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Assembling Core 2.0

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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#121 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:57 pm

I can't believe someone is arguing this after we played the Hawks a week ago lol
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#122 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:17 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:I can't believe someone is arguing this after we played the Hawks a week ago lol


I can’t believe someone is using a one game sample size when the Bulls have a new offensive and defensive system and LaVine was in foul trouble.

:banghead:
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#123 » by gobullschi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:36 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:I can't believe someone is arguing this after we played the Hawks a week ago lol


Instead, let’s review 2019 for more context:

January 23, 2019
Zach LaVine: 23 pts, 4 reb, 4 assists, 2 steals (Bulls lose )
Trae Young: 5 pts, 7 reb, 12 assists, 1 steal (Hawks win)

March 1, 2019
Zach LaVine: 47 pts, 9 reb, 9 assists, 2 steals (Bulls win)
Trae Young: 49 pts, 8 reb, 16 assists, 1 steal (Hawks lose)

November 16, 2019
Zach LaVine: 10 pts, 8 reb, 4 assists, 2 steals (Bulls win)
Trae Young: 9 pts, 3 reb, 3 assists, 0 steals (Hawks lose)

December 11, 2019
Zach LaVine: 35 pts, 2 reb, 4 assists, 1 steal (Bulls win)
Trae Young: 15 pts, 2 reb, 13 assists, 2 steals (Hawks lose)
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#124 » by Little Nathan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:19 am

TheSuzerain wrote:I can't believe someone is arguing this after we played the Hawks a week ago lol


It‘s hilarious at this point. But a good friend said Zach can be a superstar, so it has to be true.
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Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#125 » by Little Nathan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:27 am

gobullschi wrote:Disregard the entire post because you view Trae Young as a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than LaVine, which according to his team’s performance, completely contradicts your point. Let’s ignore that. Makes sense.


Again, it helps my point. The Hawks fringe NBA guys were not bad with Trae on the floor, which is quite amazing when you look at that team. But sure, let's not look at impact. And while we‘re at it, let‘s not look at who is the better scorer and in a completely different universe as a playmaker.

I'm out, clearly wasting my time here.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#126 » by Axolotl » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:16 pm

I would take Trae Young over Zach LaVine without a second thought ten times out of ten all day every day. I like LaVine, warts and all, but Trae is someone you build around while Zach is a weapon you aquire for a specific task.

The Bulls have no core. There are some complimentary pieces in LaVine, Markkanen, Porter, White, but no core.

Patrick Williams may become a core piece, but how likely is that really?
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#127 » by gobullschi » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:43 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Disregard the entire post because you view Trae Young as a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than LaVine, which according to his team’s performance, completely contradicts your point. Let’s ignore that. Makes sense.


Again, it helps my point. The Hawks fringe NBA guys were not bad with Trae on the floor, which is quite amazing when you look at that team. But sure, let's not look at impact. And while we‘re at it, let‘s not look at who is the better scorer and in a completely different universe as a playmaker.

I'm out, clearly wasting my time here.


I never said Zach LaVine was ‘better’ than Trae Young. I said both players were elite offensive players that were poor defenders. I was also pointing out that Atlanta and Chicago are in similar positions of the roster building process, except Atlanta is one year ahead of Chicago.

If the ‘gap’ of talent of LaVine and Young was as significant as you suggest, Atlanta would have won more than 20 games. You’re argument that Atlanta had a worse supporting cast is weak. Collins is better than Markkanen (both missed extensive time last season) and Capella is better than WCJ (both missed extensive time last season) So who on Chicago made their supporting cast so much better than Atlanta, that makes this point ‘ridiculous’?
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#128 » by ZOMG » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:30 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Disregard the entire post because you view Trae Young as a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than LaVine, which according to his team’s performance, completely contradicts your point. Let’s ignore that. Makes sense.


Again, it helps my point. The Hawks fringe NBA guys were not bad with Trae on the floor, which is quite amazing when you look at that team. But sure, let's not look at impact. And while we‘re at it, let‘s not look at who is the better scorer and in a completely different universe as a playmaker.

I'm out, clearly wasting my time here.


I never said Zach LaVine was ‘better’ than Trae Young. I said both players were elite offensive players that were poor defenders. I was also pointing out that Atlanta and Chicago are in similar positions of the roster building process, except Atlanta is one year ahead of Chicago.

If the ‘gap’ of talent of LaVine and Young was as significant as you suggest, Atlanta would have won more than 20 games. You’re argument that Atlanta had a worse supporting cast is weak. Collins is better than Markkanen (both missed extensive time last season) and Capella is better than WCJ (both missed extensive time last season) So who on Chicago made their supporting cast so much better than Atlanta, that makes this point ‘ridiculous’?


Saying Trae and Zach are both "elite offensive players" is an incredible simplification. One of them makes his whole team better, while the other is the definition of an empty stats guy. That matters.

Every team in the League would like to get their hands on Trae. Zach is seen as a complementary piece, a bench scorer on a contender.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#129 » by gobullschi » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:41 pm

ZOMG wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
Again, it helps my point. The Hawks fringe NBA guys were not bad with Trae on the floor, which is quite amazing when you look at that team. But sure, let's not look at impact. And while we‘re at it, let‘s not look at who is the better scorer and in a completely different universe as a playmaker.

I'm out, clearly wasting my time here.


I never said Zach LaVine was ‘better’ than Trae Young. I said both players were elite offensive players that were poor defenders. I was also pointing out that Atlanta and Chicago are in similar positions of the roster building process, except Atlanta is one year ahead of Chicago.

If the ‘gap’ of talent of LaVine and Young was as significant as you suggest, Atlanta would have won more than 20 games. You’re argument that Atlanta had a worse supporting cast is weak. Collins is better than Markkanen (both missed extensive time last season) and Capella is better than WCJ (both missed extensive time last season) So who on Chicago made their supporting cast so much better than Atlanta, that makes this point ‘ridiculous’?


Saying Trae and Zach are both "elite offensive players" is an incredible simplification. One of them makes his whole team better, while the other is the definition of an empty stats guy. That matters.

Every team in the League would like to get their hands on Trae. Zach is seen as a complementary piece, a bench scorer on a contender.


To who? You?

You can have your opinion based on whatever experience you have and I can have mine. As I stated before, I don’t feel uncomfortable on this island (I’m not the only one) when actual NBA super stars have gone on record saying they think LaVine will be a super star. We’ve also heard Billy Donovan and AK say Zach is an elite offensive player (always emphasizing ‘offense’ since defense is an issue) It matches what I see. You clearly have a different opinion but that doesn’t make you any more ‘right’ than it does for me.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#130 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:52 pm

Let's check in on the 2 FA's I highlighted in the OP:

Terence Davis

Bizarrely absent from the Raptors rotation in their first games. They have since stopped the nonsense and and have been playing him. He has played very well, scoring 20 points per 36 minutes on 60% TS%. Has the best +/- and On/Off on the team. He should definitely still be a target for us in the offseason.

THT

He's been very productive in his minutes and he consistently makes splash plays defensively. Per 36 stats:

17 points on 58.5 TS%, 5.5 boards, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1.3 blocks, 1.7 TOs

That is immensely impressive at 20 years old, playing next to LeBron/AD/Harrell who soak up a lot of usage.

I remind you all again that THT is less than a year older than Jalen Suggs and Cade Cunningham, and he's already doing the above. He is absolutely a worthy investment at 4 years, $85 million. There is star upside here, and we should be happy to pay for it.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#131 » by Little Nathan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:03 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Terence Davis

Bizarrely absent from the Raptors rotation in their first games. They have since stopped the nonsense and and have been playing him. He has played very well, scoring 20 points per 36 minutes on 60% TS%. Has the best +/- and On/Off on the team. He should definitely still be a target for us in the offseason.


Do you know anything about his legal issues? The things he was accused of a couple of months ago were pretty disgusting, anything new on that? Genuinely asking because I haven't heard anything since he was arrested in October(?).
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#132 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:07 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Terence Davis

Bizarrely absent from the Raptors rotation in their first games. They have since stopped the nonsense and and have been playing him. He has played very well, scoring 20 points per 36 minutes on 60% TS%. Has the best +/- and On/Off on the team. He should definitely still be a target for us in the offseason.


Do you know anything about his legal issues? The things he was accused of a couple of months ago were pretty disgusting, anything new on that? Genuinely asking because I haven't heard anything since he was arrested in October(?).

I've seen no updates other than TD trying to get the charges dismissed. Feels like something likely settled out of court.

But it's definitely a concern, and you'd certainly want to vet the guy to confirm this behavior isn't a pattern.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#133 » by meekrab » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:09 pm

So, are we willing to give BD more than a month with the team before we throw the whole roster in the trade bin yet?
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#134 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:19 pm

meekrab wrote:So, are we willing to give BD more than a month with the team before we throw the whole roster in the trade bin yet?

Coaches don't magically make guys more talented. Honestly, the most impactful coach from a W/L perspective in the modern NBA is probably Tom Thibodeau. We had strong talent on the roster (50 win level talent at our peak with Rose), but due to Thibs we were winning 60+ games at our peak, and he had us winning 45+ games even without Rose when our talent was pretty mediocre before Butler's ascent.

I really do reject the notion that BD's ability to wring some water out of this stone should change our position on the core. This isn't college basketball where it's a coach's league. It's the NBA, and the playoffs are a crucible where talent wins out.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#135 » by gobullschi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:04 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Let's check in on the 2 FA's I highlighted in the OP:

Terence Davis

Bizarrely absent from the Raptors rotation in their first games. They have since stopped the nonsense and and have been playing him. He has played very well, scoring 20 points per 36 minutes on 60% TS%. Has the best +/- and On/Off on the team. He should definitely still be a target for us in the offseason.

THT

He's been very productive in his minutes and he consistently makes splash plays defensively. Per 36 stats:

17 points on 58.5 TS%, 5.5 boards, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1.3 blocks, 1.7 TOs

That is immensely impressive at 20 years old, playing next to LeBron/AD/Harrell who soak up a lot of usage.

I remind you all again that THT is less than a year older than Jalen Suggs and Cade Cunningham, and he's already doing the above. He is absolutely a worthy investment at 4 years, $85 million. There is star upside here, and we should be happy to pay for it.


AK and Eversley are trying to rebuild the Chicago Bulls ‘brand’. Adding a player that has been charged with assault, harassment, and endangering the welfare of a child is NOT the type of player they’ll target. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

THT is an interesting player to monitor. A Chicago guy. I’ve only seen him play once - what specifically do you like about his game?

I know there are a lot of questions about what position he plays... Is he a 6’4” power forward?

He doesn’t look to have the lateral quickness to stay in front of guards, so he will have to compete with Patrick Williams for the SF/PF role. Does he want to come off the bench? What kind of contract do you give a guy like him? I guess he has a whole season to answer some of these questions.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#136 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:24 pm

gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Let's check in on the 2 FA's I highlighted in the OP:

Terence Davis

Bizarrely absent from the Raptors rotation in their first games. They have since stopped the nonsense and and have been playing him. He has played very well, scoring 20 points per 36 minutes on 60% TS%. Has the best +/- and On/Off on the team. He should definitely still be a target for us in the offseason.

THT

He's been very productive in his minutes and he consistently makes splash plays defensively. Per 36 stats:

17 points on 58.5 TS%, 5.5 boards, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1.3 blocks, 1.7 TOs

That is immensely impressive at 20 years old, playing next to LeBron/AD/Harrell who soak up a lot of usage.

I remind you all again that THT is less than a year older than Jalen Suggs and Cade Cunningham, and he's already doing the above. He is absolutely a worthy investment at 4 years, $85 million. There is star upside here, and we should be happy to pay for it.


AK and Eversley are trying to rebuild the Chicago Bulls ‘brand’. Adding a player that has been charged with assault, harassment, and endangering the welfare of a child is NOT the type of player they’ll target. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

THT is an interesting player to monitor. A Chicago guy. I’ve only seen him play once - what specifically do you like about his game?

I know there are a lot of questions about what position he plays... Is he a 6’4” power forward?

He doesn’t look to have the lateral quickness to stay in front of guards, so he will have to compete with Patrick Williams for the SF/PF role. Does he want to come off the bench? What kind of contract do you give a guy like him? I guess he has a whole season to answer some of these questions.

I'll leave the off-the-court evaluation to the Bulls. But from a basketball perspective, I do think TD is a hidden gem.

THT has a Draymond type build which lends itself to defensive versatility. I do agree he's more of a 3/4, but you can get away with playing him at the 2 it seems in some match-ups.

Most intriguing to me with THT is his on-ball ability where he attacks to create. It's genuinely difficult to keep him away from the cup. When teams put small guys on him, THT has been able to slash with ease. He's also showed some solid playmaking/passing with his touches, so it's easy to project him playing within a team concept. Simply put, he is a 20-year old multi-talented forward who doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

We would have to make an aggressive offer to nab him. Somewhere in region of 4 years, $85 million.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#137 » by StunnerKO » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:35 pm

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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#138 » by gobullschi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:38 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:[
I'll leave the off-the-court evaluation to the Bulls. But from a basketball perspective, I do think TD is a hidden gem.

THT has a Draymond type build which lends itself to defensive versatility. I do agree he's more of a 3/4, but you can get away with playing him at the 2 it seems in some match-ups.

Most intriguing to me with THT is his on-ball ability where he attacks to create. It's genuinely difficult to keep him away from the cup. When teams put small guys on him, THT has been able to slash with ease. He's also showed some solid playmaking/passing with his touches, so it's easy to project him playing within a team concept. Simply put, he is a 20-year old multi-talented forward who doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

We would have to make an aggressive offer to nab him. Somewhere in region of 4 years, $85 million.


:o

Imagine getting 85 million for averaging 8 points in the NBA. I’ll need to do more homework on this guy because that seems insane.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#139 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:28 am

gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:[
I'll leave the off-the-court evaluation to the Bulls. But from a basketball perspective, I do think TD is a hidden gem.

THT has a Draymond type build which lends itself to defensive versatility. I do agree he's more of a 3/4, but you can get away with playing him at the 2 it seems in some match-ups.

Most intriguing to me with THT is his on-ball ability where he attacks to create. It's genuinely difficult to keep him away from the cup. When teams put small guys on him, THT has been able to slash with ease. He's also showed some solid playmaking/passing with his touches, so it's easy to project him playing within a team concept. Simply put, he is a 20-year old multi-talented forward who doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

We would have to make an aggressive offer to nab him. Somewhere in region of 4 years, $85 million.


:o

Imagine getting 85 million for averaging 8 points in the NBA. I’ll need to do more homework on this guy because that seems insane.

I think the easiest way to think of it is as follows:

Would you eat bad Andrew Wiggins contract if it landed us another top 5 pick? If so, that's basically the same exchange as I'm proposing for THT. $85 million for a top 5 pick talent.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#140 » by WindyCityBorn » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:56 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:[
I'll leave the off-the-court evaluation to the Bulls. But from a basketball perspective, I do think TD is a hidden gem.

THT has a Draymond type build which lends itself to defensive versatility. I do agree he's more of a 3/4, but you can get away with playing him at the 2 it seems in some match-ups.

Most intriguing to me with THT is his on-ball ability where he attacks to create. It's genuinely difficult to keep him away from the cup. When teams put small guys on him, THT has been able to slash with ease. He's also showed some solid playmaking/passing with his touches, so it's easy to project him playing within a team concept. Simply put, he is a 20-year old multi-talented forward who doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

We would have to make an aggressive offer to nab him. Somewhere in region of 4 years, $85 million.


:o

Imagine getting 85 million for averaging 8 points in the NBA. I’ll need to do more homework on this guy because that seems insane.

I think the easiest way to think of it is as follows:

Would you eat bad Andrew Wiggins contract if it landed us another top 5 pick? If so, that's basically the same exchange as I'm proposing for THT. $85 million for a top 5 pick talent.


No I’m not swapping LaVine for Wiggins to get a top 5 pick.

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