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Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season

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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1941 » by MrSparkle » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:02 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
I hear what you are saying and absolutely agree, CP3 though from a timeline sense was a bandaid and they were looking for a core for Giannis length of contract. I also absolutely agree CP3 would have been a huge upgrade over Holiday for the next year or two which is really the championship window. I never liked the Holiday trade it reeked of desperation because it was. They pooped the bed with letting Brogdon go. Also CP3 is still likely more effective in 3 years than holiday. Maybe I just don’t think that much of holiday though.

CP3 like you said will be a high level player in a couple of years but he also could be traded as an expiring to move on to the next star. Just never really felt Holiday was what they needed. CP3 can create and run the offense which is what they need when things get hard in the 4th.



Milwaukee dropped the ball twice on this. That’s why they just had to pay the wrong guy to try to keep Giannis. CP3 was a better this year guy and they are competing this year... that’s why Giannis likely should have left. That’s also why these stars are building their own teams, it’s tough to do it the “right” way. Milwaukee is more than all in with the 2 time MVP and they are still short on the bet. Holiday wins big though, he just won the Otto Porter sweepstakes. Granted he is better than OPJ massive, massive overpay. The more I watch teams fumble and as time passes I respect Krause more and more. Can’t ever forgive his hubris but he did do a good job with the opportunity presented him.


Milwaukee's been stuck since the Brogdon error. But the first major mistake was trading for Bledsoe with plans to extend him. Could've done better with their cap and draft capital. Wasn't crazy about paying Brook a robust extension. Their cap situation was and is preposterous. It's cool that ownership was willing to pay top dollar for keeping the contender as competitive as possible (besides letting Brogdon go), but I just don't know how they improve that team going forward. It's a really thin roster. Their drop-off after the 6th best man (tie between Portis/Brook/DiVincenzo) is brutal. It's basically a 7-man rotation, missing a high-caliber scoring guard.

They overpaid for Jrue, but in the end, the Bledsoe/Hill/FRP package wasn't attractive at all. A ton of deadweight salary there; IMO both guys were over-the-hill reserves, costing almost $30m to 2 years of cap, and Bledsoe's locked further. So they had to overpay with that big gamble of picks to make it worth NOP's time; between a 30yo and 35yo. OKC might've shared NOP's steep price in picks from MIL (5 including the swaps?); that's just asking for trouble, when your return is going turning 36yo at post-season.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1942 » by kodo » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:06 pm

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:I love Luka as a amazing player.. But who else also thinks he is probably the biggest crybaby in NBA? Complaining about no foul calls, aaaaall the time.. Annoying!


I think he understands NBA officiating is extremely arbitrary and highly influenced by reputation and he needs to establish himself as a player that gets fouled all the time, for the benefit of his career.

Good young players are realizing this. Ben Simmons has also said he's comes out swinging and clubbing his defensive assignments because he needs to establish himself as someone who normally plays this way so he'll get called less for it.

Even Stacey mentioned this in one of the recent games, you need to establish that you're a physical player or team and you'll get away with more contact at the end of games or future games. I remember years ago JVG pre-tip off on a Heat finals game, how "wonderful" it was how Lebron "manages" the officials by extensively talking to them pre-game.

FWIW, I think this "style" of officiating is complete BS and more politics than sport, but that's the world these kids live in and they're just trying to win.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1943 » by imagge » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:15 pm

Interesting Tidbit

"We now have some more information on the Golden State Warriors’ inactivity at the NBA trade deadline courtesy of former center Andrew Bogut.
“I have it on good authority that they had an offer actually for Lonzo Ball and I think a throw-in, a pick, for Oubre and the Warriors turned it down funnily enough, but I thought that was a pretty good deal to shed some salary and get a pick back,” Bogut said on his Rogue Bogues podcast."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/warriors-reportedly-turned-down-lonzo-ball-trade-offer-at-the-deadline/ar-BB1fke0M?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

So the warriors turn down a Lonzo and pick for Oubre but the Pelicans won't take Lauri for Lonzo straight up? Don't know if this speaks of Lonzo's worth or Lauri's worth around the league?
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1944 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:35 pm

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:I love Luka as a amazing player.. But who else also thinks he is probably the biggest crybaby in NBA?


Zach Lowe thinks. He wrote about that.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1945 » by MGB8 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 7:13 pm

imagge wrote:Interesting Tidbit

"We now have some more information on the Golden State Warriors’ inactivity at the NBA trade deadline courtesy of former center Andrew Bogut.
“I have it on good authority that they had an offer actually for Lonzo Ball and I think a throw-in, a pick, for Oubre and the Warriors turned it down funnily enough, but I thought that was a pretty good deal to shed some salary and get a pick back,” Bogut said on his Rogue Bogues podcast."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/warriors-reportedly-turned-down-lonzo-ball-trade-offer-at-the-deadline/ar-BB1fke0M?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

So the warriors turn down a Lonzo and pick for Oubre but the Pelicans won't take Lauri for Lonzo straight up? Don't know if this speaks of Lonzo's worth or Lauri's worth around the league?


Or Bogut is wrong.

Chances are that it was the Warriors calling up the Pels and offering Oubre and a pick for Ball, and that got lost in translation.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1946 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 6, 2021 7:36 pm

kodo
wrote:
I think he understands NBA officiating is extremely arbitrary and highly influenced by reputation and he needs to establish himself as a player that gets fouled all the time, for the benefit of his career.


Hmmm. Jimmy Butler rarely complains to the referees and he gets a ton of FTs, while rarely being called fouls himself. I'm not sure there' s much of of a correlation between bellyaching and foul calls.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1947 » by Wingy » Tue Apr 6, 2021 7:43 pm

DuckIII wrote:Watching Nets/Knicks game and have the Nets feed. I had no idea Sarah Kustok was calling games full time now. She’s really good at it. She could be the next Doris Burke.


I’ve probably noted this on the board before. For some odd reason, I always have this weird, random thought that Doris would be just about the coolest aunt ever. She’s not even that much older than me, but I’m ready if she needs additional nephews that wanna talk hoop! :lol:
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1948 » by Butler4thewin » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:19 pm

where do you guys rank lavine and vuc individually as nba best players ranking top 20 top 100 just looking to see your guys thoughts on subject
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1949 » by othawhitemeat » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:45 pm

Butler4thewin wrote:where do you guys rank lavine and vuc individually as nba best players ranking top 20 top 100 just looking to see your guys thoughts on subject


I think borderline NBA All Star so around 22-30ish. If Vuce was better at D, I would say around 15-20 and if Zach was a little smarter player and better at D, I would say he would be around 15.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1950 » by TheStig » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:29 pm

othawhitemeat wrote:
Butler4thewin wrote:where do you guys rank lavine and vuc individually as nba best players ranking top 20 top 100 just looking to see your guys thoughts on subject


I think borderline NBA All Star so around 22-30ish. If Vuce was better at D, I would say around 15-20 and if Zach was a little smarter player and better at D, I would say he would be around 15.

Yeah, I think they're closer to the 30 side from what you said. But they're both really good offensively and that should help us get into the post season. Will be interesting to see if we can get some good 3 and D and high IQ guys around them.

It was encouraging to see the FO headed that way with guys like Brown and Theis at the deadline.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1951 » by Ice Man » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:36 pm

538 has Zach at #43 and Vuce at #60. In recent years, the Bulls just don't have guys who rate well on modern analytics, no matter which Bulls player it is or which analytic is used.

If it's any consolation, SGA and Ben Simmons are tied for #64 on its list. (Jokic is far and away in 1st place, I won't argue with that.)
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1952 » by Butler4thewin » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:13 pm

i think qll your guys responses are pretty fair and reasonable....makes me think that our coach is banking on the hope pat turns into a special player in order to get us over into true contenders.....also adding more pieces next season as well but i think by the time pat hits a strong surge we will be in the 33/35 year range for vuc and i doubt hes as dominant by then
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1953 » by MrSparkle » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:23 pm

Ice Man wrote:538 has Zach at #43 and Vuce at #60. In recent years, the Bulls just don't have guys who rate well on modern analytics, no matter which Bulls player it is or which analytic is used.

If it's any consolation, SGA and Ben Simmons are tied for #64 on its list. (Jokic is far and away in 1st place, I won't argue with that.)


I've been a fan of 538, but their WAR formula leads to some absurd rankings.

Granted, it's a hard time for analytics. Schedules and match-ups are all over the place, compounded by flaky stars like Kyrie and Harden. But also, regular season advantages (rebounding, rim protection, 3P shooting which isn't sustainable with playoff pressure and adjustments) just don't matter as much as playmaking and all-around skills (jack-of-all trades, liabilities none), in the playoffs. Also, injuries have left Durant unranked and Davis at #48.

Gobert #2
VanVleet #6
Capella #9
Lebron #11

lol
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1954 » by DASMACKDOWN » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:48 am

Wow Hutch getting DNPs already?

I know he struggled the last few games but didnt think they would pull the plug that fast. I wonder what his mindset is right now.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1955 » by Evil_Headband » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:22 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:Wow Hutch getting DNPs already?

I know he struggled the last few games but didnt think they would pull the plug that fast. I wonder what his mindset is right now.


We’ll see if there is more to this but I’m not surprised. I don’t think they are very invested in Hutch. They liked Gafford and his contract. They also wanted to move Brown and save a little money next year.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1956 » by DuckIII » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:39 am

Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Watching Nets/Knicks game and have the Nets feed. I had no idea Sarah Kustok was calling games full time now. She’s really good at it. She could be the next Doris Burke.


I’ve probably noted this on the board before. For some odd reason, I always have this weird, random thought that Doris would be just about the coolest aunt ever. She’s not even that much older than me, but I’m ready if she needs additional nephews that wanna talk hoop! :lol:


I love Doris Burke. She’s one of my all time favorite analysts. I suspect it’s because she had to work 5x harder than her male counterparts, but no one is more prepared for a game than her. She is loaded with info on both teams before every game and just lets it flow. Plus she’s great at recognizing things on the floor in real time and breaking them down.

We need more analysts like her and less former players like Reggie Miller and Chris Weber who get the jobs just because of who they are. That doesn’t apply to all former players of course, but it applies to a lot of them.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1957 » by DuckIII » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:46 am

Butler4thewin wrote:i think qll your guys responses are pretty fair and reasonable....makes me think that our coach is banking on the hope pat turns into a special player in order to get us over into true contenders.....also adding more pieces next season as well but i think by the time pat hits a strong surge we will be in the 33/35 year range for vuc and i doubt hes as dominant by then


This is part of the issue with the trade, you’re right. For the trade to make sense (going close to all in, but still needing one more big move but with limited assets to do it), the Bulls front office must believe that Patrick Lee Williams will be a star.

The problem is that even if he is, it will take several years and will not overlap much with Vuc. So even in one of the best case scenarios Vuc is a bridge player between eras.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1958 » by Butler4thewin » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:25 am

DuckIII wrote:
Butler4thewin wrote:i think qll your guys responses are pretty fair and reasonable....makes me think that our coach is banking on the hope pat turns into a special player in order to get us over into true contenders.....also adding more pieces next season as well but i think by the time pat hits a strong surge we will be in the 33/35 year range for vuc and i doubt hes as dominant by then


This is part of the issue with the trade, you’re right. For the trade to make sense (going close to all in, but still needing one more big move but with limited assets to do it), the Bulls front office must believe that Patrick Lee Williams will be a star.

The problem is that even if he is, it will take several years and will not overlap much with Vuc. So even in one of the best case scenarios Vuc is a bridge player between eras.

i think this might be partly why opj was traded ....pats getting alot of burn and responsibility on guarding premium guys hes being exposed and even over exposed to everything players and teams throw and good defenders ....if pat pans out we might be ok with a old pau like vuc because pat has superstar potential and if we have that paired with a vette lavine and a skilled big like vuc plus whatever else we have at that point we might have a chance depending on how good pat becomes.....that or we fail or pat becomes good early
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1959 » by TheStig » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:42 am

DuckIII wrote:
Butler4thewin wrote:i think qll your guys responses are pretty fair and reasonable....makes me think that our coach is banking on the hope pat turns into a special player in order to get us over into true contenders.....also adding more pieces next season as well but i think by the time pat hits a strong surge we will be in the 33/35 year range for vuc and i doubt hes as dominant by then


This is part of the issue with the trade, you’re right. For the trade to make sense (going close to all in, but still needing one more big move but with limited assets to do it), the Bulls front office must believe that Patrick Lee Williams will be a star.

The problem is that even if he is, it will take several years and will not overlap much with Vuc. So even in one of the best case scenarios Vuc is a bridge player between eras.

Or the FO was under the gun to get to the playoffs.

Krause had to make the move to get Rose. Who's to say they weren't under pressure to make the move?

You can't worry about timelines. If you're getting an all star for your bench big and a couple of non lotto picks, you just do it. Vuc is a skilled big man and doesn't rely on athleticism, he's not going to drop off much in the next couple of years. The only other way was to tear it down and I just don't think the Reinsdorfs had the patience for that.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2020-21 Season 

Post#1960 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:13 am

Ice Man wrote:538 has Zach at #43 and Vuce at #60. In recent years, the Bulls just don't have guys who rate well on modern analytics, no matter which Bulls player it is or which analytic is used.

It's actually even worse when you consider than Zach and Vuc have been two of the healthiest high volume guys in the league this year, so they have a lot more minutes than many guys ahead of them.

The one year Vuc had a really good WAR year, he had both (mostly) Isaac and Gordon healthy next to him. A couple of super athletic, switchable, versatile defenders. And a couple of archetypes really lacking on this roster. Theis and Pat are about as close as it gets and…well they're not very close. Maybe Pat in like three years, when Vuc likely won't even be here anymore, or will be so unbearably slow everyone will want him gone.

But the blueprint to maximize Vuc is right there. It's clear for everyone to see. If Karnisovas just spends the summer trying to add more offense…well that's not a good idea.

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