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The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1141 » by dougthonus » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:43 pm

coldfish wrote:If you expand it to other picks, the number of disappointments is legion. IMO, AK hasn't earned the ability to select players like this and not get criticized.


Just curious who you liked in this draft that you think wouldn't have been worthy of criticizing?

To me, we always have the right to criticize/second guess, etc, the move I would have liked to see instead was trade down from 4 to 7 with 16 thrown in. It feels like Detroit would have done that. At #7 I'd have taken Toppin or Advija and at #16 maybe Maxey (but I knew less about these prospects because I didn't scout down that far). I'd have rather had two guys to 1 though, and it feels highly likely that deal was available based on the news we have heard.

At any rate, I'll just wait to see on Williams, I went through and looked at all the picks and whether I liked them or disliked them, and my initial take on picks was probably right only about half the time.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1142 » by Michael Jackson » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:55 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:If you expand it to other picks, the number of disappointments is legion. IMO, AK hasn't earned the ability to select players like this and not get criticized.


Just curious who you liked in this draft that you think wouldn't have been worthy of criticizing?

To me, we always have the right to criticize/second guess, etc, the move I would have liked to see instead was trade down from 4 to 7 with 16 thrown in. It feels like Detroit would have done that. At #7 I'd have taken Toppin or Advija and at #16 maybe Maxey (but I knew less about these prospects because I didn't scout down that far). I'd have rather had two guys to 1 though, and it feels highly likely that deal was available based on the news we have heard.

At any rate, I'll just wait to see on Williams, I went through and looked at all the picks and whether I liked them or disliked them, and my initial take on picks was probably right only about half the time.



I think if you got Deni and Maxey out of this draft this board would have been happy as most just wanted to trade down... that being said apparently AK looks like he really wanted Williams. Time will tell if his nose on this was right.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1143 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:01 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:If you expand it to other picks, the number of disappointments is legion. IMO, AK hasn't earned the ability to select players like this and not get criticized.


Just curious who you liked in this draft that you think wouldn't have been worthy of criticizing?

To me, we always have the right to criticize/second guess, etc, the move I would have liked to see instead was trade down from 4 to 7 with 16 thrown in. It feels like Detroit would have done that. At #7 I'd have taken Toppin or Advija and at #16 maybe Maxey (but I knew less about these prospects because I didn't scout down that far). I'd have rather had two guys to 1 though, and it feels highly likely that deal was available based on the news we have heard.

At any rate, I'll just wait to see on Williams, I went through and looked at all the picks and whether I liked them or disliked them, and my initial take on picks was probably right only about half the time.


I was always a trade down guy too. If PW was so much in demand, it should have been easy. I agree that 7+16 would have been on the table. I had the same guys in mind also other than Maxey. I also wasn't putting too much time into the middle of the round.

If forced to keep #4, Okuro had better tape on him.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1144 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:04 pm

Which teams traded down? If it was so easy and efficacious it would have been done. Nobody wanted to trade up. Because the draft was as homogeneous as you could imagine a draft to be. Singling out the Bulls, well it’s confusing.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1145 » by DuckIII » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:14 pm

fleet wrote:Which teams traded down? If it was so easy and efficacious it would have been done. Nobody wanted to trade up. Because the draft was as homogeneous as you could imagine a draft to be. Singling out the Bulls, well it’s confusing.


This is not the NFL. Almost no one with a high lottery pick trades down. And I’m sure, like all transaction types, in the limited times it has happened the results are very mixed. Generally speaking, I don’t support it as a draft strategy.

More specifically, trading down should only be considered if you don’t have “your guy.” AK, agree with him or not, had “his guy.” So it would have been a troubling sign of poor GMing to trade down out of fear of the perception of a reach. He loved a guy, so he took him. Period.

That’s what I want, even when I’m not sold on the specifics.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1146 » by Chi town » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:39 pm

DuckIII wrote:
fleet wrote:Which teams traded down? If it was so easy and efficacious it would have been done. Nobody wanted to trade up. Because the draft was as homogeneous as you could imagine a draft to be. Singling out the Bulls, well it’s confusing.


This is not the NFL. Almost no one with a high lottery pick trades down. And I’m sure, like all transaction types, in the limited times it has happened the results are very mixed. Generally speaking, I don’t support it as a draft strategy.

More specifically, trading down should only be considered if you don’t have “your guy.” AK, agree with him or not, had “his guy.” So it would have been a troubling sign of poor GMing to trade down out of fear of the perception of a reach. He loved a guy, so he took him. Period.

That’s what I want, even when I’m not sold on the specifics.


This.

The gap between PW and AKs next player wasn’t worth giving the Pistons PW and getting “not their guy” and another mid 1st.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1147 » by BullsFTW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:53 pm

I trust the front office and coaching staff that we have now will be able to help Pat Will reach his potential. Had it been last year’s regime, I wouldn’t have much confidence.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1148 » by DJhitek » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:03 pm

The pick itself had enough value that it could have absolutely netted you 7 and 16. Obviously, it seems to me, with this years draft that Pat Williams was AKs guy and it doesn’t look like he wanted anyone else.

Teams absolutely trade down, Atlanta traded down in the Trae Young deal, Pels traded down last year and so did the Suns. The Bulls don’t have the luxury of simply picking one guy and hoping things turn out. This team needs as many dart throws as humanely possible. But I’ve said this for years, every draft, the Bulls simply stand pat. Now, could Pat Williams work out? Sure, but I don’t think it simply merits “give AK the benefit of the doubt”. There’s a level of criticism here to lay at his feet for not assessing the value he had with the pick IMO.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1149 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:10 pm

DuckIII wrote:
fleet wrote:Which teams traded down? If it was so easy and efficacious it would have been done. Nobody wanted to trade up. Because the draft was as homogeneous as you could imagine a draft to be. Singling out the Bulls, well it’s confusing.


This is not the NFL. Almost no one with a high lottery pick trades down. And I’m sure, like all transaction types, in the limited times it has happened the results are very mixed. Generally speaking, I don’t support it as a draft strategy.

More specifically, trading down should only be considered if you don’t have “your guy.” AK, agree with him or not, had “his guy.” So it would have been a troubling sign of poor GMing to trade down out of fear of the perception of a reach. He loved a guy, so he took him. Period.

That’s what I want, even when I’m not sold on the specifics.


It has happened each of the last four years, and 6 times in those 4 years. That's just top 10 picks, it happens even more frequently as the draft moves down.

2019: Atlanta acquires 4 from New Orleans for 8, 17 and 35
2019: Minnesotra acquire 6 from Phoenix for 11 and Saric
2018: Dallas acquires 3 from Atlanta for 5 and 2019 FRP
2017: Portland acquires 10 from Sacramento for 15 and 20
2017: Philly acquire 1 from Boston for 3 plus a FRP
2016: Phoenix acquires 8 from Sacramento for 13, 28 Bogdanovic and SRP
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1150 » by Bankshot » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:11 pm

To me his ball handling is really good, with an excellent left.... hand go to about 6:23 in the video (and this is just one example) after the missed shot that he rebounds ...his dribbling and left handed pass are excellent...he's going to be able to use this and lots of excellent things will come from it...


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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1151 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:11 pm

coldfish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:If you expand it to other picks, the number of disappointments is legion. IMO, AK hasn't earned the ability to select players like this and not get criticized.


Just curious who you liked in this draft that you think wouldn't have been worthy of criticizing?

To me, we always have the right to criticize/second guess, etc, the move I would have liked to see instead was trade down from 4 to 7 with 16 thrown in. It feels like Detroit would have done that. At #7 I'd have taken Toppin or Advija and at #16 maybe Maxey (but I knew less about these prospects because I didn't scout down that far). I'd have rather had two guys to 1 though, and it feels highly likely that deal was available based on the news we have heard.

At any rate, I'll just wait to see on Williams, I went through and looked at all the picks and whether I liked them or disliked them, and my initial take on picks was probably right only about half the time.


I was always a trade down guy too. If PW was so much in demand, it should have been easy. I agree that 7+16 would have been on the table. I had the same guys in mind also other than Maxey. I also wasn't putting too much time into the middle of the round.

If forced to keep #4, Okuro had better tape on him.

To be consistent, AK would then deserve criticism for choosing a wing without a jumper in a shooter’s league high in the draft. Right after Okuro was chosen by Cleveland btw, the choice was said to be a reach on ESPN. Every one of those prospects has a substantial ding. No teams traded down for a reason. Likely, no teams wanted to trade up in a homogeneous draft. And every one of those GMs has to call a name out.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1152 » by DJhitek » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:27 pm

I mean, as critical as I am about the pick, I’m actually relieved that AK took a swing at a high upside player. At least in his mind, because I don’t think Williams has as big of an upside as some believe and a lot of that is simply because I don’t believe he will ever be an efficient 3. His workouts in recent days have given me some hope but I still have reservations about him ever becoming anything more than a power forward.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1153 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:47 pm

Bankshot wrote:To me his ball handling is really good, with an excellent left.... hand go to about 6:23 in the video (and this is just one example) after the missed shot that he rebounds ...his dribbling and left handed pass are excellent...he's going to be able to use this and lots of excellent things will come from it...



Going back to the drills portion, that was more impressive than what I saw from guys like Edwards and Maxey on their pro days. Maxey did put more effort than Edwards, but it looked like Pat put in more effort than both of them just on those drills. Key to maximizing potential. Who he is as a person is going a long way towards his draft stock.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1154 » by chrispatrick » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:47 pm

fleet wrote:Kawahi went #15 as well. Many Bulls fans might have given live birth if the Bulls had a high pick and taken him judging by this week.


I'm on board with Williams because I don't know enough to say otherwise and it seems like he could be someone who plays both ends of the court, which outside of a healthy overpaid Porter nobody on this team does.

I did just want to point out (only for fun) that Kawhi was rarely ever mocked later than 8th going into that draft so unlike Williams, wouldn't have been a huge surprise at #4.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1155 » by Mbrahv0528 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:50 pm

Hangtime84 wrote:
fleet wrote:What?

I feel that every time I see him post just comic relief now
Same here. I'm close to adding my first poster to my block list. And that is saying something.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1156 » by Indomitable » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:54 pm

chrispatrick wrote:
fleet wrote:Kawahi went #15 as well. Many Bulls fans might have given live birth if the Bulls had a high pick and taken him judging by this week.


I'm on board with Williams because I don't know enough to say otherwise and it seems like he could be someone who plays both ends of the court, which outside of a healthy overpaid Porter nobody on this team does.

I did just want to point out (only for fun) that Kawhi was rarely ever mocked later than 8th going into that draft so unlike Williams, wouldn't have been a huge surprise at #4.

Is that why he went 15
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1157 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:55 pm

chrispatrick wrote:
fleet wrote:Kawahi went #15 as well. Many Bulls fans might have given live birth if the Bulls had a high pick and taken him judging by this week.


I'm on board with Williams because I don't know enough to say otherwise and it seems like he could be someone who plays both ends of the court, which outside of a healthy overpaid Porter nobody on this team does.

I did just want to point out (only for fun) that Kawhi was rarely ever mocked later than 8th going into that draft so unlike Williams, wouldn't have been a huge surprise at #4.

This was a weird year. Truncated season, no chance to show out in March Madness. Nothing to go on but months old game tape. Very predraft process dependent as far as upside prospects like Pat. If Pat is as worth the 4 as AK and Billy thought, bet he’d have been mocked higher with more exposure. Anyway, once people got wind NBA teams were catching on before the draft, Pat was mocked to the Bulls on places like NBAdraft.net, and journalists took notice. Give it one or 2 more weeks and he'd be mocked from 7 on up imo.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1158 » by chrispatrick » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:56 pm

Indomitable wrote:
chrispatrick wrote:
fleet wrote:Kawahi went #15 as well. Many Bulls fans might have given live birth if the Bulls had a high pick and taken him judging by this week.


I'm on board with Williams because I don't know enough to say otherwise and it seems like he could be someone who plays both ends of the court, which outside of a healthy overpaid Porter nobody on this team does.

I did just want to point out (only for fun) that Kawhi was rarely ever mocked later than 8th going into that draft so unlike Williams, wouldn't have been a huge surprise at #4.

Is that why he went 15


The surprise was that he fell that far. He was, incorrectly, expected to go earlier.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1159 » by Mbrahv0528 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:59 pm

coldfish wrote:
cjbulls wrote:I guess we will have to wait and see. This kid deserves time (at least 3 years) and of course the draft moves randomly so it’s a bit unfair to always judge after the fact.

But I’d like all the posters here who are saying things like AK had him #1 to remember that as we move forwards and evaluate AK’s drafting skills. Perhaps all your faith shouldn’t be in the FO.


I very much hope that PW goes on to become a hybrid of Lebron and Jordan, leading the Bulls to 12 straight titles. When I'm negative about PW it doesn't mean I'm rooting against him.

That said, AK has done nothing to earn a level where he is above criticism. Anyone criticizing PW isn't crazy. The film on him is concerning at best. The dude averaged 9.2p 4.0r and 1.0a off the bench. People a little worried about using a #4 pick on him are justified.

I hope AK found a gem in the rough but I'm not going to guarantee it.

.....

To a large degree, the discussion needs to get back to development. IMO, AK is basically trying to set up an advanced development system for players that far exceeds what most NBA teams do. To that end, he is going to draft for size and mentality and try to develop the game sense.

I'm not a Steeler fan but I stand in awe of them. They have been rolling off the same system for decades. They draft high upside 3-4 defenders and develop them. I think they have only had a few losing seasons in the past 30 years and its largely due to consistently having a great defense. They have a system that virtually no one in the NFL emulates. As such, they have become a machine that turns middling picks into a very good team, year after year.

AK is blatantly trying to build that in Chicago. A lot of fans won't like it because many here are tankers. I'm impressed that he is even trying it but he hasn't accomplished anything yet. If it works though, this should be a fun run for Bulls fans.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1160 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:02 pm

chrispatrick wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
chrispatrick wrote:
I'm on board with Williams because I don't know enough to say otherwise and it seems like he could be someone who plays both ends of the court, which outside of a healthy overpaid Porter nobody on this team does.

I did just want to point out (only for fun) that Kawhi was rarely ever mocked later than 8th going into that draft so unlike Williams, wouldn't have been a huge surprise at #4.

Is that why he went 15


The surprise was that he fell that far. He was, incorrectly, expected to go earlier.

https://www.nbadraft.net/2011-extended-mock-draft/

14th^^^^^

But another I just checked has him 8th I believe
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/700602-2011-nba-mock-draft-definitive-full-two-round-post-draft-lottery-order-edition
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