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The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1081 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:48 am

RedBulls23 wrote:
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Bulls fans have stated that he is destined to be a role player. Dinwiddie doesn’t understand.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1082 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:50 am

cjbulls wrote:
Portiseyes wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
So you think they wanted to trade with Charlotte for 3 but wouldn’t offer the exact same terms for Chicago at 4? If they get him at 4 they get to pay him even less $, there is no downside.

I never said mine was the definitive ranking. We all agreed before the draft that all these guys were ranked similarly. We all agreed before the draft (pre-rumors) Patrick wasn’t worthy of 4. But now that it happened, people are bending over backwards to hype this guy up. It’s fine, but I can be disappointed.

There were people ready to throw a fit if we took Deni. A few people said they would stop being Bulls fans if they took Ball. But for some reason me not enthusiastically jumping on board with this decision is not allowed. There were many better options, something like 5-10 when you factor in trades. With that said, I like the kid and want him to do well. I just don’t see any star potential outside of the Butler miracle scenario (unlike true raw prospects like a Poku). There were other guys with better star chances, including at 7.


I’m not following all the back and forth on this long running what-if sub thread, but although many posters may think it’s crazy I think you may be looking at this the wrong way.

I think Bulls may have promised PW at 4 months ago. They were that sure he was their guy and just didn’t want him going 1 - 3. I get from our perspective it doesn’t make sense but when I hear AK talking about when Bulls were ready to pick, see the red jacket his Bro (maybe) was wearing and muted response from family when PW got taken, when PW admits he was just coincidentally talking to Coby every other day... it adds up.


That may very well be true, but it seems odd to promise a guy at 4 in a 3 person draft. Either way, a promise is a poor use of the pick.

How is a promise a poor use of a pick? If he stopped working out for teams they are less likely to seek a trade up over the Bulls
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1083 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:54 am

fleet wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Portiseyes wrote:
I’m not following all the back and forth on this long running what-if sub thread, but although many posters may think it’s crazy I think you may be looking at this the wrong way.

I think Bulls may have promised PW at 4 months ago. They were that sure he was their guy and just didn’t want him going 1 - 3. I get from our perspective it doesn’t make sense but when I hear AK talking about when Bulls were ready to pick, see the red jacket his Bro (maybe) was wearing and muted response from family when PW got taken, when PW admits he was just coincidentally talking to Coby every other day... it adds up.


That may very well be true, but it seems odd to promise a guy at 4 in a 3 person draft. Either way, a promise is a poor use of the pick.

How is a promise a poor use of a pick? If he stopped working out for teams they are less likely to seek a trade up over the Bulls


If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1084 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:55 am

cjbulls wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
So you think they wanted to trade with Charlotte for 3 but wouldn’t offer the exact same terms for Chicago at 4? If they get him at 4 they get to pay him even less $, there is no downside.

I never said mine was the definitive ranking. We all agreed before the draft that all these guys were ranked similarly. We all agreed before the draft (pre-rumors) Patrick wasn’t worthy of 4. But now that it happened, people are bending over backwards to hype this guy up. It’s fine, but I can be disappointed.

There were people ready to throw a fit if we took Deni. A few people said they would stop being Bulls fans if they took Ball. But for some reason me not enthusiastically jumping on board with this decision is not allowed. There were many better options, something like 5-10 when you factor in trades. With that said, I like the kid and want him to do well. I just don’t see any star potential outside of the Butler miracle scenario (unlike true raw prospects like a Poku). There were other guys with better star chances, including at 7.


The reason they were moving up is to get ahead of the bulls. If the bulls want PWill and detroit want PWill then they can't force the bulls to take 7/16 for #4.

You are allowed to not like the pick but your justification of "multiple trades out there", "why not just trade down" doesn't apply cause we really don't know what the options were. After the first 3 picks, it was a crapshoot on where people were ranked. AK liked PWill at #4 and took him.


What are you saying? Bulls can just call Detroit and say, "he we heard you wanted PWill ahead of us. How about you just just buy us off by sending us 7/16 and we will let you have him at 4. Otherwise, we are taking him at 4. Then Detroit gives him the same offer they were giving to Charlotte.

So the Bulls would be making a better deal by trading down for inferior players? What if someone said trade me your wife for these 2 side chicks I got?
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1085 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:57 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
That may very well be true, but it seems odd to promise a guy at 4 in a 3 person draft. Either way, a promise is a poor use of the pick.

How is a promise a poor use of a pick? If he stopped working out for teams they are less likely to seek a trade up over the Bulls


If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.

How is that a win if you dont get your guy? :crazy:
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1086 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:58 am

PaKii94 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
False. Trading up was evaluated as not an option either by GSW or by the bulls so it doesn't apply because it didn't happen.

Trade down opportunity was not available for us. Detroit was targeting 3 for PWill. We were targeting PWill with our pick and so trading down with detroit was not an option. Did you see any rumors for #5 or #6?

You can wish/think whatever you want, doesn't mean it was an option in our current reality.


Yes but I wasn't targeting PWill. So the trade down was available/an option. Am I allowed to think that?

Am I allowed to prefer Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin/Deni to Williams?


Yes you're allowed to prefer anyone else at #4. You can't assume trading down is an option. It was never offered to the bulls. If you select anyone else at #4, detroit would rather not trade up and happily select PWill @ 7


Why can't I assume trading down was an option? You're trying to limit me for no reason. The Pistons don't know who I want. And if teams did for whatever reason know I didn't want Patrick Williams, then if they did find out who I want (Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin), they would then want to trade up.

Just as an example, https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-rumors-new-york-trying-to-trade-up-2020-nba-draft-after-acquiring-no-23-pick-from-jazz/
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1087 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:58 am

fleet wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:How is a promise a poor use of a pick? If he stopped working out for teams they are less likely to seek a trade up over the Bulls


If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.

How is that a win if you dont get your guy? :crazy:


Pat Williams wasn't their guy. They wanted to move up.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1088 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:02 am

Shill wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Okay last time. step by step:

-Option 1: trade up, spend a lot of assets, no guarantee the "big 3" is better than the guy you pegged. So you don't trade up

-Option 2: trade down to try to get more assets as long as you can still get the guy you pegged. Unfortunately there isn't an opportunity to move down because the team at #7 will select your guy.

-Option 3: stand pat, trust your judgement, and select your guy. -> that's what they did and that's the logical thing to do.

By going option 3, the team at #7 doesn't get their guy. Oh well sucks to be them. Team at 7 TRIED to move up but it's require too much. Case closed.

/End


You skipped an option. Trade down to try to get more assets and if your guy is gone, take any of the similarly ranked guys knowing that the value of the extra assets outweighs you getting your 4th best guy since you can't get your #1, #2, or #3 guy anyways.




So let me get this straight: you like Williams, but you’re upset the Bulls didn’t get him in a trade-down?


I like Williams. He's a great teens pick. But why did you take him at 4? Liking him doesn't mean I wanted him to be the pick. I suppose if I traded down to 11 or whatever and got him, that'd be fine. But he didn't stick out any which way to warrant picking him there.

Just like most people liked Hali and felt like he could fit well on the roster, but they would have been annoyed if the Bulls took him at 1.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1089 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:03 am

What?
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1090 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:04 am

fleet wrote:What?


You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1091 » by Hangtime84 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:04 am

fleet wrote:What?

I feel that every time I see him post just comic relief now
Jcool0 wrote:
aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


NBA fan logic we need to trade one of two best players because (Player X) one needs to shine more.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1092 » by PaKii94 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:11 am

cjbulls wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Yes but I wasn't targeting PWill. So the trade down was available/an option. Am I allowed to think that?

Am I allowed to prefer Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin/Deni to Williams?


Yes you're allowed to prefer anyone else at #4. You can't assume trading down is an option. It was never offered to the bulls. If you select anyone else at #4, detroit would rather not trade up and happily select PWill @ 7


Why can't I assume trading down was an option? You're trying to limit me for no reason. The Pistons don't know who I want. And if teams did for whatever reason know I didn't want Patrick Williams, then if they did find out who I want (Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin), they would then want to trade up.

Just as an example, https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-rumors-new-york-trying-to-trade-up-2020-nba-draft-after-acquiring-no-23-pick-from-jazz/



:lol: :lol: the only reason pistons were trying to trade up was BECAUSE we wanted PWill at 4. It wasn't a random urge by pistons to trade up. Bulls wouldn't accept a trade down BECAUSE PWill wouldn't be available with that trade down.

That's why.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1093 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:13 am

PaKii94 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Yes you're allowed to prefer anyone else at #4. You can't assume trading down is an option. It was never offered to the bulls. If you select anyone else at #4, detroit would rather not trade up and happily select PWill @ 7


Why can't I assume trading down was an option? You're trying to limit me for no reason. The Pistons don't know who I want. And if teams did for whatever reason know I didn't want Patrick Williams, then if they did find out who I want (Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin), they would then want to trade up.

Just as an example, https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-rumors-new-york-trying-to-trade-up-2020-nba-draft-after-acquiring-no-23-pick-from-jazz/



:lol: :lol: the only reason pistons were trying to trade up was BECAUSE we wanted PWill at 4. It wasn't a random urge by pistons to trade up. Bulls wouldn't accept a trade down BECAUSE PWill wouldn't be available with that trade down.

That's why.


Right, so then when I have my new guy at #4, then the team that wants him would be willing to trade up. As noted by my example, the Knicks were throwing 8/23 around because they wanted to move up, presumably for Toppin.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1094 » by Leslie Forman » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:17 am

Wait, are you people telling me that NBA front offices aren't just using ESPN's mock draft as their big board?

Surely, you people are fools.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1095 » by Southpaw » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:18 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:What?


You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?

No, most likely not. But he's most likely no.4 on their board. That's why they selected him there. If they deemed him the clear BPA at that point, why trade down for 2 lower rated prospects, again from their POV.

We can all disagree about the value of the pick but we also have to see that, from the team's POV, Williams was their guy at 4. I'm pretty sure if they had Williams on the same level prospect as say, Hayes/Hali/Okoro/Deni/Toppin/etc., they would've traded down with DET.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1096 » by PaKii94 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:20 am

cjbulls wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Why can't I assume trading down was an option? You're trying to limit me for no reason. The Pistons don't know who I want. And if teams did for whatever reason know I didn't want Patrick Williams, then if they did find out who I want (Hayes/Okoro/Hali/Toppin), they would then want to trade up.

Just as an example, https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-rumors-new-york-trying-to-trade-up-2020-nba-draft-after-acquiring-no-23-pick-from-jazz/



:lol: :lol: the only reason pistons were trying to trade up was BECAUSE we wanted PWill at 4. It wasn't a random urge by pistons to trade up. Bulls wouldn't accept a trade down BECAUSE PWill wouldn't be available with that trade down.

That's why.


Right, so then when I have my new guy at #4, then the team that wants him would be willing to trade up. As noted by my example, the Knicks were throwing 8/23 around because they wanted to move up, presumably for Toppin.


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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1097 » by BullsFTW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:22 am

kulaz3000 wrote:
sco wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Yes, people have to temper their year one expectations. It's extremely rare for a 19 year old to come into the NBA and not struggle some. I expect Pat Will to take a couple of years to get to the point where he can play big minutes and really contribute. This first season it's likely he will struggle a bit with his 3 pt shot (even good shooters in college rarely come into the NBA and shoot high %R right off the bat). He will also take time to learn the Bulls offense and defensive schemes. Especially without a summer or a full camp to get acclimated. It is going to really tough for this year's rookie crop to get up to NBA speed.

I think the FO will feel a little pressure to develop him, especially this season when the Bulls could be out of the playoff race by midseason. If they are, I think they'll trade one or both of Otto and Lauri, and he'll get plenty of run. If they're in the playoff hunt, I agree, he'd play less.


Force feeding a young player minutes when they aren't ready can be more of a negative than positive. It can go both ways.

I will say this though, Billy has proven that he is great at handling young players and developing them, so I'll see how Pat is used his rookie season, but I'd be surprised if he goes beyond the 8-12 minutes per game mark - PLEASANTLY surprised.

Billy D did start Domantas Sabonis as a rookie, but yeah Sabonis was more polished than Pat Will coming in, so who knows.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1098 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:28 am

Southpaw wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:What?


You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?

No, most likely not. But he's most likely no.4 on their board. That's why they selected him there. If they deemed him the clear BPA at that point, why trade down for 2 lower rated prospects, again from their POV.

We can all disagree about the value of the pick but we also have to see that, from the team's POV, Williams was their guy at 4. I'm pretty sure if they had Williams on the same level prospect as say, Hayes/Hali/Okoro/Deni/Toppin/etc., they would've traded down with DET.


I’ve never spoken from their POV other than to say I agree the Bulls ranked him #4. Clearly they felt Williams was the best option because that’s literally what they did. But I don’t agree, just as many here took issue with various prospects like Deni/Okoro/Ball/whoever.

Think of the draft in tiers. This year had a top 3 in one tier. The next tier had many. I have Williams on a third tier, but for sake of discussion put him in 2. It makes sense to trade down, and get a second player if it means you can get a guy in the same tier with one of those picks. He’s not really “your guy” at that point anyways since you didn’t get anyone from first tier and there is no appreciable gap in the second tier.

From my POV, they picked a guy I view as tier 3 when all the 2s were left. But according to many here, i am not allowed to think that, and I have to accept that Pat Williams was the best option, because AK says so.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1099 » by Chi town » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:34 am

Leslie Forman wrote:Wait, are you people telling me that NBA front offices aren't just using ESPN's mock draft as their big board?

Surely, you people are fools.


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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1100 » by BullsFTW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:36 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.

How is that a win if you dont get your guy? :crazy:


Pat Williams wasn't their guy. They wanted to move up.

So who was their guy?

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