Lets talk Zach Lavine

[DJhitek]

Trade him, always felt that way. He has played well enough to earn every penny of his contract based on pure production but I would not hesitate for a second to get future assets for him now.

[TheAlanParsons]

I was extremely impressed with Zach during the preseason. He was playing within the offense, taking good shots and moving the ball. On defense, he was being far more of a ball hawk than he has ever been. This was max contract type play.

Last night, he started out playing that way. Unfortunately, the offense bogged down because the team runs it so slowly and several people (Coby and Wendell) seem outright confused. The passes and angles weren't there. When the team started getting blown out, Zach reverted to hero ball and took selfish shots. His defense suffered.

Zach is going to look really good on a good team. The Bulls have to figure out if they are going to be able to create that situation before Lavine's contract is up. If not, they should probably trade him for everything they can get.

At this point, I feel legitimately bad for Zach.

Zach has never been a max worthy player, or even anything close to it. He was a net (heavily) negative player in Minnesota, and he's a net negative player here in Chicago. The sooner he is off the team the better.

*edit Any front office that hands Zach a max contract is guaranteed to get fired.

In all of Bulls history, how many players were a more elite scorer than Lavine, and who are they?

I count 1. I don't think I have to name him.

Who are you going to find who can score at the level Lavine can, and don't you need 2 of those guys to truly compete?

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Orlando Woolridge?

And what part of "net negative player" don't you understand?

[XxMisterFreakXx]

Trade Lavine he doesn't deserve this get him to a good team ASAP and get what you can get.

[VolumePoster]

That opening night was the nail in the coffin for me. Was it aberrant? Sure. But we're never winning anything with the Lavine/Lauri/Carter core, and likely only scratching slightly above mediocre when the pieces fall into place.

Lavine is the most obvious talent we have. And a true talent at that. If he can bring a legitimate return, one which resets this rebuild with legitimate pieces, you do it. I would wonder if OKC, seething at the gills with picks, would consider packaging some of them for Lavine. We in turn might take on old man Horford and the Serbian sensation.

[bullsnewdynasty]

Given that this team is nowhere near competing for the playoffs let alone anything beyond that, I expect he'll be gone after his Bulls deal is over.

Best option is to trade him at his optimal value this season. Next season he will be a rental and will not return as much.

I'd be trying to look at Denver if they strike out on Harden and see if they'd be interested in a deal for LaVine with MPJ as the centerpiece.

[madvillian]

Trade him. It's obvious that you cant trot out a White Lavine back court. Sooner Bulls move on from that the better. I like Zach, I've come around on him, but his talents really do nothing on this Bulls team. He'd be a great 3rd banana on a contender. I wonder if the Clippers would have interest in him.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Better scorer than Zach in Bulls history (you need to count eras,rules,way of officiating games,skills not only stats) 1.Jordan 2.Pippen 3.Derrick Rose 4.Toni Kukoc 5.Jimmy Butler 6.Jamal Crawford/Lavine/B.Gordon. Lavine is not so great scorer because he cannot finish at rim at will, cannot finish at high rate through contact, best dunker who never dunk on somebody in actuall game to put pressure on the rim or to play above the rim, doesent have go to move to relay he is chuker, lives and dies with shooting, not having neck to earn fouls and free throws, no back to basket game (even today that is not so neccessary,but Kawhi buys some buckets that way). Tbh he is also as Coby more wired to be bench scoring punch not centerpiece of offense.

[Clocian]

I like zach but I'm leaning more and more towards trade. Before Pat, I wanted him to stay, but now we have someone else with the tools to be something special, and he's only 19. With the uncertainty of coby at the 1, I would probably move Zach for worthwhile (and only worthwhile) pieces that compliment Pat and Coby, then move Coby to the 2. Pretty much everyone else can go on this roster. Maybe keep Wendell if he goes to back to just focusing on defense and mid range shots.

???/Coby/Pat/???/Wendell(?)

We should revisit this before the deadline though cause things can change as it's only been 1 game

[TheFinishSniper]

Sounds weird and boring but if Bulls can find good pick package for 2021 draft assets I wouldnt mind dealing Zach. He is not problem and I feel we are almost repeating "trade Jimmy for assets to rebuild" mantra. But it's truth. Everything on roster is issue except rookie. It again takes us for another 3 or 4 years without putting good NBA team, but again there is no guarantee that we can do same with Zach on roster.

This team really need franchise player. I can't enough time repeat it. Zach is not that as much as I like him. We need real complete difference maker. A true winner. Catalyst to changing attitudes on court and practices. One who demands f perfection and no slacking. I can't say there is guy in 2021 draft, but I know there isnt such guy in league we can AQUIRE. So again we need to draft and continue draft and draft and draft till we get him. I am not advocating for tanking, but rebuild is necessary. But until then and sincere as I am I will say this.

I am not planning to watch Bulls basketball. I simply can't. I can't watch this guys trying to figure out how to play basketball. You either know how to play it or not. I can go through mistakes and experience but being bad at basketball I am not watching. For example Derrick Rose, inexperienced but knew how to play NBA basketball. Noah, same. Deng, same. Gordon, same.

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

Pretty substantial percentage (65 percent) to trade Zach Lavine

[Stratmaster]

Zach has never been a max worthy player, or even anything close to it. He was a net (heavily) negative player in Minnesota, and he's a net negative player here in Chicago. The sooner he is off the team the better.

*edit Any front office that hands Zach a max contract is guaranteed to get fired.

In all of Bulls history, how many players were a more elite scorer than Lavine, and who are they?

I count 1. I don't think I have to name him.

Who are you going to find who can score at the level Lavine can, and don't you need 2 of those guys to truly compete?

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Orlando Woolridge?

And what part of "net negative player" don't you understand?

Orlando Woolridge? That's funny.

When you actually have an answer and want a discussion, let me know.

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[Stratmaster]

Better scorer than Zach in Bulls history (you need to count eras,rules,way of officiating games,skills not only stats) 1.Jordan 2.Pippen 3.Derrick Rose 4.Toni Kukoc 5.Jimmy Butler 6.Jamal Crawford/Lavine/B.Gordon. Lavine is not so great scorer because he cannot finish at rim at will, cannot finish at high rate through contact, best dunker who never dunk on somebody in actuall game to put pressure on the rim or to play above the rim, doesent have go to move to relay he is chuker, lives and dies with shooting, not having neck to earn fouls and free throws, no back to basket game (even today that is not so neccessary,but Kawhi buys some buckets that way). Tbh he is also as Coby more wired to be bench scoring punch not centerpiece of offense.

Scoring wise Lavine is Rose with a real 3 point shot.

Pippen was an elite player, and while a great scorer he wasn't elite.

As far as the rest. They aren't even in the same league.

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[DroseReturnChi]

I was extremely impressed with Zach during the preseason. He was playing within the offense, taking good shots and moving the ball. On defense, he was being far more of a ball hawk than he has ever been. This was max contract type play.

Last night, he started out playing that way. Unfortunately, the offense bogged down because the team runs it so slowly and several people (Coby and Wendell) seem outright confused. The passes and angles weren't there. When the team started getting blown out, Zach reverted to hero ball and took selfish shots. His defense suffered.

Zach is going to look really good on a good team. The Bulls have to figure out if they are going to be able to create that situation before Lavine's contract is up. If not, they should probably trade him for everything they can get.

At this point, I feel legitimately bad for Zach.

Why base a max contract on preseason games? Preseason games means nothing if bad habits reappear in rs games.
Its clear who is the cornerstone from that 1 game sample size. Lavine, White, Carter does not belong to the Bulls period.
If AK thought handing 20 Lauri is risk, a max to Lavine will be unthinkable. He will get fired if he cannot explain the reasoning if he maxes Lavine.

[DroseReturnChi]

I like zach but I'm leaning more and more towards trade. Before Pat, I wanted him to stay, but now we have someone else with the tools to be something special, and he's only 19. With the uncertainty of coby at the 1, I would probably move Zach for worthwhile (and only worthwhile) pieces that compliment Pat and Coby, then move Coby to the 2. Pretty much everyone else can go on this roster. Maybe keep Wendell if he goes to back to just focusing on defense and mid range shots.

???/Coby/Pat/???/Wendell(?)

We should revisit this before the deadline though cause things can change as it's only been 1 game

Thats the beauty of tanking. The Bulls didnt even tank properly and already in yr 1 AKME they found a better player than "max" Zach in Kawhi Williams. The sad part is guys like Lavine, Collins are littered in the NBA only a handful deserve max.
Can you imagine how many players better than Butler AKME would have found if garpax was fired? I cannot count.

Keeping Lavine will keep the Bulls from becoming a 30 win team for a decade bc he is a better Mirotic forcing them to pick 7 every yr collecting garbage Whites, and Carter. Like it or not, the entire future is now building around Williams until they find a better player. Lavine, White are automatically disqualified bc they take away shots from him and should be eliminated.
Last game, Lauri and Williams were co-MVPs and yet they took the least shots. Why are Lavine, White ball hogging and jacking up shots?

[Mirotek]

I just wish the Bulls got to the playoffs with Zach so we can at least see what he's capable of first

[Clocian]

I like zach but I'm leaning more and more towards trade. Before Pat, I wanted him to stay, but now we have someone else with the tools to be something special, and he's only 19. With the uncertainty of coby at the 1, I would probably move Zach for worthwhile (and only worthwhile) pieces that compliment Pat and Coby, then move Coby to the 2. Pretty much everyone else can go on this roster. Maybe keep Wendell if he goes to back to just focusing on defense and mid range shots.

???/Coby/Pat/???/Wendell(?)

We should revisit this before the deadline though cause things can change as it's only been 1 game

Thats the beauty of tanking. The Bulls didnt even tank properly and already in yr 1 AKME they found a better player than "max" Zach in Kawhi Williams.
Can you imagine how many players better than Butler AKME would have found if garpax was fired? I cannot count.

Keeping Lavine will keep the Bulls from becoming a 30 win team for a decade bc he is a better Mirotic forcing them to pick 7 every yr collecting garbage Whites, and Carter.

It's not about trading zach because he's a "bad player" (he's not), or thinking that Pat is better is better than zach (again, he's not, at least not now), it's about realizing where the team is now and the direction it's going. Zach is on a different planet from the rest of the team, and as Coldfish pointed out, his "supporting cast" actually hurts him as a player because he has to carry so much on his back and goes back to handling the ball. If you don't think zach can do it, lauri sure as hell ain't doing, which is why I have a blank spot at PF on my post. He needs to be the first to go, because I get nightmares' thinking about Lauri being "the guy".

[dice]

Better scorer than Zach in Bulls history (you need to count eras,rules,way of officiating games,skills not only stats) 1.Jordan 2.Pippen 3.Derrick Rose 4.Toni Kukoc 5.Jimmy Butler 6.Jamal Crawford/Lavine/B.Gordon. Lavine is not so great scorer because he cannot finish at rim at will, cannot finish at high rate through contact, best dunker who never dunk on somebody in actuall game to put pressure on the rim or to play above the rim, doesent have go to move to relay he is chuker, lives and dies with shooting, not having neck to earn fouls and free throws, no back to basket game (even today that is not so neccessary,but Kawhi buys some buckets that way). Tbh he is also as Coby more wired to be bench scoring punch not centerpiece of offense.

Scoring wise Lavine is Rose with a real 3 point shot.

Pippen was an elite player, and while a great scorer he wasn't elite.

As far as the rest. They aren't even in the same league.

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jimmy butler was ABSOLUTELY as good a scorer as lavine...once he became a scorer

[Stratmaster]

Better scorer than Zach in Bulls history (you need to count eras,rules,way of officiating games,skills not only stats) 1.Jordan 2.Pippen 3.Derrick Rose 4.Toni Kukoc 5.Jimmy Butler 6.Jamal Crawford/Lavine/B.Gordon. Lavine is not so great scorer because he cannot finish at rim at will, cannot finish at high rate through contact, best dunker who never dunk on somebody in actuall game to put pressure on the rim or to play above the rim, doesent have go to move to relay he is chuker, lives and dies with shooting, not having neck to earn fouls and free throws, no back to basket game (even today that is not so neccessary,but Kawhi buys some buckets that way). Tbh he is also as Coby more wired to be bench scoring punch not centerpiece of offense.

Scoring wise Lavine is Rose with a real 3 point shot.

Pippen was an elite player, and while a great scorer he wasn't elite.

As far as the rest. They aren't even in the same league.

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jimmy butler was ABSOLUTELY as good a scorer as lavine...once he became a scorer

Not with the Bulls.

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[2018C3]

I think the team needs him too much right now. He is by far the most competent player on the roster. I can see why some people think its a good idea, but if you gut a team of talent it could be really hard to climb back out of the cellar and you could get stuck there for a decade.

If Coby becomes a consistent offensive threat, I would be more open in moving either of the two. I just don't think the time is now. If he is moved now, things could get supper ugly real fast.

With that being said, it all depends on the return even though I'd prefer he stays.

[dice]

Scoring wise Lavine is Rose with a real 3 point shot.

Pippen was an elite player, and while a great scorer he wasn't elite.

As far as the rest. They aren't even in the same league.

jimmy butler was ABSOLUTELY as good a scorer as lavine...once he became a scorer

Not with the Bulls.

huh? he hasn't gotten better as a scorer since he left the bulls. per 100 poss.:'

29.4p on 57.7% ts (3.5% over league average) - last 3 seasons w/ bulls
28.2p on 57.8% ts (1.8% over) - since

zach lavine as a bull (excluding first season):

34.3p on 57.1% (0.9% over)