't think the "big 3" were trading up for or they would have done it. Obviously PWill was next on their board. How do you get him? You draft him.

Yes everyone says they got their guy. If someone "reached" for a player they probably did reach for a player and didn't settle for someone that is not their guy.

Anyway I'm done with this discussion. Obviously you are grounded in your flawed POV.

You just said the Bulls got their guy because it wasn't worth the value to trade up. Then you say "the Pistons didn't get their guy" when they too made the decision not to leverage their assets to trade up. It's the same thing! So who is being obtuse here?

[PaKii94]

He wasn't their guy. We "got our guy" is what every team says. Do you not see they would have taken Edwards, Wiseman and Ball ahead of him? They were in discussions to trade up.

So they literally did the opposite of what you wanted them to do. They found their guy (any of the big 3, presumably Wiseman) but didn't go and get him.

are you purposely being obtuse? How tf would you know he wasn't their guy. They reached for him! Obviously all options are explored. They didn't think the "big 3" were trading up for or they would have done it. Obviously PWill was next on their board. How do you get him? You draft him.

Yes everyone says they got their guy. If someone "reached" for a player they probably did reach for a player and didn't settle for someone that is not their guy.

Anyway I'm done with this discussion. Obviously you are grounded in your flawed POV.

You just said the Bulls got their guy because it wasn't worth the value to trade up. Then you say "the Pistons didn't get their guy" when they too made the decision not to leverage their assets to trade up. It's the same thing! So who is being obtuse here?

Okay last time. step by step:

-Option 1: trade up, spend a lot of assets, no guarantee the "big 3" is better than the guy you pegged. So you don't trade up

-Option 2: trade down to try to get more assets as long as you can still get the guy you pegged. Unfortunately there isn't an opportunity to move down because the team at #7 will select your guy.

-Option 3: stand pat, trust your judgement, and select your guy. -> that's what they did and that's the logical thing to do.

By going option 3, the team at #7 doesn't get their guy. Oh well sucks to be them. Team at 7 TRIED to move up but it's require too much. Case closed.

/End

[cjbulls]

are you purposely being obtuse? How tf would you know he wasn't their guy. They reached for him! Obviously all options are explored. They didn't think the "big 3" were trading up for or they would have done it. Obviously PWill was next on their board. How do you get him? You draft him.

Yes everyone says they got their guy. If someone "reached" for a player they probably did reach for a player and didn't settle for someone that is not their guy.

Anyway I'm done with this discussion. Obviously you are grounded in your flawed POV.

You just said the Bulls got their guy because it wasn't worth the value to trade up. Then you say "the Pistons didn't get their guy" when they too made the decision not to leverage their assets to trade up. It's the same thing! So who is being obtuse here?

Okay last time. step by step:

-Option 1: trade up, spend a lot of assets, no guarantee the "big 3" is better than the guy you pegged. So you don't trade up

-Option 2: trade down to try to get more assets as long as you can still get the guy you pegged. Unfortunately there isn't an opportunity to move down because the team at #7 will select your guy.

-Option 3: stand pat, trust your judgement, and select your guy. -> that's what they did and that's the logical thing to do.

By going option 3, the team at #7 doesn't get their guy. Oh well sucks to be them. Team at 7 TRIED to move up but it's require too much. Case closed.

/End

You skipped an option. Trade down to try to get more assets and if your guy is gone, take any of the similarly ranked guys knowing that the value of the extra assets outweighs you getting your 4th best guy since you can't get your #1, #2, or #3 guy anyways.

[PaKii94]

You just said the Bulls got their guy because it wasn't worth the value to trade up. Then you say "the Pistons didn't get their guy" when they too made the decision not to leverage their assets to trade up. It's the same thing! So who is being obtuse here?

Okay last time. step by step:

-Option 1: trade up, spend a lot of assets, no guarantee the "big 3" is better than the guy you pegged. So you don't trade up

-Option 2: trade down to try to get more assets as long as you can still get the guy you pegged. Unfortunately there isn't an opportunity to move down because the team at #7 will select your guy.

-Option 3: stand pat, trust your judgement, and select your guy. -> that's what they did and that's the logical thing to do.

By going option 3, the team at #7 doesn't get their guy. Oh well sucks to be them. Team at 7 TRIED to move up but it's require too much. Case closed.

/End

You skipped an option. Trade down to try to get more assets and if your guy is gone, take any of the similarly ranked guys knowing that the value of the extra assets outweighs you getting your 4th best guy since you can't get your #1, #2, or #3 guy anyways.

BUT THAT SIMILAR RANKED GUYS ARE IN YOUR HEAD. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T VALUE THEM LIKE YOU DO.

Idk how that doesn't come across to you?!? This is not trading cards man. These are human beings. Obviously to them PWill is a much greater asset than whatever trash you have comparable to him in your mind. They don't want two trash assets and would rather have the guy that they identified that they think is a diamond in the rough. Why can't you get that?

You can disagree with their evaluation BUT YOU DON'T KNOW. All you can reasonably know is that PWILL was at least #4 on their board if not higher. Maybe in AK's mind he got the steal of the draft because he thinks PWill is #1 prospect and he got him at #4. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

And you keep assuming there was a trade down but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS AVAILABLE. the only trade down that was proposed was for trading up to get PWILL before the bulls and it was NOT relevant to the bulls.

[Leslie Forman]

I'd rather read professional opinions, watch videos and use as much info as possible to evaluate. But you just want to listen to what AK says for the media. Yet I'm the sucker.

some guys on internet podcasts who have literally never worked in the NBA in any capacity = "professionals"

Arturas Karnisovas, A MAN LITERALLY GETTING PAID A LARGE SALARY BY AN NBA FRANCHISE = some amateur

yeah ok bud

[PaKii94]

I'd rather read professional opinions, watch videos and use as much info as possible to evaluate. But you just want to listen to what AK says for the media. Yet I'm the sucker.

some guys on internet podcasts who have literally never worked in the NBA in any capacity = "professionals"

Arturas Karnisovas, A MAN LITERALLY GETTING PAID A LARGE SALARY BY AN NBA FRANCHISE = some amateur

yeah ok bud

It's ridiculous how much he holds these "draft experts" to a high standard. The objective of those guys is to generate clicks for their pages! AK's objective is to find the best talent.

[cjbulls]

Okay last time. step by step:

-Option 1: trade up, spend a lot of assets, no guarantee the "big 3" is better than the guy you pegged. So you don't trade up

-Option 2: trade down to try to get more assets as long as you can still get the guy you pegged. Unfortunately there isn't an opportunity to move down because the team at #7 will select your guy.

-Option 3: stand pat, trust your judgement, and select your guy. -> that's what they did and that's the logical thing to do.

By going option 3, the team at #7 doesn't get their guy. Oh well sucks to be them. Team at 7 TRIED to move up but it's require too much. Case closed.

/End

You skipped an option. Trade down to try to get more assets and if your guy is gone, take any of the similarly ranked guys knowing that the value of the extra assets outweighs you getting your 4th best guy since you can't get your #1, #2, or #3 guy anyways.

BUT THAT SIMILAR RANKED GUYS ARE IN YOUR HEAD. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T VALUE THEM LIKE YOU DO.

Idk how that doesn't come across to you?!? This is not trading cards man. These are human beings. Obviously to them PWill is a much greater asset than whatever trash you have comparable to him in your mind. They don't want two trash assets and would rather have the guy that they identified that they think is a diamond in the rough. Why can't you get that?

You can disagree with their evaluation BUT YOU DON'T KNOW. All you can reasonably know is that PWILL was at least #4 on their board if not higher. Maybe in AK's mind he got the steal of the draft because he thinks PWill is #1 prospect and he got him at #4. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

And you keep assuming there was a trade down but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS AVAILABLE. the only trade down that was proposed was for trading up to get PWILL before the bulls and it was NOT relevant to the bulls.

Yet you assume the Pistons were taking Patrick Williams at 7. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

You assume they were trying to trade up to 3 for Williams. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

No one has ever argued what is known and unknown. We use the info to make reasonable inferences. We know that teams trade up and down, it's largely just a matter of price. AK didn't want want to pay the price. I disagree with the reasonably inferenced price in either direction.

And even at 4, there were better options.

I don't ever remember this mentality where you weren't allowed to disagree with FO. It's quite odd.

[PaKii94]

You skipped an option. Trade down to try to get more assets and if your guy is gone, take any of the similarly ranked guys knowing that the value of the extra assets outweighs you getting your 4th best guy since you can't get your #1, #2, or #3 guy anyways.

BUT THAT SIMILAR RANKED GUYS ARE IN YOUR HEAD. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T VALUE THEM LIKE YOU DO.

Idk how that doesn't come across to you?!? This is not trading cards man. These are human beings. Obviously to them PWill is a much greater asset than whatever trash you have comparable to him in your mind. They don't want two trash assets and would rather have the guy that they identified that they think is a diamond in the rough. Why can't you get that?

You can disagree with their evaluation BUT YOU DON'T KNOW. All you can reasonably know is that PWILL was at least #4 on their board if not higher. Maybe in AK's mind he got the steal of the draft because he thinks PWill is #1 prospect and he got him at #4. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

And you keep assuming there was a trade down but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS AVAILABLE. the only trade down that was proposed was for trading up to get PWILL before the bulls and it was NOT relevant to the bulls.

Yet you assume the Pistons were taking Patrick Williams at 7. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

You assume they were trying to trade up to 3 for Williams. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

No one has ever argued what is known and unknown. We use the info to make reasonable inferences. We know that teams trade up and down, it's largely just a matter of price. AK didn't want want to pay the price. I disagree with the reasonably inferenced price in either direction.

And even at 4, there were better options.

I don't ever remember this mentality where you weren't allowed to disagree with FO. It's quite odd.

You would rather infer from nothing and invalidate the actual rumors from detroit? Sure. Go ahead

And again, you are more than welcome to question the FO on the PWill pick but you can't put "not trading down" on the FO.

There were better options for trading down IN YOUR OPINION. Obviously not in AKs.

[Leslie Forman]

It's ridiculous how much he holds these "draft experts" to a high standard. The objective of those guys is to generate clicks for their pages! AK's objective is to find the best talent.

The cognitive dissonance it takes to call people who are literally amateur evaluators but just happen to be in the media "professionals" and to call the literal professionals a bunch of clueless idiots who don't understand the value of their picks when they are the exact people who determine that value is, frankly, quite impressive.

[cjbulls]

I'd rather read professional opinions, watch videos and use as much info as possible to evaluate. But you just want to listen to what AK says for the media. Yet I'm the sucker.

some guys on internet podcasts who have literally never worked in the NBA in any capacity = "professionals"

Arturas Karnisovas, A MAN LITERALLY GETTING PAID A LARGE SALARY BY AN NBA FRANCHISE = some amateur

yeah ok bud

You love to misrepresent things when they aren't going your way. I never said AK was an amateur. I said what he tells the media doesn't inform my decision on a prospect. The fact AK said he likes the player, and was his guy, is to be expected not only because they drafted him, but because part of his job is to sell the prospect to the fans. He can't say, "damn we really wanted Wiseman but they wanted LaVine and I only was willing to put in WCJ."

We have seen NBA executives come and go. Most on this board felt the executive in charge of the Bulls with 20 years experience didn't know what he was doing. And that's before getting into the fact the NBA pulls these analysts for work. Stepien's own Cole Zwicker works for an NBA team now. John Hollinger of the Athletic was a former Grizzlies executive. Guys like Schmitz could work for any nba team tomorrow if they wanted.

I like to read up on the prospects, check out videos and make my own decisions. I would guess most posters on here do. I have done this for years now and have my own sense of things. I'm sorry that upsets you or doesn't count in your book. But for some reason you prefer to just let the draft happen and trust the Bulls made the perfect move. That's fine, but that is not a good reason to criticize my approach.

[cjbulls]

BUT THAT SIMILAR RANKED GUYS ARE IN YOUR HEAD. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T VALUE THEM LIKE YOU DO.

Idk how that doesn't come across to you?!? This is not trading cards man. These are human beings. Obviously to them PWill is a much greater asset than whatever trash you have comparable to him in your mind. They don't want two trash assets and would rather have the guy that they identified that they think is a diamond in the rough. Why can't you get that?

You can disagree with their evaluation BUT YOU DON'T KNOW. All you can reasonably know is that PWILL was at least #4 on their board if not higher. Maybe in AK's mind he got the steal of the draft because he thinks PWill is #1 prospect and he got him at #4. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

And you keep assuming there was a trade down but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS AVAILABLE. the only trade down that was proposed was for trading up to get PWILL before the bulls and it was NOT relevant to the bulls.

Yet you assume the Pistons were taking Patrick Williams at 7. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

You assume they were trying to trade up to 3 for Williams. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

No one has ever argued what is known and unknown. We use the info to make reasonable inferences. We know that teams trade up and down, it's largely just a matter of price. AK didn't want want to pay the price. I disagree with the reasonably inferenced price in either direction.

And even at 4, there were better options.

I don't ever remember this mentality where you weren't allowed to disagree with FO. It's quite odd.

You would rather infer from nothing and invalidate the actual rumors from detroit? Sure. Go ahead

And again, you are more than welcome to question the FO on the PWill pick but you can't put "not trading down" on the FO.

There were better options for trading down IN YOUR OPINION. Obviously not in AKs.

There were actual rumors of the Bulls trying to trade up to 2. Why don't those rumors count but your Pistons rumor does? (the same Pistons rumor I have cited and accept btw)

[PaKii94]

Yet you assume the Pistons were taking Patrick Williams at 7. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

You assume they were trying to trade up to 3 for Williams. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

No one has ever argued what is known and unknown. We use the info to make reasonable inferences. We know that teams trade up and down, it's largely just a matter of price. AK didn't want want to pay the price. I disagree with the reasonably inferenced price in either direction.

And even at 4, there were better options.

I don't ever remember this mentality where you weren't allowed to disagree with FO. It's quite odd.

You would rather infer from nothing and invalidate the actual rumors from detroit? Sure. Go ahead

And again, you are more than welcome to question the FO on the PWill pick but you can't put "not trading down" on the FO.

There were better options for trading down IN YOUR OPINION. Obviously not in AKs.

There were actual rumors of the Bulls trying to trade up to 2. Why don't those rumors count but your Pistons rumor does? (the same Pistons rumor I have cited and accept btw)

Go back and read option #1 I listed above. Is that not acknowledging that rumor?

[cjbulls]

You would rather infer from nothing and invalidate the actual rumors from detroit? Sure. Go ahead

And again, you are more than welcome to question the FO on the PWill pick but you can't put "not trading down" on the FO.

There were better options for trading down IN YOUR OPINION. Obviously not in AKs.

There were actual rumors of the Bulls trying to trade up to 2. Why don't those rumors count but your Pistons rumor does? (the same Pistons rumor I have cited and accept btw)

Go back and read option #1 I listed above. Is that not acknowledging that rumor?

Great. So we acknowledge pick 2 was on the table. And we heard the rumor the Pistons wanted to move up to 3 for Williams. So we know a trade down opportunity was available with Detroit, presumably the same deal they were offering Charlotte since that would also get them the player they wanted.

So I like either of those options over the one AK chose. I think AK could have done more with the pick to maximize talent on the team. Am I allowed to think that?

[PaKii94]

There were actual rumors of the Bulls trying to trade up to 2. Why don't those rumors count but your Pistons rumor does? (the same Pistons rumor I have cited and accept btw)

Go back and read option #1 I listed above. Is that not acknowledging that rumor?

Great. So we acknowledge pick 2 was on the table. And we heard the rumor the Pistons wanted to move up to 3 for Williams. So we know a trade down opportunity was available with Detroit, presumably the same deal they were offering Charlotte since that would also get them the player they wanted.

So I like either of those options over the one AK chose. I think AK could have done more with the pick to maximize talent on the team. Am I allowed to think that?

False. Trading up was evaluated as not an option either by GSW or by the bulls so it doesn't apply because it didn't happen.

Trade down opportunity was not available for us. Detroit was targeting 3 for PWill. We were targeting PWill with our pick and so trading down with detroit was not an option. Did you see any rumors for #5 or #6?

You can wish/think whatever you want, doesn't mean it was an option in our current reality.

[RedBulls23]

Another thing I keep seeing is how this is a 3 player draft. It's not, because it insinuates that those 3 guys are can't miss.

This draft was a crapshoot all over, and because of that a lot of these prospects weren't considered to be head and shoulders above another. It came down to individual teams scouting and finding their guy.

[cjbulls]

Go back and read option #1 I listed above. Is that not acknowledging that rumor?

Great. So we acknowledge pick 2 was on the table. And we heard the rumor the Pistons wanted to move up to 3 for Williams. So we know a trade down opportunity was available with Detroit, presumably the same deal they were offering Charlotte since that would also get them the player they wanted.

So I like either of those options over the one AK chose. I think AK could have done more with the pick to maximize talent on the team. Am I allowed to think that?

False. Trading up was evaluated as not an option either by GSW or by the bulls so it doesn't apply because it didn't happen.

Trade down opportunity was not available for us. Detroit was targeting 3 for PWill. We were targeting PWill with our pick and so trading down with detroit was not an option. Did you see any rumors for #5 or #6?

You can wish/think whatever you want, doesn't mean it was an option in our current reality.

Yes but I wasn't targeting PWill. So the trade down was available/an option. Am I allowed to think that?

Am I allowed to prefer Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin/Deni to Williams?

[PaKii94]

Great. So we acknowledge pick 2 was on the table. And we heard the rumor the Pistons wanted to move up to 3 for Williams. So we know a trade down opportunity was available with Detroit, presumably the same deal they were offering Charlotte since that would also get them the player they wanted.

So I like either of those options over the one AK chose. I think AK could have done more with the pick to maximize talent on the team. Am I allowed to think that?

False. Trading up was evaluated as not an option either by GSW or by the bulls so it doesn't apply because it didn't happen.

Trade down opportunity was not available for us. Detroit was targeting 3 for PWill. We were targeting PWill with our pick and so trading down with detroit was not an option. Did you see any rumors for #5 or #6?

You can wish/think whatever you want, doesn't mean it was an option in our current reality.

Yes but I wasn't targeting PWill. So the trade down was available/an option. Am I allowed to think that?

Am I allowed to prefer Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin/Deni to Williams?

Yes you're allowed to prefer anyone else at #4. You can't assume trading down is an option. It was never offered to the bulls. If you select anyone else at #4, detroit would rather not trade up and happily select PWill @ 7

[Shill]

You just said the Bulls got their guy because it wasn't worth the value to trade up. Then you say "the Pistons didn't get their guy" when they too made the decision not to leverage their assets to trade up. It's the same thing! So who is being obtuse here?

Okay last time. step by step:

-Option 1: trade up, spend a lot of assets, no guarantee the "big 3" is better than the guy you pegged. So you don't trade up

-Option 2: trade down to try to get more assets as long as you can still get the guy you pegged. Unfortunately there isn't an opportunity to move down because the team at #7 will select your guy.

-Option 3: stand pat, trust your judgement, and select your guy. -> that's what they did and that's the logical thing to do.

By going option 3, the team at #7 doesn't get their guy. Oh well sucks to be them. Team at 7 TRIED to move up but it's require too much. Case closed.

/End

You skipped an option. Trade down to try to get more assets and if your guy is gone, take any of the similarly ranked guys knowing that the value of the extra assets outweighs you getting your 4th best guy since you can't get your #1, #2, or #3 guy anyways.

So let me get this straight: you like Williams, but you’re upset the Bulls didn’t get him in a trade-down?