Image ImageImage Image

OT: COVID-19 thread #4

Moderators: HomoSapien, Ice Man, DASMACKDOWN, dougthonus, Payt10, fleet, GimmeDat, kulaz3000, AshyLarrysDiaper, RedBulls23, Tommy Udo 6

Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#401 » by Dresden » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:18 pm

2018C3 wrote:My thoughts on how to effectively control the border, and a pathway to citizenship.

I would like for the government to issue work permits to non US citizens and to also simplify the process in acquiring a permit. Then the Government could control immigration by strictly enforcing laws and subjecting the employers and business owners with large fines who are caught hiring people who do not have permits.

This would be a easy way to both allow and control the flow of immigration. If you don't have a permit, you cant work. If a immigrant on a work permit gets convicted of a felony before they become a US citizen, sorry but you lost your chance at citizenship.

I'm not for kicking existing law abiding productive people out of the country who have been working here, and as a compromise would let any non US citizen who is already in the country with out a violent past stay and receive a work permit.

With a system like this, After a work permit is issued people from all over the world could then legally live here and have a pathway to establishing US citizenship for law abiding immigrants. The more good people we have working here, the stronger this country will be.

I think some of these laws are already in place, they are just not being enforced. If you want a system like this to work, you have go after the employers who are sneaking by and short changing non US citizens with lower wages. The amount of immigration could simply be controlled by the amount of work permits that get issued each year depending on the yearly workforce needs.


That's a good plan. The one catch is that employers won't hire someone unless they are already here. So people would still be trying to enter illegally, then hope to get a job once here. But you are correct in that if they went after employers, it would stop the hiring of illegal workers very quickly. It's something they could be doing now, but there is not the political will to do this (fortunately, IMO). So right now, it's kind of a wink-wink system. The govt. knows companies are using illegal workers, employers know that they are hiring illegal workers, but because businesses need those workers, all parties concerned just look the other way when it comes to enforcement.

Having an above board way for immigrants to be granted some sort of legal status would be the best solution all around, were it not for the anti-immigrant sentiment shared by so many in this country, and exploited by politicians to win favor (see Donald Trump).
User avatar
PlayerUp
Veteran
Posts: 2,735
And1: 1,241
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#402 » by PlayerUp » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:56 pm

Dresden wrote:
2018C3 wrote:My thoughts on how to effectively control the border, and a pathway to citizenship.

I would like for the government to issue work permits to non US citizens and to also simplify the process in acquiring a permit. Then the Government could control immigration by strictly enforcing laws and subjecting the employers and business owners with large fines who are caught hiring people who do not have permits.

This would be a easy way to both allow and control the flow of immigration. If you don't have a permit, you cant work. If a immigrant on a work permit gets convicted of a felony before they become a US citizen, sorry but you lost your chance at citizenship.

I'm not for kicking existing law abiding productive people out of the country who have been working here, and as a compromise would let any non US citizen who is already in the country with out a violent past stay and receive a work permit.

With a system like this, After a work permit is issued people from all over the world could then legally live here and have a pathway to establishing US citizenship for law abiding immigrants. The more good people we have working here, the stronger this country will be.

I think some of these laws are already in place, they are just not being enforced. If you want a system like this to work, you have go after the employers who are sneaking by and short changing non US citizens with lower wages. The amount of immigration could simply be controlled by the amount of work permits that get issued each year depending on the yearly workforce needs.


That's a good plan. The one catch is that employers won't hire someone unless they are already here. So people would still be trying to enter illegally, then hope to get a job once here. But you are correct in that if they went after employers, it would stop the hiring of illegal workers very quickly. It's something they could be doing now, but there is not the political will to do this (fortunately, IMO). So right now, it's kind of a wink-wink system. The govt. knows companies are using illegal workers, employers know that they are hiring illegal workers, but because businesses need those workers, all parties concerned just look the other way when it comes to enforcement.

Having an above board way for immigrants to be granted some sort of legal status would be the best solution all around, were it not for the anti-immigrant sentiment shared by so many in this country, and exploited by politicians to win favor (see Donald Trump).


What is the minimum wage for these people with work permits?
Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#403 » by Dresden » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:04 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
2018C3 wrote:My thoughts on how to effectively control the border, and a pathway to citizenship.

I would like for the government to issue work permits to non US citizens and to also simplify the process in acquiring a permit. Then the Government could control immigration by strictly enforcing laws and subjecting the employers and business owners with large fines who are caught hiring people who do not have permits.

This would be a easy way to both allow and control the flow of immigration. If you don't have a permit, you cant work. If a immigrant on a work permit gets convicted of a felony before they become a US citizen, sorry but you lost your chance at citizenship.

I'm not for kicking existing law abiding productive people out of the country who have been working here, and as a compromise would let any non US citizen who is already in the country with out a violent past stay and receive a work permit.

With a system like this, After a work permit is issued people from all over the world could then legally live here and have a pathway to establishing US citizenship for law abiding immigrants. The more good people we have working here, the stronger this country will be.

I think some of these laws are already in place, they are just not being enforced. If you want a system like this to work, you have go after the employers who are sneaking by and short changing non US citizens with lower wages. The amount of immigration could simply be controlled by the amount of work permits that get issued each year depending on the yearly workforce needs.


That's a good plan. The one catch is that employers won't hire someone unless they are already here. So people would still be trying to enter illegally, then hope to get a job once here. But you are correct in that if they went after employers, it would stop the hiring of illegal workers very quickly. It's something they could be doing now, but there is not the political will to do this (fortunately, IMO). So right now, it's kind of a wink-wink system. The govt. knows companies are using illegal workers, employers know that they are hiring illegal workers, but because businesses need those workers, all parties concerned just look the other way when it comes to enforcement.

Having an above board way for immigrants to be granted some sort of legal status would be the best solution all around, were it not for the anti-immigrant sentiment shared by so many in this country, and exploited by politicians to win favor (see Donald Trump).


What is the minimum wage for these people with work permits?


Should be the same as for anyone else....
User avatar
PlayerUp
Veteran
Posts: 2,735
And1: 1,241
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#404 » by PlayerUp » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:05 pm

2018C3 wrote:I'm not for kicking existing law abiding productive people out of the country who have been working here, and as a compromise would let any non US citizen who is already in the country with out a violent past stay and receive a work permit.


As long as they're legally coming into the country sure. The reward for doing it the proper way is citizenship. The compromise for those who illegally entered is no citizenship but you can reside here with a permit as you stated if they state and/or county allows these type of permits. Possibly make a large fine if you entered illegally ($50k+ to get citizenship) for those who came here illegally and became successful? On a federal level you will not get all 50 states to agree on illegal immigration. That's why it has to be done on a state level for most of this.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Veteran
Posts: 2,735
And1: 1,241
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#405 » by PlayerUp » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:08 pm

Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:What is the minimum wage for these people with work permits?


Should be the same as for anyone else....


A good % of people are hiring illegal immigrants to exploit them on lower than minimum wage. This will not stop companies/individuals from hiring illegal immigrants without a permit.
2018C3
Pro Prospect
Posts: 781
And1: 493
Joined: Jul 14, 2018
   

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#406 » by 2018C3 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:12 pm

Dresden wrote:
2018C3 wrote:My thoughts on how to effectively control the border, and a pathway to citizenship.

I would like for the government to issue work permits to non US citizens and to also simplify the process in acquiring a permit. Then the Government could control immigration by strictly enforcing laws and subjecting the employers and business owners with large fines who are caught hiring people who do not have permits.

This would be a easy way to both allow and control the flow of immigration. If you don't have a permit, you cant work. If a immigrant on a work permit gets convicted of a felony before they become a US citizen, sorry but you lost your chance at citizenship.

I'm not for kicking existing law abiding productive people out of the country who have been working here, and as a compromise would let any non US citizen who is already in the country with out a violent past stay and receive a work permit.

With a system like this, After a work permit is issued people from all over the world could then legally live here and have a pathway to establishing US citizenship for law abiding immigrants. The more good people we have working here, the stronger this country will be.

I think some of these laws are already in place, they are just not being enforced. If you want a system like this to work, you have go after the employers who are sneaking by and short changing non US citizens with lower wages. The amount of immigration could simply be controlled by the amount of work permits that get issued each year depending on the yearly workforce needs.


That's a good plan. The one catch is that employers won't hire someone unless they are already here. So people would still be trying to enter illegally, then hope to get a job once here. But you are correct in that if they went after employers, it would stop the hiring of illegal workers very quickly. It's something they could be doing now, but there is not the political will to do this (fortunately, IMO). So right now, it's kind of a wink-wink system. The govt. knows companies are using illegal workers, employers know that they are hiring illegal workers, but because businesses need those workers, all parties concerned just look the other way when it comes to enforcement.

Having an above board way for immigrants to be granted some sort of legal status would be the best solution all around, were it not for the anti-immigrant sentiment shared by so many in this country, and exploited by politicians to win favor (see Donald Trump).


You could easily provide work permits to people entering the country, before they even have a job lined up. (Work permits could just give a individual the right to work). You can also allow any extended family members like children, or elderly adults that they can support to live with them to prevent the breakup of the family structure. If permit holders are legally working, they are also paying taxes and should be able to support any family members they choose to have live or visit with them.

The best thing going forward is to give current US immigrant residents a path to citizenship. (Since firm rules have not been in place for years). And then develop policies while moving forward to provide a equal chance for anyone who wants to enter the US in the future.

You can't just kick out people and break up families who have already been living here for years, even if they entered the country illegally. This is now there home.

Just identify loop holes, keep the people who already here, and find productive ways to manage future immigration to benefit the country and its workforce going forward.
2018C3
Pro Prospect
Posts: 781
And1: 493
Joined: Jul 14, 2018
   

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#407 » by 2018C3 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:49 pm

The last time I was in traffic court, I messed up and got pulled pulled over for not wearing a seat belt, (About 8-9 years Ago). After getting pulled over, I did not have my current insurance card with me, and had to go to court to prove current insurance.

As I was waiting for my name to be called, I was watching the other cases before me. What I remember, is several immigrant people showed up in court who did not even have licenses or insurance, and the judge on duty just tossed out the cases with minimal fines. I remember my fine for not wearing a seat belt exceeded some of the other cases which I thought would have penalized more.

This did not sit well with me, and I did not think the system in place was fair to US citizens.

After I got home, I found traffic instances were treated differently in the county due to the access availability of licenses and insurance to immigrants. I do not think US residents should be treated harsher in these type of cases. If you are living here you should have access to both licenses and insurance, and be treated by the same rules US citizens have to abide.

__________________________________________________________________________

The funniest part or the story, is the night before a high school friends wife through a surprise 40th birthday party for a friend. And that party took place in the exact same room my court appearance took place in. Just 12-14 hours earlier there was a group of my old high school friends drinking beers in the same room that court was in session the following day.

It was a weird experience. The next day I was looking around the same room thinking to myself, "just a few hours ago last night the bar was over there, and the dJ was right there where the judge was now sitting".

Both the rented out party room, and the next day court house occurred in Downers Grove IL.
Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#408 » by Dresden » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:34 am

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:What is the minimum wage for these people with work permits?


Should be the same as for anyone else....


A good % of people are hiring illegal immigrants to exploit them on lower than minimum wage. This will not stop companies/individuals from hiring illegal immigrants without a permit.


Unless you are paying them under the table in cash, you cannot pay someone less than minimum wage and have it show up on a payroll report that way, unless you want to open yourself up to a lawsuit or govt. fine. Workers without a strong voice will always tend to be exploited in one way or another, but there's only so much you can do. That's one reason why unions were so important back when they were powerful.
Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#409 » by Dresden » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:38 am

2018C3 wrote:The last time I was in traffic court, I messed up and got pulled pulled over for not wearing a seat belt, (About 8-9 years Ago). After getting pulled over, I did not have my current insurance card with me, and had to go to court to prove current insurance.

As I was waiting for my name to be called, I was watching the other cases before me. What I remember, is several immigrant people showed up in court who did not even have licenses or insurance, and the judge on duty just tossed out the cases with minimal fines. I remember my fine for not wearing a seat belt exceeded some of the other cases which I thought would have penalized more.

This did not sit well with me, and I did not think the system in place was fair to US citizens.

After I got home, I found traffic instances were treated differently in the county due to the access availability of licenses and insurance to immigrants. I do not think US residents should be treated harsher in these type of cases. If you are living here you should have access to both licenses and insurance, and be treated by the same rules US citizens have to abide.

__________________________________________________________________________

The funniest part or the story, is the night before a high school friends wife through a surprise 40th birthday party for a friend. And that party took place in the exact same room my court appearance took place in. Just 12-14 hours earlier there was a group of my old high school friends drinking beers in the same room that court was in session the following day.

It was a weird experience. The next day I was looking around the same room thinking to myself, "just a few hours ago last night the bar was over there, and the dJ was right there where the judge was now sitting".

Both the rented out party room, and the next day court house occurred in Downers Grove IL.


Yeah, that is not right. OTH, I know some undocumented workers here that have lost their vehicles because of routine traffic stops. They get pulled over for something, they don't have a license, so the car gets impounded. By the time they can get the money together to retrieve the car, it's often not worth it any longer, so they just go buy another cheap car.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 38,083
And1: 10,459
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#410 » by dice » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:07 am

PlayerUp wrote:
dice wrote:it seems to me the word 'caravan' has been used to connote racial menace in the context of immigration. a group of 100 people coming together for protection is probably better all around than the alternative


No matter how we can positively spin it, marching to the border is dangerous

outdoors in the heat with social distancing and/or masks? hardly. hell, allowing in a million such people might actually lower the COVID rate in this country...assuming they weren't stuffed into cages as soon as they arrived

The best way to fight this is strengthen immigration in these key central america countries so they can apply directly there versus walking thousands of miles to the border. States like CA could then ask the federal government that they're in need of X amount of new employees and allow them an opportunity of some sort. In addition setup education and programs for them to apply to better jobs that will become available in the states. In addition boost offshore businesses and give key benefits for relocating your offshore businesses to these areas. Focus more on central america and less in countries outside of South/Central/North America. We want Central America to prosper and less China as it boosts our economy when the surrounding countries are successful.

probably some good ideas in there
peter pumpkinhead told the truth
User avatar
PlayerUp
Veteran
Posts: 2,735
And1: 1,241
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#411 » by PlayerUp » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:57 am

Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
Should be the same as for anyone else....


A good % of people are hiring illegal immigrants to exploit them on lower than minimum wage. This will not stop companies/individuals from hiring illegal immigrants without a permit.


Unless you are paying them under the table in cash, you cannot pay someone less than minimum wage and have it show up on a payroll report that way, unless you want to open yourself up to a lawsuit or govt. fine. Workers without a strong voice will always tend to be exploited in one way or another, but there's only so much you can do. That's one reason why unions were so important back when they were powerful.


People always cheat the system to gain. A certain % of people for these illegal immigration is to gain off of it. These people are just looking for an opportunity to earn money and they're being exploited.

This is something an effective congress should really sit down and focus on. Figure out where we need to be with the minimum wage and implement a immigration system that works. It's mind boggling how after decades this issue is still unsolved when the majority of America is on somewhat the same page with strong borders but opportunities for outsiders. However that is the problem with America today and the establishment controlling the country refusing to implement changes.
Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#412 » by Dresden » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:19 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
A good % of people are hiring illegal immigrants to exploit them on lower than minimum wage. This will not stop companies/individuals from hiring illegal immigrants without a permit.


Unless you are paying them under the table in cash, you cannot pay someone less than minimum wage and have it show up on a payroll report that way, unless you want to open yourself up to a lawsuit or govt. fine. Workers without a strong voice will always tend to be exploited in one way or another, but there's only so much you can do. That's one reason why unions were so important back when they were powerful.


People always cheat the system to gain. A certain % of people for these illegal immigration is to gain off of it. These people are just looking for an opportunity to earn money and they're being exploited.

This is something an effective congress should really sit down and focus on. Figure out where we need to be with the minimum wage and implement a immigration system that works. It's mind boggling how after decades this issue is still unsolved when the majority of America is on somewhat the same page with strong borders but opportunities for outsiders. However that is the problem with America today and the establishment controlling the country refusing to implement changes.


I agree it is ridiculous that nothing gets done on immigration, but I disagree that people are on the same page with it. My understanding is that a lot of people DON"T want to see any legislation passed that would give immigrants more rights, such as work permits. That's why so many conservative politicians will block any bill that tries to do that. Conservatives for a long time now have built anti-immigrant messaging into their platform, so now a large block of the country wants nothing to do with improving the lives of undocumented workers.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Veteran
Posts: 2,735
And1: 1,241
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#413 » by PlayerUp » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:05 pm

Dresden wrote:I agree it is ridiculous that nothing gets done on immigration, but I disagree that people are on the same page with it. My understanding is that a lot of people DON"T want to see any legislation passed that would give immigrants more rights, such as work permits. That's why so many conservative politicians will block any bill that tries to do that. Conservatives for a long time now have built anti-immigrant messaging into their platform, so now a large block of the country wants nothing to do with improving the lives of undocumented workers.


Which is why it's ultimately going to have to be a state decision in the end. California is already overruling the federal law not working with federal officers and allowing illegal immigrants to have rights and flexibility to live in the state. There is no way you'll get all 50 states to agree to a reformed immigration ruling and they'll fight it going against federal policy. States ultimately need more power and control with the ever changing country.

As for conservatives, I think the moderate ones are flexible on this. They want more immigration if it means to boosting jobs. Giving incentives for companies to move to the United States. They obviously don't like things like Biden trying to implement 100 day ban on removal of illegal immigrants.
Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#414 » by Dresden » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:36 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:I agree it is ridiculous that nothing gets done on immigration, but I disagree that people are on the same page with it. My understanding is that a lot of people DON"T want to see any legislation passed that would give immigrants more rights, such as work permits. That's why so many conservative politicians will block any bill that tries to do that. Conservatives for a long time now have built anti-immigrant messaging into their platform, so now a large block of the country wants nothing to do with improving the lives of undocumented workers.


Which is why it's ultimately going to have to be a state decision in the end. California is already overruling the federal law not working with federal officers and allowing illegal immigrants to have rights and flexibility to live in the state. There is no way you'll get all 50 states to agree to a reformed immigration ruling and they'll fight it going against federal policy. States ultimately need more power and control with the ever changing country.

As for conservatives, I think the moderate ones are flexible on this. They want more immigration if it means to boosting jobs. Giving incentives for companies to move to the United States. They obviously don't like things like Biden trying to implement 100 day ban on removal of illegal immigrants.


I think letting states decide would be a good idea in principle, but immigration is really a national issue, not a state issue, so I don't know that states technically would have the authority to make their own laws regarding immigrants legal status.
Picasso
Rookie
Posts: 1,129
And1: 894
Joined: Apr 14, 2018
         

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#415 » by Picasso » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:37 am

Just lost my Aunt to this bull.
I had to jump off the boat to walk on water.
Chi town
RealGM
Posts: 20,029
And1: 4,793
Joined: Aug 10, 2004

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#416 » by Chi town » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:06 am

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
A good % of people are hiring illegal immigrants to exploit them on lower than minimum wage. This will not stop companies/individuals from hiring illegal immigrants without a permit.


Unless you are paying them under the table in cash, you cannot pay someone less than minimum wage and have it show up on a payroll report that way, unless you want to open yourself up to a lawsuit or govt. fine. Workers without a strong voice will always tend to be exploited in one way or another, but there's only so much you can do. That's one reason why unions were so important back when they were powerful.


People always cheat the system to gain. A certain % of people for these illegal immigration is to gain off of it. These people are just looking for an opportunity to earn money and they're being exploited.

This is something an effective congress should really sit down and focus on. Figure out where we need to be with the minimum wage and implement a immigration system that works. It's mind boggling how after decades this issue is still unsolved when the majority of America is on somewhat the same page with strong borders but opportunities for outsiders. However that is the problem with America today and the establishment controlling the country refusing to implement changes.


The analogy I use is how much would wine from
Napa valley cost of those vineyard workers were really paid fair wages and not exploited?

We go to Napa a lot and when you watch who is working... let’s just say I’ve never seen a white person working the vines. Although it’s mostly American white people doing the pouring.

We have to absolutely give rights with the right conditions and stop both illegal immigrations and the capitalist machine that exploits them and voted to never give them rights.
Chi town
RealGM
Posts: 20,029
And1: 4,793
Joined: Aug 10, 2004

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#417 » by Chi town » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:07 am

Picasso wrote:Just lost my Aunt to this bull.


So sorry, Picasso. Prayers going up for you.
Dresden
General Manager
Posts: 8,064
And1: 4,263
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#418 » by Dresden » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:56 pm

Picasso wrote:Just lost my Aunt to this bull.


I'm sorry to hear that. So many people have died.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Veteran
Posts: 2,735
And1: 1,241
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#419 » by PlayerUp » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:16 am

Chi town wrote:The analogy I use is how much would wine from
Napa valley cost of those vineyard workers were really paid fair wages and not exploited?

We go to Napa a lot and when you watch who is working... let’s just say I’ve never seen a white person working the vines. Although it’s mostly American white people doing the pouring.

We have to absolutely give rights with the right conditions and stop both illegal immigrations and the capitalist machine that exploits them and voted to never give them rights.


I agree but sadly unless congress can get together and unite especially on bipartisan issues, nothing will get done. We finally saw a little bit of unity this week when the robinhood app tried to screw over small time investors and both parties were in full support to end this corruption. Times are changing and both the progressives and patriots want to take this country in a completely different path, they both however are targeting the same areas of corruption.
AirLaVine8
General Manager
Posts: 8,558
And1: 195
Joined: Apr 09, 2002
 

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#420 » by AirLaVine8 » Mon Feb 1, 2021 11:05 am

Up until 2 days ago, Australia had gone basically 2 weeks with no new community transmission. All new cases were only people coming home from overseas and being put into medi-hotel quarantine for 2 weeks. But then a security guard at one of the hotels in Perth somehow got it, and there is a cluster outbreak there. Western Australia has gone into a full 5 day lockdown and all other states and territories have closed the border to WA until they go 14 days with no new community cases.
Twitter: @bulls_troy

Return to Chicago Bulls