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The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1101 » by Ugly Duckling » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:37 am

All my opinions thus far have been preliminary, just gut feelings based on watching a few minutes of tape on this kid. Now that I've been able to study more film, I can more confidently say that I'm happy with this pick. Not very happy, because we spent the 4th overall pick to get him, but happy. This is not a pick GarPax would've made. They didn't have the balls to take a calculated risk like this. Reisndorf is starting to come back into my good graces. He can keep the team. For now.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1102 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:38 am

BullsFTW wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:How is that a win if you dont get your guy? :crazy:


Pat Williams wasn't their guy. They wanted to move up.

So who was their guy?


We don’t know for sure. Reports say Wiseman likely, or Ball.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1103 » by RSP83 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:42 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:It's ridiculous how much he holds these "draft experts" to a high standard. The objective of those guys is to generate clicks for their pages! AK's objective is to find the best talent.

The cognitive dissonance it takes to call people who are literally amateur evaluators but just happen to be in the media "professionals" and to call the literal professionals a bunch of clueless idiots who don't understand the value of their picks when they are the exact people who determine that value is, frankly, quite impressive.


The jury is still out on this pick, and we're just going to have to wait. AK thinks Pat is special, has to be, because he's really going against the grain here. With most people think he's clearly below guys like Deni, Hayes, Okoro, OO, Hali. So, for him to make that bold of a move it's either

(a) he thinks very highly of Pat's quality. A situation where quality > quantity (trade down for 2 lower picks). And missing on Pat is not worth the risk.
or
(b) the talent pool after Pat is not worth the investment (in his mind) and also, since he's sort of in a "win now" mode, quantity of less than ideal talent (in his board) don't necessarily yield the best return in the Win column next season.

I can't back up AK for that, that's his own decision. But I'm pretty sure he's done a thorough research and made thoughtful decision. While blogger scouts and armchair GMs have certain judgement about talents, AK and team is the one being held accountable for their decision. He's not GarPax who has had a very long leash for almost 20 years not being held accountable due to nepotism. So for that at least I'm comfortable believing that AK and team don't just fool around.

Also I've tried to deduce his decision from his interview, and it's these 3 statements I think is the key (I'm rephrasing his statements):

1. Liking 4 people, is easier than liking 20 people
2. Statistically the chance of top 4 pick to succeed is higher than the next group.
3. He hopes to never see us pick this high again

The way I read this is, his confidence level is higher with his top 4 prospects, if he has to trade down and get 2 picks, say 7+16, he's basically left with choosing from bigger pool of players he's less confidence with, and on top of that he doesn't know who will be left available? The remaining guy available may not even be in his board. So Patrick was already on AKs top 2-4 list. So he's more confidence about Pat, and has high hope that Pat can contribute to winning right away. At least developing 1 high ceiling guy is better than having to develop 2 guys who he's less confidence with especially when you want to focus on winning. Since we already have bunch of guys on development watch as well (Lauri, WCJ, Coby).
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1104 » by Southpaw » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:46 am

cjbulls wrote:
Southpaw wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?

No, most likely not. But he's most likely no.4 on their board. That's why they selected him there. If they deemed him the clear BPA at that point, why trade down for 2 lower rated prospects, again from their POV.

We can all disagree about the value of the pick but we also have to see that, from the team's POV, Williams was their guy at 4. I'm pretty sure if they had Williams on the same level prospect as say, Hayes/Hali/Okoro/Deni/Toppin/etc., they would've traded down with DET.


I’ve never spoken from their POV other than to say I agree the Bulls ranked him #4. Clearly they felt Williams was the best option because that’s literally what they did. But I don’t agree, just as many here took issue with various prospects like Deni/Okoro/Ball/whoever.

Think of the draft in tiers. This year had a top 3 in one tier. The next tier had many. I have Williams on a third tier, but for sake of discussion put him in 2. It makes sense to trade down, and get a second player if it means you can get a guy in the same tier with one of those picks. He’s not really “your guy” at that point anyways since you didn’t get anyone from first tier and there is no appreciable gap in the second tier.

From my POV, they picked a guy I view as tier 3 when all the 2s were left. But according to many here, i am not allowed to think that, and I have to accept that Pat Williams was the best option, because AK says so.

But we don't know who they had on what tier. Our best guess is that AKME thought the best option was to select Williams at 4. And he was "their guy" at 4th because if not, they would've selected a different player, or as you say, traded down.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1105 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:54 am

Southpaw wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Southpaw wrote:No, most likely not. But he's most likely no.4 on their board. That's why they selected him there. If they deemed him the clear BPA at that point, why trade down for 2 lower rated prospects, again from their POV.

We can all disagree about the value of the pick but we also have to see that, from the team's POV, Williams was their guy at 4. I'm pretty sure if they had Williams on the same level prospect as say, Hayes/Hali/Okoro/Deni/Toppin/etc., they would've traded down with DET.


I’ve never spoken from their POV other than to say I agree the Bulls ranked him #4. Clearly they felt Williams was the best option because that’s literally what they did. But I don’t agree, just as many here took issue with various prospects like Deni/Okoro/Ball/whoever.

Think of the draft in tiers. This year had a top 3 in one tier. The next tier had many. I have Williams on a third tier, but for sake of discussion put him in 2. It makes sense to trade down, and get a second player if it means you can get a guy in the same tier with one of those picks. He’s not really “your guy” at that point anyways since you didn’t get anyone from first tier and there is no appreciable gap in the second tier.

From my POV, they picked a guy I view as tier 3 when all the 2s were left. But according to many here, i am not allowed to think that, and I have to accept that Pat Williams was the best option, because AK says so.

But we don't know who they had on what tier. Our best guess is that AKME thought the best option was to select Williams at 4. And he was "their guy" at 4th because if not, they would've selected a different player, or as you say, traded down.


I agree we don’t know. I’m saying it’s a poor decision. They should have better recognized the tiering and either moved up to the higher tier or avoid having the first pick of the second tier. And if they had to stay at pick 4, get an actual second tier guy.

That doesn’t mean I think Williams is a bum, I just am not happy with the decision. It’s hard to get high enough in the draft to potentially get an elite player. I feel they didn’t maximize that opportunity.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1106 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:56 am

Southpaw wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:What?


You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?

No, most likely not. But he's most likely no.4 on their board. That's why they selected him there. If they deemed him the clear BPA at that point, why trade down for 2 lower rated prospects, again from their POV.

We can all disagree about the value of the pick but we also have to see that, from the team's POV, Williams was their guy at 4. I'm pretty sure if they had Williams on the same level prospect as say, Hayes/Hali/Okoro/Deni/Toppin/etc., they would've traded down with DET.

Williams could easily have been 2 or 3 on the Bulls board. Or 1, who the hell knows. But picking in the top 3 if you wanted Williams, you might want to trade down appropriately for him if possible because you may squeeze extra assets out. If possible. If I had to guess, you don’t trade down lower than 4. And at 4, f you want Williams, you don’t trade down because you have no idea which teams 5-9 liked him. If the Bulls were in love with him as a top 4 pick, good chance other teams were as well. You don’t risk that if that is your man.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1107 » by Axolotl » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:57 am

Southpaw wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Southpaw wrote:No, most likely not. But he's most likely no.4 on their board. That's why they selected him there. If they deemed him the clear BPA at that point, why trade down for 2 lower rated prospects, again from their POV.

We can all disagree about the value of the pick but we also have to see that, from the team's POV, Williams was their guy at 4. I'm pretty sure if they had Williams on the same level prospect as say, Hayes/Hali/Okoro/Deni/Toppin/etc., they would've traded down with DET.


I’ve never spoken from their POV other than to say I agree the Bulls ranked him #4. Clearly they felt Williams was the best option because that’s literally what they did. But I don’t agree, just as many here took issue with various prospects like Deni/Okoro/Ball/whoever.

Think of the draft in tiers. This year had a top 3 in one tier. The next tier had many. I have Williams on a third tier, but for sake of discussion put him in 2. It makes sense to trade down, and get a second player if it means you can get a guy in the same tier with one of those picks. He’s not really “your guy” at that point anyways since you didn’t get anyone from first tier and there is no appreciable gap in the second tier.

From my POV, they picked a guy I view as tier 3 when all the 2s were left. But according to many here, i am not allowed to think that, and I have to accept that Pat Williams was the best option, because AK says so.

But we don't know who they had on what tier. Our best guess is that AKME thought the best option was to select Williams at 4. And he was "their guy" at 4th because if not, they would've selected a different player, or as you say, traded down.


What we know with absolute certainty is that for this FO drafting Pat Williams #4 was the best outcome they could find. Everything else is varying degrees of guesswork.

Of course they could have picked someone else at #4, or (likely) traded up, or down, but in their evaluation those options were worse.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1108 » by Southpaw » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:03 am

Agree with both. It's too early too judge the pick either way. Good thing we'll be seeing Williams in action in a few weeks.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1109 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:11 am

Good possibility as well is that Williams worked out first with the Bulls, which is a reason why they could have had such strong conviction on him, and they shut him down with the promise. No other, or very few other teams may have had the workout advantage..
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The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1110 » by StunnerKO » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:19 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:What?


You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?

Maybe not if he was picking higher but at 4 he very well could be and Hayes was said to their number two . AK did say trading up was never an option . Also the Patrick Williams pick shows that AK isn’t gun shy in getting who he wants , if he felt any of the top 3 were most have I think he trades up. The rumors of the bulls moving up with GS or Minny was from their camp to garner interest from other teams . Pistons did try and trade up to get Williams and the Spurs tried to do so as well if he fell closer to 7-10 when they realized he wouldn’t be there at their pick

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nba.nbcsports.com/2020/11/10/rumor-pistons-promised-to-draft-patrick-williams-no-7/amp/
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1111 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:23 am

Cowley said the Bulls trade up rumor was bogus based on a couple sources. And that is very plausible. They liked 4 guys, and perhaps the difference between them to the Bulls was negligible enough not to look at a trade up as worth doing considering the price of (allegedly) Carter etc. When we were all considering the rumor, we assumed there was a drop off in talent from 3-4. So it made sense to believe the rumor. But there may not have been a considerable dropoff as it turns out in terms of draft grade.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1112 » by StunnerKO » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:27 am

fleet wrote:Cowley said the Bulls trade up rumor was bogus based on a couple sources.

Yea because I don’t think that gets out until draft night it was running rapid since 8 am . Only thing that was true all around was they liked Williams and many assumed the trade up was true because they worked out Wiseman on Monday . Ball wasn’t in play for them ever because he interviewed them once but the workout they never even showed up to it .
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1113 » by Repeat 3-peat » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:28 am

fleet wrote:Cowley said the Bulls trade up rumor was bogus based on a couple sources. And that is very plausible. They liked 4 guys, and perhaps the difference between them to the Bulls was negligible enough not to look at a trade up as worth doing considering the price of (allegedly) Carter etc.


WCJ+#4 for #2 would have been awful.

Wiseman would need to become D.Robinson 2.0 to make up for that.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1114 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:32 am

Repeat 3-peat wrote:
fleet wrote:Cowley said the Bulls trade up rumor was bogus based on a couple sources. And that is very plausible. They liked 4 guys, and perhaps the difference between them to the Bulls was negligible enough not to look at a trade up as worth doing considering the price of (allegedly) Carter etc.


WCJ+#4 for #2 would have been awful.

Wiseman would need to become D.Robinson 2.0 to make up for that.

I mean, Golden State would be sitting a lot prettier today if that trade was on the table from the Bulls. Gotta believe GS would have pulled the trigger if the Bulls were actually offering this deal given the Klay injury.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1115 » by BullsFTW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:08 am

StunnerKO wrote:
fleet wrote:Cowley said the Bulls trade up rumor was bogus based on a couple sources.

Yea because I don’t think that gets out until draft night it was running rapid since 8 am . Only thing that was true all around was they liked Williams and many assumed the trade up was true because they worked out Wiseman on Monday . Ball wasn’t in play for them ever because he interviewed them once but the workout they never even showed up to it .

Looks like Wiseman & Pat Will were their guys.

Edwards and Ball were never on their radar, and AKME probably felt both had more fatal flaws.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1116 » by rtblues » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:09 am

Dez wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Indomitable wrote:only one poster is doing that really. There are some skeptics but that is to be expected.


What you remain clueless about is you can like the player, but recognize the reach. I like Patrick as a nice, future core player. He certainly has that potential and fits a lot of the qualities that I like.

But he’s a poor use of a #4 pick, and where presumably they won’t be picking again anytime soon. This team is built to be middling at this point and are out of star chances unless they want to go the free agency route. But hey, now that we have the next Kawhi Leonard I guess I’m just overreacting.


Hang on, you were constantly throwing out scouts opinions/scouting reports in defense of LaMelo but when the shoe is on the other foot with Williams it's a reach and a poor use of a number 4 pick? Even though the Pistons were trying to trade up from 7 to get him and the Spurs wanted him until he started rocketing up the draft boards.

You can't call it a reach when the team at 7 wanted him and was trying to jump the Bulls to get him.

Um, yeah, never mind... I ain't even gonna say it...
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1117 » by PhilLeotardo » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:25 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:All my opinions thus far have been preliminary, just gut feelings based on watching a few minutes of tape on this kid. Now that I've been able to study more film, I can more confidently say that I'm happy with this pick. Not very happy, because we spent the 4th overall pick to get him, but happy. This is not a pick GarPax would've made. They didn't have the balls to take a calculated risk like this. Reisndorf is starting to come back into my good graces. He can keep the team. For now.


Jerry Reinsdorf no longer runs the Bulls & is ancient, probably doesn’t know where he is half the time, & is nearing the end of his life. All of the changes took place *because* of these factors. He doesn’t even live in Chicago. This is all Michael

I can guarantee that the old man doesn’t even know who Marc Evs is, and had almost nothing whatsoever to do with hiring anyone, besides a “senior blessing” type deal

Also, when was Jerry f**** reinsbarf ever in anyone’s good graces? It’s been a 22 year nightmare lol. It took him aging out in order for the nightmare to end

I’m also pretty positive that the Reinsdorf family only owns like 40% of the franchise
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1118 » by PhilLeotardo » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:58 am

Dinwiddie today on Pwill’s ceiling: “he has no ceiling”

Looks like Boston was heavily targeting Pat too & may have tried to trade up for him

Lol looks like most teams behind Chicago wanted him something fierce

I’m assuming Sensei AK told him not to even so much as pick up the phone for anyone else
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1119 » by johnnyvann840 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:53 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
That may very well be true, but it seems odd to promise a guy at 4 in a 3 person draft. Either way, a promise is a poor use of the pick.

How is a promise a poor use of a pick? If he stopped working out for teams they are less likely to seek a trade up over the Bulls


If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.


How is that a win? Thank goodness that didn't happen. That's exactly what the Bulls didn't need is a PG who can't shoot at all. Ball's shot mechanics look exactly like my 9 year old niece's. I would much rather have Pat Will than LeMelo Ball.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1120 » by johnnyvann840 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:54 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.

How is that a win if you dont get your guy? :crazy:


Pat Williams wasn't their guy. They wanted to move up.


They didn't want to move up, they were only considering it in case Detroit moved up to #3. Then, moving up to #2 would have made sure they got Williams. :wink:
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