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Assembling Core 2.0

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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#101 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:52 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
Come on, don't mock the guy who came forward with a solution-oriented suggestion. IMO the idea itself is right - let's acquire a true PG if we truly think White won't ever cut it. While a new PG wouldn't fix everything, it cannot be other than a point in the right direction. What are the odds of acquiring a PG, better than White, via draft? Pretty slim I'd say.

The odds of acquiring a PG better than White via the draft is like 85%+. There are a multiple late 1st round PGs selected this past draft that are better than Coby at running a team.

And the entire premise of this thread is that we need a new core. Trading for Lonzo Ball to get the most out of our existing core is the opposite approach.


What better PG's than Coby White have we drafted in the last 10 years?

I don't see any contradiction in needing a new core = trading for Lonzo Ball. He can be one of many in the new core.

The only "PG" we drafted in the last 10 years other than Coby was Marquis Teague in 2012. We haven't drafted any PGs really.

The contradiction in that post is in keeping Lauri/Lavine/Coby/WCJ as part of the "new" core. That's not a new core at all. It's the same bad core.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#102 » by FranchisePlayer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:57 pm

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:The odds of acquiring a PG better than White via the draft is like 85%+. There are a multiple late 1st round PGs selected this past draft that are better than Coby at running a team.

And the entire premise of this thread is that we need a new core. Trading for Lonzo Ball to get the most out of our existing core is the opposite approach.


What better PG's than Coby White have we drafted in the last 10 years?

I don't see any contradiction in needing a new core = trading for Lonzo Ball. He can be one of many in the new core.


If Lonzo Ball is part of your core, it's not a very good core at all.


Well, technically he wasn't a part of MY core. Feel free to suggest someone else. Though I don't know who could meet your criteria since to you Markkanen too isn't a good player. Setting the bar a bit too high, eh?
MeloRoseNoah wrote:Comparing Markkanen the Euro soft bum to Eddy Curry Shaq Jr is an understatement and a drastic overvaluation of this Euro bust.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#103 » by FranchisePlayer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:08 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:The odds of acquiring a PG better than White via the draft is like 85%+. There are a multiple late 1st round PGs selected this past draft that are better than Coby at running a team.

And the entire premise of this thread is that we need a new core. Trading for Lonzo Ball to get the most out of our existing core is the opposite approach.


What better PG's than Coby White have we drafted in the last 10 years?

I don't see any contradiction in needing a new core = trading for Lonzo Ball. He can be one of many in the new core.

The only "PG" we drafted in the last 10 years other than Coby was Marquis Teague in 2012. We haven't drafted any PGs really.

The contradiction in that post is in keeping Lauri/Lavine/Coby/WCJ as part of the "new" core. That's not a new core at all. It's the same bad core.


I know. That's why I said pretty slim. Why we haven't drafted then? Because it was a strategy not to draft PG's at all or all potentially good PG's weren't available?

Anyways, I call saying 85% chance of drafting better PG than White BS. It isn't that easy or it would've been done already, Teague as a 1st round pick played whopping 91 RS games. One would think even dopes like GarPax would've, for obvious reasons, set getting one as a goal years ago.

Well, to you that maybe a bad core but I obviously wouldn't trade all of them. And if I'd set that as a target... pretty tall order to make it work. I cannot see the new core as "either...or". I'd approach it with a step-by-step strategy. Just my two cents
MeloRoseNoah wrote:Comparing Markkanen the Euro soft bum to Eddy Curry Shaq Jr is an understatement and a drastic overvaluation of this Euro bust.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#104 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:43 pm

There are lot Nba near to starting level quality point guards that are young and in search of bigger oportunitty, we could aquire for lets say one of or combo of Sato,Hutch,Thad Young,Kornet and/or second round pick/s. Who would fitt Bulls needs let name a few higher upside Dejounte Murray,Kira Lewis,Aaron Holiday lower upside Jalen Brunson, Monte Morris,Ish Smith, or veterans via Porter trade like Rubio,G.Hill,Mills,Bledsoe,Beverly. I would love to see trade O.Porter Jr. and Thad Young for Beverly and Zubac.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#105 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:27 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
What better PG's than Coby White have we drafted in the last 10 years?

I don't see any contradiction in needing a new core = trading for Lonzo Ball. He can be one of many in the new core.


If Lonzo Ball is part of your core, it's not a very good core at all.


Well, technically he wasn't a part of MY core. Feel free to suggest someone else. Though I don't know who could meet your criteria since to you Markkanen too isn't a good player. Setting the bar a bit too high, eh?


There is nothing tangible to suggest Lauri is a good player.

He's as average as it gets.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#106 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:52 am

The Pelicans were 7-23 to start the year last year and just missed the playoffs. Everyone needs to settle down a bit and stop panicking over the current core. Coby is learning how to play a point guard, Wendell is learning how to be a playmaker and play drop coverage, Lauri is being aggressive on the offensive end, and Patrick Williams is starting. The results won’t be good in the beginning but after 30 games, we won’t recognize this team. Billy is developing the players we have, which is the reason he was brought here. RELAX.

The Eastern Conference got a lot better this year and the Bulls are basically the same team as last year. Let these guys develop, get another lottery pick, and let AK work some magic with all that cap space.

Sign Lonzo and Drummond.
Extend Lauri (if he continues his solid play)

Lonzo Ball / Coby White
Zach LaVine / Chandler Hutchison
Patrick Williams / 2021 1st
Lauri Markkanen / Patrick Williams
Andre Drummond / Wendell Carter Jr. / Daniel Gafford
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#107 » by MrSparkle » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:41 am

gobullschi wrote:The Pelicans were 7-23 to start the year last year and just missed the playoffs. Everyone needs to settle down a bit and stop panicking over the current core. Coby is learning how to play a point guard, Wendell is learning how to be a playmaker and play drop coverage, Lauri is being aggressive on the offensive end, and Patrick Williams is starting. The results won’t be good in the beginning but after 30 games, we won’t recognize this team. Billy is developing the players we have, which is the reason he was brought here. RELAX.

The Eastern Conference got a lot better this year and the Bulls are basically the same team as last year. Let these guys develop, get another lottery pick, and let AK work some magic with all that cap space.

Sign Lonzo and Drummond.
Extend Lauri (if he continues his solid play)

Lonzo Ball / Coby White
Zach LaVine / Chandler Hutchison
Patrick Williams / 2021 1st
Lauri Markkanen / Patrick Williams
Andre Drummond / Wendell Carter Jr. / Daniel Gafford


No thanks to Lonzo and Drummond.. but I agree that people need to relax. What was done by GarPax is done (with the draft selections and trades). The old core is obviously not high-ceiling, but they are also bad fits for each other, and coupled with their inexperience and career losing for 2 bad coaches, it's just made everyone look even worse than the potentially serviceable players they can be.

Guys just become much better at 25yo. That's a fact. Who the hell thought Kyle Anderson and Bertans would become very solid players? The Spurs sure as hell didn't.

The principle problem is that Wendell/Lauri/Coby are mid/late FRP talent. Hutch is 2nd rd caliber. And now 3-4y in with some of these guys, Artunas has to make tough decisions of which guy to pay, which guys to keep another year, which guys to trade for turds. You can't just flip the whole roster and come out on top. You know for all their struggles, Wendell and Lauri are about 1-2y from being fairly consistent "NBA veterans", so you're so deep into that process already... Do you just dump them all for crap?

Tyson Chandler was 1y away from stabilizing, and right as he hit his mid-20s, we decided to go for 1y of service out of Ben Wallace and PJ Brown, which had a ripple effect on the next disaster of a season.

With cap-space, with star FAs off the board, I think you have to explore the TJ Warren Suns type of trades. Hornets are gonna want to open the PG spot for LaMelo, so they might be very eager to let go of Rozier for cap. If you can get some asset tossed into that, it's better than signing Lonzo to an offer sheet.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#108 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:37 am

MrSparkle wrote:
gobullschi wrote:The Pelicans were 7-23 to start the year last year and just missed the playoffs. Everyone needs to settle down a bit and stop panicking over the current core. Coby is learning how to play a point guard, Wendell is learning how to be a playmaker and play drop coverage, Lauri is being aggressive on the offensive end, and Patrick Williams is starting. The results won’t be good in the beginning but after 30 games, we won’t recognize this team. Billy is developing the players we have, which is the reason he was brought here. RELAX.

The Eastern Conference got a lot better this year and the Bulls are basically the same team as last year. Let these guys develop, get another lottery pick, and let AK work some magic with all that cap space.

Sign Lonzo and Drummond.
Extend Lauri (if he continues his solid play)

Lonzo Ball / Coby White
Zach LaVine / Chandler Hutchison
Patrick Williams / 2021 1st
Lauri Markkanen / Patrick Williams
Andre Drummond / Wendell Carter Jr. / Daniel Gafford


No thanks to Lonzo and Drummond.. but I agree that people need to relax. What was done by GarPax is done (with the draft selections and trades). The old core is obviously not high-ceiling, but they are also bad fits for each other, and coupled with their inexperience and career losing for 2 bad coaches, it's just made everyone look even worse than the potentially serviceable players they can be.

Guys just become much better at 25yo. That's a fact. Who the hell thought Kyle Anderson and Bertans would become very solid players? The Spurs sure as hell didn't.

The principle problem is that Wendell/Lauri/Coby are mid/late FRP talent. Hutch is 2nd rd caliber. And now 3-4y in with some of these guys, Artunas has to make tough decisions of which guy to pay, which guys to keep another year, which guys to trade for turds. You can't just flip the whole roster and come out on top. You know for all their struggles, Wendell and Lauri are about 1-2y from being fairly consistent "NBA veterans", so you're so deep into that process already... Do you just dump them all for crap?

Tyson Chandler was 1y away from stabilizing, and right as he hit his mid-20s, we decided to go for 1y of service out of Ben Wallace and PJ Brown, which had a ripple effect on the next disaster of a season.

With cap-space, with star FAs off the board, I think you have to explore the TJ Warren Suns type of trades. Hornets are gonna want to open the PG spot for LaMelo, so they might be very eager to let go of Rozier for cap. If you can get some asset tossed into that, it's better than signing Lonzo to an offer sheet.


The Bulls need to take a gamble on some players that have upside and Lonzo Ball and Andre Drummond are definitely two players to monitor closely this season.

Andre Drummond is averaging 20PPG - 15RPG - 4APG. He solves the Bull's problem rebounding the basketball and has the size to match up against guys like Embiid, Ayton, Jokic, etc. Lauri Markkanen can shift to center when teams go small. Plus, he has had some decent assist numbers throughout the years. Billy Donovan might be able to untap more of his potential.

Lonzo Ball is the exact point guard that the Bulls need right now - a playmaker and defender. You said it yourself, guys just become much better at 25 (Lonzo is only 23). He completely transformed his shooting stroke and it looks significantly better. Very curious to see the results. Besides, it's going to take a while for Coby to learn how to play point guard. Why not let him lead the 2nd unit until then?

Atlanta signed guys like Gallinari, Bogdanović, & Rondo to help make a playoff push. I think AK is playing his cards right. Develop the current talent on the roster, get a decent draft pick in a stacked draft class, and then make some big plays in free agency. I like Ball + Drummond more than Gallinari and Bogdanović.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#110 » by Chi town » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:21 am

I like a Lonzo THT summer. Both guys showing consistent improvement.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#111 » by Little Nathan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:11 am

gobullschi wrote:Atlanta signed guys like Gallinari, Bogdanović, & Rondo to help make a playoff push. I think AK is playing his cards right. Develop the current talent on the roster, get a decent draft pick in a stacked draft class, and then make some big plays in free agency. I like Ball + Drummond more than Gallinari and Bogdanović.


The Hawks are in a completely different situation because they have Trae. We have nobody close to that level in that role. Signing 28-year-old Andre Drummond with no high level lead ballhandler on the team is just a terrible plan IMO, especially because of the contract it is going to take.

I‘d definitely take Gallo/Bogdanovic at their deals over Drummond/Ball at what they will likely get too. The Pelicans have no reason not to match unless you offer crazy money to Lonzo.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#112 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:06 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Atlanta signed guys like Gallinari, Bogdanović, & Rondo to help make a playoff push. I think AK is playing his cards right. Develop the current talent on the roster, get a decent draft pick in a stacked draft class, and then make some big plays in free agency. I like Ball + Drummond more than Gallinari and Bogdanović.


The Hawks are in a completely different situation because they have Trae. We have nobody close to that level in that role. Signing 28-year-old Andre Drummond with no high level lead ballhandler on the team is just a terrible plan IMO, especially because of the contract it is going to take.

I‘d definitely take Gallo/Bogdanovic at their deals over Drummond/Ball at what they will likely get too. The Pelicans have no reason not to match unless you offer crazy money to Lonzo.


Disagree. The Hawks and Bulls are very similar. Both teams have an elite offensive player that struggles defensively. The rest of the team is very similar but I think the Bulls would be more talented.

Markkanen < Collins

Drummond > Capella

Patrick Williams > DeAndre Hunter

Lonzo > Reddish

Young < Gallinari

WCJ = Onyeka

Hutchison < Huerter

Coby > Dunn

Gafford = Bruno
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#113 » by Little Nathan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:11 pm

gobullschi wrote:Both teams have an elite offensive player that struggles defensively.


Yeah, this is where we can stop this discussion. Putting Trae and LaVine (?) in the same category is ridiculous stuff.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#114 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:13 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Both teams have an elite offensive player that struggles defensively.


Yeah, this is where we can stop this discussion. Putting Trae and LaVine (?) in the same category is ridiculous stuff.


It’s not ridiculous. We complain about LaVine on defense, but Trae Young is arguably the worst defensive player in the NBA. You said the Hawks are in a completely different situation, yet they had a worse record than the Bulls last season and didn’t have nearly the amount of injuries that plagued the Bulls. Does Trae Young get a “pass” for only leading his team to 20 wins?
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#115 » by Chi town » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:37 pm

WCJ for Culver

OPJ for Nesmith

Sign Lonzo and Theis

Resign Lauri

Draft BPA

See something similar to this. Obviously if we hit it big in draft everything changes. Ball and Theis fit this team really well. Culver is off to a great start and he looks much improved as a two way playmaker. Lonzo compliments Coby and Lavine really well, moved the ball, and can really defend and pass.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#116 » by Little Nathan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:08 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Both teams have an elite offensive player that struggles defensively.


Yeah, this is where we can stop this discussion. Putting Trae and LaVine (?) in the same category is ridiculous stuff.


It’s not ridiculous. We complain about LaVine on defense, but Trae Young is arguably the worst defensive player in the NBA. You said the Hawks are in a completely different situation, yet they had a worse record than the Bulls last season and didn’t have nearly the amount of injuries that plagued the Bulls. Does Trae Young get a “pass” for only leading his team to 20 wins?


It‘s absolutely ridiculous. Sure, let‘s put LaVine on one level with a guy who averaged 29 and 9 on almost 60% TS in his second season and is much better in every aspect on offense. Let‘s do that.

Young doesn‘t need a pass for the terrible year the Hawks had last season. The Hawks, as horrible as they were, were an okay team with him on the floor. They just got completely crushed when he was off. If anything that season showed his value (again, in his second season).
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#117 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:52 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
Yeah, this is where we can stop this discussion. Putting Trae and LaVine (?) in the same category is ridiculous stuff.


It’s not ridiculous. We complain about LaVine on defense, but Trae Young is arguably the worst defensive player in the NBA. You said the Hawks are in a completely different situation, yet they had a worse record than the Bulls last season and didn’t have nearly the amount of injuries that plagued the Bulls. Does Trae Young get a “pass” for only leading his team to 20 wins?


It‘s absolutely ridiculous. Sure, let‘s put LaVine on one level with a guy who averaged 29 and 9 on almost 60% TS in his second season and is much better in every aspect on offense. Let‘s do that.

Young doesn‘t need a pass for the terrible year the Hawks had last season. The Hawks, as horrible as they were, were an okay team with him on the floor. They just got completely crushed when he was off. If anything that season showed his value (again, in his second season).


LaVine gets criticized for not carrying his team to the playoffs, so Young should get the same criticism, or more, because he had a better supporting cast and won less games. I think the gap between the two isn’t nearly as large as your making it, which is fine.

Gilbert Arenas and Kevin Durant both have said they think LaVine will be a super-star, so I feel comfortable with my evaluation. That isn’t a slight against Trae Young, who is a great young player too. If anything, it just confirms that it takes more than one great young player to carry a team to the playoffs.

I think Drummond and Lonzo are definitely two players to monitor because of their upside and fit. We got a whole season to evaluate this option, but right now, it’s the best/most realistic one I can think of that isn’t completely tearing the team apart.

Also, I feel safe targeting Lonzo Ball (if his new shooting form equates to results) because he’s a guy that sells tickets. If he doesn’t work out in Chicago, he wouldn’t be difficult to move.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#118 » by Little Nathan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:04 pm

gobullschi wrote:LaVine gets criticized for not carrying his team to the playoffs, so Young should get the same criticism, or more, because he had a better supporting cast and won less games.


1. It‘s stupid to blame either player for how bad his team was. Let‘s just not do that.

2. Trae‘s supporting cast was definitely worse last season. They had one other NBA level contributor and he missed half of the games.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#119 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:42 pm

I like Zach, but my feeling is he would be traded to Philly at trade dead line. I am ok with that, because i believe team will be better without him in terms of everybody involve in offence and more wins, and he will get his playoffs experience and more recognition in adjusted role as third option or second in close games.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#120 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:54 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:LaVine gets criticized for not carrying his team to the playoffs, so Young should get the same criticism, or more, because he had a better supporting cast and won less games.


1. It‘s stupid to blame either player for how bad his team was. Let‘s just not do that.

2. Trae‘s supporting cast was definitely worse last season. They had one other NBA level contributor and he missed half of the games.


Disregard the entire post because you view Trae Young as a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than LaVine, which according to his team’s performance, completely contradicts your point. Let’s ignore that. Makes sense.

Let’s not pretend that the Bulls weren’t hampered by injuries. The Bulls were down 3 starters (4 if you include Dunn) and their depth (Hutchison, Valentine) were also out.

Disputing how similarly situated both Atlanta and Chicago are is ridiculous. Atlanta is just one year ahead in the rebuild process because Chicago doesn’t get cap space until next year. Atlanta signed the best talent they could, hopefully AK can do better. Refusing the “idea” to monitor two upcoming free agents as possible additions is pure stubbornness.

I suspect your in the camp to “tank” and tear it all down, which is an outdated method now that they changed the lottery odds. Am I wrong? What’s your better idea?

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