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OT: COVID-19 thread #4

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OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#1 » by RedBulls23 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:10 am

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1973796&start=1080

Continue here since the last thread became a mess.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#2 » by AirLaVine8 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:20 am

South Australia is back out or lockdown tomorrow night at midnight, 3 days into a 6 day lockdown. We squashed and contained this cluster very quickly
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#3 » by jmajew » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:00 pm

AirLaVine8 wrote:South Australia is back out or lockdown tomorrow night at midnight, 3 days into a 6 day lockdown. We squashed and contained this cluster very quickly


That and one of the people lied and said he simply picked up a pizza from the pizza place and got it. When they realized he worked there and that he worked beside someone that was infected they were able to back off the restrictions. When they put the restrictions in they thought it was because the virus was more aggressive and was transmissible with only seeing someone for a minute. That is the main reason the lockdown as lifted.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#4 » by JordansBulls » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:04 am

The world is too global now for a pandemic to be contained. Vaccines will need to come more quickly from here on out.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#5 » by cubd8 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:18 am

Is it racist to identify where this came from? I haven't read the previous threads/posts, and I clearly don't think it is racist to identify the origins, but I saw the last thread was closed because of this and was wondering why (again, not knowing what other posts/subjects were discussed).
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#6 » by dougthonus » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:31 pm

cubd8 wrote:Is it racist to identify where this came from? I haven't read the previous threads/posts, and I clearly don't think it is racist to identify the origins, but I saw the last thread was closed because of this and was wondering why (again, not knowing what other posts/subjects were discussed).


It's the difference between calling AIDS, AIDS or the gay plague. You aren't identifying where it came from by calling it the Wuhan virus, that isn't the purpose of using that phrase, no normal person walks around calling it the Wuhan virus or the China virus. Normal people literally have to stop and think what you mean when you say it because its so weird.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#7 » by Dresden » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:33 pm

"Deaths in every state of the country are higher than they would be in a normal year, according to an analysis of estimates from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

The data show how the coronavirus pandemic, which is peaking in many states, is bringing with it unusual patterns of death, higher than the official totals of deaths that have been directly linked to the virus.

Deaths nationwide were 18 percent higher than normal from March 15 to Nov. 7. Altogether, the analysis shows that 326,000 more people than normal have died in the United States during that period, a number that may be an undercount since recent death statistics are still being updated."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#8 » by jmajew » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:10 pm

Dresden wrote:"Deaths in every state of the country are higher than they would be in a normal year, according to an analysis of estimates from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

The data show how the coronavirus pandemic, which is peaking in many states, is bringing with it unusual patterns of death, higher than the official totals of deaths that have been directly linked to the virus.

Deaths nationwide were 18 percent higher than normal from March 15 to Nov. 7. Altogether, the analysis shows that 326,000 more people than normal have died in the United States during that period, a number that may be an undercount since recent death statistics are still being updated."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


This is something I've been extremely curious about. I understand deaths will be higher because of COVID but what I've always wondered is are we pulling ahead deaths from the elderly or are we causing more deaths because less people are going to the Doctor and do the regular things that help reduce deaths.

I don't think that data will ever be able to be quantified. If all we are doing is pulling deaths forward because the elderly are dying sooner because of COVID you would think once their is a vaccine we would see deaths in the US drop below the historical norms. I think that data 4 years from now will be the tell tale sign of how deadly COVID has actually been. I don't think there is any way to know for sure now.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#9 » by Dresden » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:58 pm

jmajew wrote:
Dresden wrote:"Deaths in every state of the country are higher than they would be in a normal year, according to an analysis of estimates from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

The data show how the coronavirus pandemic, which is peaking in many states, is bringing with it unusual patterns of death, higher than the official totals of deaths that have been directly linked to the virus.

Deaths nationwide were 18 percent higher than normal from March 15 to Nov. 7. Altogether, the analysis shows that 326,000 more people than normal have died in the United States during that period, a number that may be an undercount since recent death statistics are still being updated."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


This is something I've been extremely curious about. I understand deaths will be higher because of COVID but what I've always wondered is are we pulling ahead deaths from the elderly or are we causing more deaths because less people are going to the Doctor and do the regular things that help reduce deaths.

I don't think that data will ever be able to be quantified. If all we are doing is pulling deaths forward because the elderly are dying sooner because of COVID you would think once their is a vaccine we would see deaths in the US drop below the historical norms. I think that data 4 years from now will be the tell tale sign of how deadly COVID has actually been. I don't think there is any way to know for sure now.


I see your point. Plus there are probably some extra deaths now due to "despair"= people losing jobs, or loved ones, or just being more socially isolated, and thus using drugs or alcohol more, or some increase in suicide, etc.

On the other hand, we should save some lives because there is a lot less driving going on now, too. The traffic in the Bay Area is much less than what it was a year ago, especially downtown and on the freeways.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#10 » by Wingy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:37 am

cubd8 wrote:Is it racist to identify where this came from? I haven't read the previous threads/posts, and I clearly don't think it is racist to identify the origins, but I saw the last thread was closed because of this and was wondering why (again, not knowing what other posts/subjects were discussed).


The other thread was closed for the same reason all threads get closed here.

It reached 100 pages.

But - yes, it’s racist.

If a virus started in say, the swamps of Florida, you can be damn certain the president wouldn’t be constantly lambasting Floridians about the Florida virus. Or do you really think he’d call it that?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#11 » by DuckIII » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am

Wingy wrote:
cubd8 wrote:Is it racist to identify where this came from? I haven't read the previous threads/posts, and I clearly don't think it is racist to identify the origins, but I saw the last thread was closed because of this and was wondering why (again, not knowing what other posts/subjects were discussed).


The other thread was closed for the same reason all threads get closed here.

It reached 100 pages.

But - yes, it’s racist.

If a virus started in say, the swamps of Florida, you can be damn certain the president wouldn’t be constantly lambasting Floridians about the Florida virus. Or do you really think he’d call it that?


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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#12 » by dougthonus » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:01 am

Wingy wrote:The other thread was closed for the same reason all threads get closed here.

It reached 100 pages.

But - yes, it’s racist.

If a virus started in say, the swamps of Florida, you can be damn certain the president wouldn’t be constantly lambasting Floridians about the Florida virus. Or do you really think he’d call it that?


If it had been coined by the world as the Wuhan virus that would be one thing. There are many viruses named after places. This isn't, its now been politicized. It's now very intentional and meant to abstract meaning by referring to it that way.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#13 » by SalmonsSuperfan » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:59 am

cubd8 wrote:Is it racist to identify where this came from? I haven't read the previous threads/posts, and I clearly don't think it is racist to identify the origins, but I saw the last thread was closed because of this and was wondering why (again, not knowing what other posts/subjects were discussed).

The Spanish Flu probably originated in the Midwest United States, not like we're blaming Kansas for 50,000,000 deaths. So yeah it is kind of racist because the only reason people would do it is to criticize Chinese people.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#14 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:12 pm

The origins issue with covid is interesting. It used to be relatively common to name diseases based on their origin. Spanish Flu (which was probably from Kansas and mutated to be deadly in troop depots in England), Russian Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc. Calling this Wuhan Flu would be following precedent. Unfortunately people have used this as an excuse to attack asians when they had absolutely nothing to do with the origins. That's not even marginally OK.

OTOH, the rush to discount origin stories has clouded over how this emerged. I'm not sure if its been covered here but there is evidence of community spread of covid all over the world in December which shouldn't be possible based on China's official story. Harvard did an analysis and found significant evidence that covid was raging in Wuhan months before China admitted it existed. Beyond that, there are lots of stories of the Chinese communist party covering up data, punishing whistleblowers, etc. China's handling of this has crushed the entire planet.

Because we can't talk about this due to concerns about racism, I think we are doomed to repeat this whole thing. We aren't going to put fixes in place to stop this kind of situation from recurring and spreading globally.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#15 » by musiqsoulchild » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:09 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Wingy wrote:
cubd8 wrote:Is it racist to identify where this came from? I haven't read the previous threads/posts, and I clearly don't think it is racist to identify the origins, but I saw the last thread was closed because of this and was wondering why (again, not knowing what other posts/subjects were discussed).


The other thread was closed for the same reason all threads get closed here.

It reached 100 pages.

But - yes, it’s racist.

If a virus started in say, the swamps of Florida, you can be damn certain the president wouldn’t be constantly lambasting Floridians about the Florida virus. Or do you really think he’d call it that?


FLOVIDA?


Oooh....getting strong Pam Bondi and Desantis vibes with that one.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#16 » by musiqsoulchild » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:17 pm

coldfish wrote:The origins issue with covid is interesting. It used to be relatively common to name diseases based on their origin. Spanish Flu (which was probably from Kansas and mutated to be deadly in troop depots in England), Russian Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc. Calling this Wuhan Flu would be following precedent. Unfortunately people have used this as an excuse to attack asians when they had absolutely nothing to do with the origins. That's not even marginally OK.

OTOH, the rush to discount origin stories has clouded over how this emerged. I'm not sure if its been covered here but there is evidence of community spread of covid all over the world in December which shouldn't be possible based on China's official story. Harvard did an analysis and found significant evidence that covid was raging in Wuhan months before China admitted it existed. Beyond that, there are lots of stories of the Chinese communist party covering up data, punishing whistleblowers, etc. China's handling of this has crushed the entire planet.

Because we can't talk about this due to concerns about racism, I think we are doomed to repeat this whole thing. We aren't going to put fixes in place to stop this kind of situation from recurring and spreading globally.


We should absolutely talk about it WHILE not being racist. We have done this before. Heck, we have EVEN been racist as well as problem solved independent of racism.

We killed about 150,000 people in Japan just because their army was obstinate.

We were also racist AF towards Japanese immigrants in general leading up to that time as well as after the end of the war.

You dont stop analyzing and problem solving because of fears of being branded racist or any other "ist".

Similarly, you dont stop the entire analysis with racism. For example, the thinking that if the virus originated in China...then it must be bad and state sponsored.

That's bat crazy. And is the angle Trump and his army of crazies have held onto resolutely from Day 1 of our response to TREAT Covid.

How does one impact the other? Dropping the nukes ended WW2. Japan was the only hold out in the Axis powers and vowed to keep on fighting.

Racism towards China KEPT people angry and focused on the wrong enemy. And it was done purely for re-election purposes by Trump.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#17 » by Wingy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:50 pm

coldfish wrote:The origins issue with covid is interesting. It used to be relatively common to name diseases based on their origin. Spanish Flu (which was probably from Kansas and mutated to be deadly in troop depots in England), Russian Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc. Calling this Wuhan Flu would be following precedent. Unfortunately people have used this as an excuse to attack asians when they had absolutely nothing to do with the origins. That's not even marginally OK.

OTOH, the rush to discount origin stories has clouded over how this emerged. I'm not sure if its been covered here but there is evidence of community spread of covid all over the world in December which shouldn't be possible based on China's official story. Harvard did an analysis and found significant evidence that covid was raging in Wuhan months before China admitted it existed. Beyond that, there are lots of stories of the Chinese communist party covering up data, punishing whistleblowers, etc. China's handling of this has crushed the entire planet.

Because we can't talk about this due to concerns about racism, I think we are doomed to repeat this whole thing. We aren't going to put fixes in place to stop this kind of situation from recurring and spreading globally.


For once, I think your take is way off.

There’s a huge difference in how our “leader” uses it lazily in press conferences ...which only inspires xenophobia, and racism - and serious inquiry calling out facts, and holes in the story.

The latter requires real, serious leadership that coordinates with a surely willing international community. No one’s against that, nor will reasonably call it racist if sticking to the known facts (or “facts”).
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#18 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:11 pm

Wingy wrote:
coldfish wrote:The origins issue with covid is interesting. It used to be relatively common to name diseases based on their origin. Spanish Flu (which was probably from Kansas and mutated to be deadly in troop depots in England), Russian Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc. Calling this Wuhan Flu would be following precedent. Unfortunately people have used this as an excuse to attack asians when they had absolutely nothing to do with the origins. That's not even marginally OK.

OTOH, the rush to discount origin stories has clouded over how this emerged. I'm not sure if its been covered here but there is evidence of community spread of covid all over the world in December which shouldn't be possible based on China's official story. Harvard did an analysis and found significant evidence that covid was raging in Wuhan months before China admitted it existed. Beyond that, there are lots of stories of the Chinese communist party covering up data, punishing whistleblowers, etc. China's handling of this has crushed the entire planet.

Because we can't talk about this due to concerns about racism, I think we are doomed to repeat this whole thing. We aren't going to put fixes in place to stop this kind of situation from recurring and spreading globally.


For once, I think your take is way off.

There’s a huge difference in how our “leader” uses it lazily in press conferences ...which only inspires xenophobia, and racism - and serious inquiry calling out facts, and holes in the story.

The latter requires real, serious leadership that coordinates with a surely willing international community. No one’s against that, nor will reasonably call it racist if sticking to the known facts (or “facts”).


First, let me make it clear that I think that Trump's actions and decisions during covid19 were abhorrent to the point where they will be studied for centuries. This is going in the history books and nothing I would say regarding covid is a defense of his overall handling of the situation.

From what I have seen both online and from politicians is that there is an automatic pushback on everything surrounding him. People are actively siding with China as an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type scenario and that's just wrong. I strongly disagree with you that "no one is against investigation". Even mention something regarding China's abysmal handling of covid and their aggressive attempts to cover up the truth and people will immediately shout you down. Their behavior here is going to end up getting covered up, which means it will happen again.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#19 » by Dresden » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Wingy wrote:
coldfish wrote:The origins issue with covid is interesting. It used to be relatively common to name diseases based on their origin. Spanish Flu (which was probably from Kansas and mutated to be deadly in troop depots in England), Russian Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc. Calling this Wuhan Flu would be following precedent. Unfortunately people have used this as an excuse to attack asians when they had absolutely nothing to do with the origins. That's not even marginally OK.

OTOH, the rush to discount origin stories has clouded over how this emerged. I'm not sure if its been covered here but there is evidence of community spread of covid all over the world in December which shouldn't be possible based on China's official story. Harvard did an analysis and found significant evidence that covid was raging in Wuhan months before China admitted it existed. Beyond that, there are lots of stories of the Chinese communist party covering up data, punishing whistleblowers, etc. China's handling of this has crushed the entire planet.

Because we can't talk about this due to concerns about racism, I think we are doomed to repeat this whole thing. We aren't going to put fixes in place to stop this kind of situation from recurring and spreading globally.


For once, I think your take is way off.

There’s a huge difference in how our “leader” uses it lazily in press conferences ...which only inspires xenophobia, and racism - and serious inquiry calling out facts, and holes in the story.

The latter requires real, serious leadership that coordinates with a surely willing international community. No one’s against that, nor will reasonably call it racist if sticking to the known facts (or “facts”).


Obviously, there's a lot of work to be done by the international health community to be better prepared and coordinated after this. And I'm sure the good people who work in this field will be putting a lot of energy into this. On a political front, I'm sure that Biden is going to stop the withdrawal of the US from the WHO, do things like re-opening the field branch that Trump had shut down in China, which studied things like this.

Of course, nations have to be willing to be more transparent if they are experiencing an outbreak. At the same time, what the Trump administration has done by trying to blame this whole thing on China, even saying they would take China to court to try recoup damages, or making allegations that China let this escape from a lab, only makes it less likely countries will be willing to announce an outbreak in the future.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#20 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:18 pm

coldfish wrote:The origins issue with covid is interesting. It used to be relatively common to name diseases based on their origin. Spanish Flu (which was probably from Kansas and mutated to be deadly in troop depots in England), Russian Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc. Calling this Wuhan Flu would be following precedent. Unfortunately people have used this as an excuse to attack asians when they had absolutely nothing to do with the origins. That's not even marginally OK.

OTOH, the rush to discount origin stories has clouded over how this emerged. I'm not sure if its been covered here but there is evidence of community spread of covid all over the world in December which shouldn't be possible based on China's official story. Harvard did an analysis and found significant evidence that covid was raging in Wuhan months before China admitted it existed. Beyond that, there are lots of stories of the Chinese communist party covering up data, punishing whistleblowers, etc. China's handling of this has crushed the entire planet.

Because we can't talk about this due to concerns about racism, I think we are doomed to repeat this whole thing. We aren't going to put fixes in place to stop this kind of situation from recurring and spreading globally.


Well said. I think the term has been used by racists, which is 100% not ok, but not holding the parties responsible for the outbreak and virus creation is a disastrous approach too.

Some world leaders have condemned China for the outbreak, but not enough weight has been put on their shoulders IMO.

How will everyone feel when this happens again in 3 years? And we have to take out another 1-2 year chunk from our lives and quarantine?
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