Assembling Core 2.0

[Southpaw]

I like the premise of the OP to reset the core and tank for '21 and '22 while targeting underutilized young players still with upside but paying that much for THT is a no go for me. The Spurs could be a good team to watch because they have a bunch of young guards/wings that would need minutes in Murray/White/Walker/Vassel. I also think we'd need to sign more vets a la Temple, who are fairly cheap but can still play because it's clear that having too much youth is bad for player development. We need vets who can show them the ropes.

It is a lot of money. But we truly don't have many useful ways to invest our cap room right now, so the price tag shouldn't hurt as much.

I really think you can acquire good vets for the veteran's minimum contract which is $2.5 million for experienced vets. There are plenty of guys who have good intangibles and play the right way that you can snag at that price.

Just this past off-season, all of the following players signed for the Vet Min:

- Nic Batum
- Jared Dudley
- Delly
- Raul neto
- Torrey Craig

I'd look to take on bad contracts for young players/picks. Taking on Wiggins to take on Wiseman/Minny pick for example. Or Taking on Tobias Harris for Thybulle and future picks. Maybe even John Wall if the Rockets would attach assets to it.
I'm not against the idea, I just would like to see more of THT before I'd be comfortable to commit that huge a contract for him.

As for vet min signings, totally agree. There are solid vets out there that can be had for cheap that can provide some stability in the locker room. We apparently got 1 in Temple, Vonleh is another good one if we didn't waive him.

[Threekola]

Not saying I have an excellent track record of being correct, but I normally have a pretty strong feel what the team should do. Now, not so sure.

I think Lauri will be a fringe all-star for quite a while and fits into what the league is now if he can be consistent with his shot. Patrick Williams has some potential. Zach is a good piece but not good enough to lead. Carter right now is absolutely dreadful, and Coby seems like a sixth man type. I'd be inclined to keep Lauri, Williams, and Zach and build around them, but the problem is, outside of hitting in the draft, how do we get a star that those guys can play off of? And if we rely solely on the draft, we get even younger, and we are already insanely young.

[PlayerUp]

I'd be inclined to keep Zach and build around them

Lavine will walk in 18 months unless you give him a ridiculous contract. No reason he'll stay on this team taking a paycut. Only way we keep him is if we overpay.

[DroseReturnChi]

I've generally had this plan all off-season.
1: Offer Zach a max extension (adds 3/75 onto his deal) if he says no, trade him immediately for the most you can get. Either the Bulls didn't offer or Zach said no. So trade LaVine for as much as you can get now.

Thats not even a max. And why would he ever sign that when he could get 5/190 soon? I would fire the agent if he did that.
If your not willing to give contract, trade him asap. For Lauri, you need to sign him to 4/80 to trade him as well.
Walking these guys are worst case scenario when you invested yrs into them.

[nitetrain8603]

Excuse me, you want to give THT 90 mil? Nope. Not on the plan that gives him even half of that.

This is a more impressive performance than anything Coby, Lauri, or Wendell have ever shown. Yes it's preseason, but much of it was against the Clippers starters.

Watch on YouTube

He had a string of strong performances this pre-season. And he's the exact player-type that everyone wants. Versatile, multi-talented wing.

Of course there is risk, but it's the type of bold move we need to be making if we're going to turn this around. Risk = Upside

It's an awful risk. At best, he lives up to a 90 mil contract. You are basing his contract off of preseason performances. The downside, he doesn't live up to a contract he should've never received in his life and you screwed your cap for the next few years because he will be as untradeable as they come.

[TheSuzerain]

Excuse me, you want to give THT 90 mil? Nope. Not on the plan that gives him even half of that.

This is a more impressive performance than anything Coby, Lauri, or Wendell have ever shown. Yes it's preseason, but much of it was against the Clippers starters.

Watch on YouTube

He had a string of strong performances this pre-season. And he's the exact player-type that everyone wants. Versatile, multi-talented wing.

Of course there is risk, but it's the type of bold move we need to be making if we're going to turn this around. Risk = Upside

It's an awful risk. At best, he lives up to a 90 mil contract. You are basing his contract off of preseason performances. The downside, he doesn't live up to a contract he should've never received in his life and you screwed your cap for the next few years because he will be as untradeable as they come.

Our cap is basically meaningless the next few years if we really are starting over.

The upside of THT hitting his ceiling is much higher than you indicate. He's a wing. Talented wings are gold. You know how all bigs get devalued because they are bigs? For wings it's the opposite.

The entire point of rebuilding is pursuit of upside. We want as many swings at landing high upside players as we can get, even if it costs cap dollars. It's very rare that you can actually land a very young player with upside via free agency given how player control is structured. THT is a rare scenario where it can be done.

[Dresden]

We can never compete with other teams until we change the way we're doing things. Gar/Pax completely drove this team into the ground and caused irreparable damage to this organization. Every single aspect of how they were running this team top to bottom was so poorly done. Only way to move forward is do a complete rebuild top to bottom. If AKME don't see that, they should see that in the next 10-30 games as we sit at the bottom of the NBA and more frustration builds up. Get whatever value you can back and lets move forward. I'm perfectly fine doing a complete rebuild. It's better than watching a team stuck in basketball hell.

Yes, yes, yes. You have to realize that if you don't have at least that one superstar level player on your roster, it's a waste of time continuing to just let guys develop. PHO has Booker, MEM has Ja, NO has Zion, ATL has Trae, DAL has Luka, PHI has Embiid, MIN now possibly has one in Edwards, plus Towns, UT has Mitchell. At least you need a couple guys that will be all-stars in the near future, and who are still young enough to be good for awhile.

Other teams like us, CHA, DET, CLE, SAC, WAS, ORL- we're never going to get out of the lottery until we latch onto that kind of player. And the only realistic way to get that is through the draft. No quality FA is going to chose one of these teams to go to, unless they can show they have at least some promising young players. Like I could see PHO attracting a Tier 1 guy now that they have Booker and Ayton. Or MEM. Or maybe even ATL. But not teams like us. Just don't see that happening.

[nitetrain8603]

This is a more impressive performance than anything Coby, Lauri, or Wendell have ever shown. Yes it's preseason, but much of it was against the Clippers starters.

Watch on YouTube

He had a string of strong performances this pre-season. And he's the exact player-type that everyone wants. Versatile, multi-talented wing.

Of course there is risk, but it's the type of bold move we need to be making if we're going to turn this around. Risk = Upside

It's an awful risk. At best, he lives up to a 90 mil contract. You are basing his contract off of preseason performances. The downside, he doesn't live up to a contract he should've never received in his life and you screwed your cap for the next few years because he will be as untradeable as they come.

Our cap is basically meaningless the next few years if we really are starting over.

The upside of THT hitting his ceiling is much higher than you indicate. He's a wing. Talented wings are gold. You know how all bigs get devalued because they are bigs? For wings it's the opposite.

The entire point of rebuilding is pursuit of upside. We want as many swings at landing high upside players as we can get, even if it costs cap dollars. It's very rare that you can actually land a very young player with upside via free agency given how player control is structured. THT is a rare scenario where it can be done.

You give that type of money to people who have at least shown flashes in games that mean something. LaVine has shown that. A guy like Michael Porter Jr.

This guy was drafted in the mid 2nd round for a reason. Denzel Valentine was a summer league MVP - do you know how much worse the Bulls would be extending a contract based off of that? How about Josh Selby or Anthony Randolph. Like c'mon now.

And I thought we said no more Iowa State or New Mexico players/coaches/etc.

[dougthonus]

Thats not even a max. And why would he ever sign that when he could get 5/190 soon? I would fire the agent if he did that.
If your not willing to give contract, trade him asap.

It is a max extension. The max extension is based on your previous contract, not the maximum salary, you can only go up a percentage raise, this is the most we could offer Zach in an extension.

I agree Zach probably wouldn't take it, which is why I said I would offer it, and if he says yes then I'd give it to him and if he says no then I'd trade him, because once he's a UFA he probably won't stay here, and if he does it will be at a price we won't want to pay, so get something of value now.

In essence though, I'm agreeing with you. I wouldn't give Zach a max deal, so trade him now.

For Lauri, you need to sign him to 4/80 to trade him as well.

Not sure if you meant sign him to that deal OR trade him rather than TO trade him, but it doesn't matter now, because we can't extend him anymore.

Walking these guys are worst case scenario when you invested yrs into them.

I don't think it's quite so bad as people think. You probably aren't going to get massive value for either of them anyway, so what you lose is the 10 cents to 25 cents on the dollar you get back in trade, but you still might as well take 35 cents on two dollars than zero if you aren't going to keep them.

[ChettheJet]

I want to go 10 games with the lineup Donovan has been using, more or less maybe adding Young to the mix when healthy. If it's still not working after 10 games change the lineup

Valentine Porter
Markkanen Young
Carter Gafford
Lavine Temple
Satoransky White

and let the others watch for 10 games, gradually move Wiliams back in
I would like to see White and Temple play together for a while
maybe Markkanen with the second unit but no more thinking he's a center, go small with Kornet if you have to

[nitetrain8603]

I think alot of the problem that is not being discussed here is Coby White. He's just not a playmaker and he's one of the worst guys to have the ball in his hand.

[DuckIII]

I think alot of the problem that is not being discussed here is Coby White. He's just not a playmaker and he's one of the worst guys to have the ball in his hand.

On the contrary, it’s being discussed a lot. To nearly 100% agreement with your view. It’s just that a lot of us want to see that play out so we know what he can do given the opportunity.

The Bulls largely forced this situation on themselves by doing nothing to obtain a desperately needed playmaker. And unless Sato has a break out year, we’re likely not going to address that need until next offseason. So if we are just burning a year anyway, might as well push Coby’s limits and test him out. Not all season necessarily, but certainly more than 2 games.

[nitetrain8603]

I think alot of the problem that is not being discussed here is Coby White. He's just not a playmaker and he's one of the worst guys to have the ball in his hand.

On the contrary, it’s being discussed a lot. To nearly 100% agreement with your view. It’s just that a lot of us want to see that play out so we know what he can do given the opportunity.

The Bulls largely forced this situation on themselves by doing nothing to obtain a desperately needed playmaker. And unless Sato has a break out year, we’re likely not going to address that need until next offseason. So if we are just burning a year anyway, might as well push Coby’s limits and test him out. Not all season necessarily, but certainly more than 2 games.

I should've stated in this particular thread. I don't think you trade Zach as you know what he could do and again, he's barely in his mid-20s. THT sounds like one of the worst ideas ever concocted because we are sick of losing basketball.

[dougthonus]

The Bulls largely forced this situation on themselves by doing nothing to obtain a desperately needed playmaker. And unless Sato has a break out year, we’re likely not going to address that need until next offseason. So if we are just burning a year anyway, might as well push Coby’s limits and test him out. Not all season necessarily, but certainly more than 2 games.

This isn't directed at you per se, but one thing I think about is the answer to this question:

How many players have a 50% chance of still being on this team when it is next over .500?

Patrick Williams and Coby White may literally be the only two, and Coby is dicey. If you (the reader not necessarily the 3rd generation of duck), believe the same thing, then it makes sense that the most important things you can do in this season is to develop Coby and Williams.

If that is the case, then you play Coby at PG for as long as you feel it is having a positive affect on his game. If you feel that at some point it is actually stunting him and not putting him into position to succeed and making him a worse player, then you change up his role. You don't change up his role because Lauri Markkanen or Zach LaVine may play better if you do or because you might get more wins.

You do those things if you think Lauri/Zach are the future though. I just don't think those guys are the future and would be surprised by anyone who did at this point.

[DuckIII]

I think alot of the problem that is not being discussed here is Coby White. He's just not a playmaker and he's one of the worst guys to have the ball in his hand.

On the contrary, it’s being discussed a lot. To nearly 100% agreement with your view. It’s just that a lot of us want to see that play out so we know what he can do given the opportunity.

The Bulls largely forced this situation on themselves by doing nothing to obtain a desperately needed playmaker. And unless Sato has a break out year, we’re likely not going to address that need until next offseason. So if we are just burning a year anyway, might as well push Coby’s limits and test him out. Not all season necessarily, but certainly more than 2 games.

I should've stated in this particular thread. I don't think you trade Zach as you know what he could do and again, he's barely in his mid-20s. THT sounds like one of the worst ideas ever concocted because we are sick of losing basketball.

I’m definitely not in agreement with all the particulars of Suze’s plan, especially the THT part. It’s premature to say the least. Jeremy Lin had a great run, maybe he’s available? So did Lauri, max him out?

Fortunately the sample size will be far more significant before we reach free agency.

As for Zach, I think it’s possible this season will present a unique opportunity to trade him for good value. Possibly even to the team we play tonight. Though I’m not desperate to trade him either. I’d expect good value or keep him, whereas with several others I’d be far less picky about the return, and would move them just to have more options for starting over.

[DuckIII]

The Bulls largely forced this situation on themselves by doing nothing to obtain a desperately needed playmaker. And unless Sato has a break out year, we’re likely not going to address that need until next offseason. So if we are just burning a year anyway, might as well push Coby’s limits and test him out. Not all season necessarily, but certainly more than 2 games.

This isn't directed at you per se, but one thing I think about is the answer to this question:

How many players have a 50% chance of still being on this team when it is next over .500?

Patrick Williams and Coby White may literally be the only two, and Coby is dicey. If you (the reader not necessarily the 3rd generation of duck), believe the same thing, then it makes sense that the most important things you can do in this season is to develop Coby and Williams.

If that is the case, then you play Coby at PG for as long as you feel it is having a positive affect on his game. If you feel that at some point it is actually stunting him and not putting him into position to succeed and making him a worse player, then you change up his role. You don't change up his role because Lauri Markkanen or Zach LaVine may play better if you do or because you might get more wins.

You do those things if you think Lauri/Zach are the future though. I just don't think those guys are the future and would be surprised by anyone who did at this point.

I agree 100%.

[TheSuzerain]

The nuance is that we need to spend the first portion of this year showcasing Zach and Lauri to juice their trade value.

And Coby very obviously needs to be benched for that to happen.

[MGB8]

Josh Jackson (after next season) would be another guy to keep tabs on - Detroit was smart to offer him a 2 year, 10M deal.

[Mk0]

From what I understand, Tucker is Lebron’s special project.

I've seen the THT hype and wrote it off as typical LA over hype'age. But I'm curious, does being "Lebron's special project" have some special valuation/implication? Or were you joking around? Because this post invoked images of Lebron in a lab like some 6'8'' mad scientist Dr Frankenstein for me lol.

LeBron saw him as a either a high school prospect or in his one and done year in college and made sure Klutch was all over him. Lakers traded for the pick and have been developing him on the backburner since. Vogel loves him and during a practice in the bubble was telling the team that he was going to start him this year.

[DuckIII]

The nuance is that we need to spend the first portion of this year showcasing Zach and Lauri to juice their trade value.

And Coby very obviously needs to be benched for that to happen.

Lauri, perhaps. Though Coby’s struggles have not negatively impacted him so far. But they could.

Zach is a known commodity.