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Assembling Core 2.0

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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#61 » by Mk0 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:05 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I've generally had this plan all off-season.
1: Offer Zach a max extension (adds 3/75 onto his deal) if he says no, trade him immediately for the most you can get. Either the Bulls didn't offer or Zach said no. So trade LaVine for as much as you can get now.

2: Trade Lauri for as much as you can get.

3: Trade Coby / Wendell if you feel you can get good value.

4: Trade Sato/Thad if you can get expirings + anything good (even 2nd rounders).

5: Use your massive cap room in 2021 do all you can to get extra picks.

Rebuild as if you have absolutely nothing on the roster at this point.

No chance Zach accepts that extension, so this is basically the scorched earth approach. I like it.

Wiggins is the perfect bad contract for us to eat. We could get legit value back. And it expires with 1-year left on Patrick Williams deal which would be the most opportune time for us to make big moves.

Wiggins looks like the worst contract in the league. He isn't able to do anything on the court right now. Just a truly awful player.

If the Warriors had any assets to ship off with him I would do it, but I don't think they have any picks or prospects to make the dump work. It would have been awesome to swap something around Wendell/Zach for Wiseman/Wiggins. I could see them interested in Lauri.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#62 » by Mk0 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:08 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:I think alot of the problem that is not being discussed here is Coby White. He's just not a playmaker and he's one of the worst guys to have the ball in his hand.

I like White but he makes BG7 look like CP3

If this season is really about long term development you have to let him crap it up out there for at least a dozen games before you pull the plug. If he learns anything about running point this season it could be a really good move long term when he moves into a microwave role.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#63 » by Jimako10 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:09 pm

I'd like to test the new player development investment on Coby for a little while longer before we throw him in the trash. A lot of his issues seem to be between the ears rather than raw skills. Aside from that, I agree with the scorched earth route. Trade everyone aside from PWill and Coby (depending on how he progresses), and collect as many assets as you possibly can.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#64 » by TheSuzerain » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:27 pm

Mk0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I've generally had this plan all off-season.
1: Offer Zach a max extension (adds 3/75 onto his deal) if he says no, trade him immediately for the most you can get. Either the Bulls didn't offer or Zach said no. So trade LaVine for as much as you can get now.

2: Trade Lauri for as much as you can get.

3: Trade Coby / Wendell if you feel you can get good value.

4: Trade Sato/Thad if you can get expirings + anything good (even 2nd rounders).

5: Use your massive cap room in 2021 do all you can to get extra picks.

Rebuild as if you have absolutely nothing on the roster at this point.

No chance Zach accepts that extension, so this is basically the scorched earth approach. I like it.

Wiggins is the perfect bad contract for us to eat. We could get legit value back. And it expires with 1-year left on Patrick Williams deal which would be the most opportune time for us to make big moves.

Wiggins looks like the worst contract in the league. He isn't able to do anything on the court right now. Just a truly awful player.

If the Warriors had any assets to ship off with him I would do it, but I don't think they have any picks or prospects to make the dump work. It would have been awesome to swap something around Wendell/Zach for Wiseman/Wiggins. I could see them interested in Lauri.

They have the Twolves pick to trade. Also their 2021 1st rounder if it lands in spots 1-20 (I think?).

They also have a 2026 1st rounder to deal.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#65 » by Mk0 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:30 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Mk0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:No chance Zach accepts that extension, so this is basically the scorched earth approach. I like it.

Wiggins is the perfect bad contract for us to eat. We could get legit value back. And it expires with 1-year left on Patrick Williams deal which would be the most opportune time for us to make big moves.

Wiggins looks like the worst contract in the league. He isn't able to do anything on the court right now. Just a truly awful player.

If the Warriors had any assets to ship off with him I would do it, but I don't think they have any picks or prospects to make the dump work. It would have been awesome to swap something around Wendell/Zach for Wiseman/Wiggins. I could see them interested in Lauri.

They have the Twolves pick to trade. Also their 2021 1st rounder if it lands in spots 1-20 (I think?).

They also have a 2026 1st rounder to deal.

I thought the TWolves pick is top 3 protected
2026 feels so far away but that may be a nice investment
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#66 » by TheSuzerain » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:45 pm

Mk0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Mk0 wrote:Wiggins looks like the worst contract in the league. He isn't able to do anything on the court right now. Just a truly awful player.

If the Warriors had any assets to ship off with him I would do it, but I don't think they have any picks or prospects to make the dump work. It would have been awesome to swap something around Wendell/Zach for Wiseman/Wiggins. I could see them interested in Lauri.

They have the Twolves pick to trade. Also their 2021 1st rounder if it lands in spots 1-20 (I think?).

They also have a 2026 1st rounder to deal.

I thought the TWolves pick is top 3 protected
2026 feels so far away but that may be a nice investment

The Minnesota pick is protected 1-3 for 2021. Is then unprotected in 2022 if it doesn't convey in 2021.

A trade I really like as it simultaneously does a lot of things for us, and it seems desirable for the Warriors as well:

Bulls trade:
- Zach Lavine
- Tomas Satoransky

Warriors trade
- Andrew Wiggins
- 2021 MN 1st
- 2021 GS 1st (conveyed if lands between 5-20 or something, if it does not convey, we get two 2nds)
- 2026 GS 1st with as little protection as we can negotiate
- Maybe grab another 2nd rounder or something

That trade stabilizes the Warriors this year as they could roll with:

Steph
Lavine
Oubre
Dray
Wiseman

Sato
Paschall

Then they plug in Klay for Oubre and try to make 1 more go at it with their dynasty core.

For the Bulls, gives us a very clear direction for the next 2-3 years (rebuild). It gives us lots of extra picks to play with as well. This trade would also completely tank this season which likely means a top 5 pick in the 2021 draft.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#67 » by PlayerUp » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:46 pm

Jimako10 wrote:I'd like to test the new player development investment on Coby for a little while longer before we throw him in the trash. A lot of his issues seem to be between the ears rather than raw skills. Aside from that, I agree with the scorched earth route. Trade everyone aside from PWill and Coby (depending on how he progresses), and collect as many assets as you possibly can.


Nobody is saying trade Coby. We can try to make it work with him. Everyone else besides him and Patrick Williams should really be moved. Wendell will be a RFA in 2022, Lauri isn't worth bringing back, Lavine will be gone in 2022, Otto will be gone in 2021, the young bench players we have all have low ceilings.

This roster needs a fresh restart.

??? - ??? - ????
Coby White - ??? - ???
Patrick Williams - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???

This should be our roster 6 months now. Cleanhouse and keep these 2.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#68 » by DuckIII » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:04 pm

Jimako10 wrote:I'd like to test the new player development investment on Coby for a little while longer before we throw him in the trash. A lot of his issues seem to be between the ears rather than raw skills. Aside from that, I agree with the scorched earth route. Trade everyone aside from PWill and Coby (depending on how he progresses), and collect as many assets as you possibly can.


Even if Coby fails as a point guard, which I expect, you don’t throw him in the trash. He has all the tools and the playing style of a scoring 6th man combo guard. That’s a valuable player to have.

I’m not writing off White even if he caps out at what I expected when we drafted him, which is a high end role player.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#69 » by dougthonus » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:14 pm

DuckIII wrote:Even if Coby fails as a point guard, which I expect, you don’t throw him in the trash. He has all the tools and the playing style of a scoring 6th man combo guard. That’s a valuable player to have.

I’m not writing off White even if he caps out at what I expected when we drafted him, which is a high end role player.


I kind of expect that too, and then it will be decided on what his market value and where we are as a team. Lauri is probably a high end role player, but I'm ready to part ways based on the type of role player and what he will cost. Coby could easily end up in the same boat.

If you have at least 1 really legit star and you're not below the cap by the margin of the players salary, it makes sense to keep those guys.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#70 » by Hold That » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:21 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Jimako10 wrote:I'd like to test the new player development investment on Coby for a little while longer before we throw him in the trash. A lot of his issues seem to be between the ears rather than raw skills. Aside from that, I agree with the scorched earth route. Trade everyone aside from PWill and Coby (depending on how he progresses), and collect as many assets as you possibly can.


Nobody is saying trade Coby. We can try to make it work with him. Everyone else besides him and Patrick Williams should really be moved. Wendell will be a RFA in 2022, Lauri isn't worth bringing back, Lavine will be gone in 2022, Otto will be gone in 2021, the young bench players we have all have low ceilings.

This roster needs a fresh restart.

??? - ??? - ????
Coby White - ??? - ???
Patrick Williams - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???

This should be our roster 6 months now. Cleanhouse and keep these 2.

Coby is one of the assets I’d liquidate into a first rounders. Honestly trading Zach,Lauri,Coby,Wendell, and Otto would net us atleast 3-5 future first round picks, almost all will be mid to late, and some spread out through drafts 21-23, but I’m fine with that. Especially when they will be coupled with our very own lottery picks to rebuild. This is exactly what Presti is doing in OKC. The reset button needs to be pressed.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#71 » by PlayerUp » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:06 am

Hold That wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Jimako10 wrote:I'd like to test the new player development investment on Coby for a little while longer before we throw him in the trash. A lot of his issues seem to be between the ears rather than raw skills. Aside from that, I agree with the scorched earth route. Trade everyone aside from PWill and Coby (depending on how he progresses), and collect as many assets as you possibly can.


Nobody is saying trade Coby. We can try to make it work with him. Everyone else besides him and Patrick Williams should really be moved. Wendell will be a RFA in 2022, Lauri isn't worth bringing back, Lavine will be gone in 2022, Otto will be gone in 2021, the young bench players we have all have low ceilings.

This roster needs a fresh restart.

??? - ??? - ????
Coby White - ??? - ???
Patrick Williams - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???

This should be our roster 6 months now. Cleanhouse and keep these 2.

Coby is one of the assets I’d liquidate into a first rounders. Honestly trading Zach,Lauri,Coby,Wendell, and Otto would net us atleast 3-5 future first round picks, almost all will be mid to late, and some spread out through drafts 21-23, but I’m fine with that. Especially when they will be coupled with our very own lottery picks to rebuild. This is exactly what Presti is doing in OKC. The reset button needs to be pressed.


How much more value would Coby potentially have if you developed him another year or 2 when he is the #1 option versus trading him prematurely. No reason to trade Coby after 1 season unless you're getting fair value back.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#72 » by Grodoboldo » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:35 am

How much would the Warriors pay us to try to save their season and their cap sheet?
Would Zach + Otto + Lauri for Wiggins + Green nab us Minny's 21, and GSW's own 21', 23' and 25'?

(yes, I see Green's salary as a huge negative)

Edit: they don't have that many picks to trade. I'd maybe still do it for Minny's 1st and their own 21' and 26'
"Losing" a trade in the general perception but getting a useful piece out of it is better than losing an asset for nothing.
Trade Zach, trade Lauri, trade Otto, trade Young, trade Sato.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#73 » by PlayerUp » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:02 am

Grodoboldo wrote:Would Zach + Otto + Lauri for Wiggins + Green nab us Minny's 21, and GSW's own 21', 23' and 25'?


Warriors can't trade the 21, 23 and 25 1st Rd Picks. Warriors Assets include:

21 - Right to Swap Picks
22 - Right to Swap Picks
23 - Right to Swap Picks
25 - Right to Swap Picks
26 - Unprotected 1st Rd Pick
27 - Right to Swap Picks
Minnesota Timberwolves 1st Rd Picks
2nd Rd Picks
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#74 » by mkittaka » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:38 am

We need to tank for Lebron James jr
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#75 » by Nate3carp » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:57 am

PlayerUp wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:Would Zach + Otto + Lauri for Wiggins + Green nab us Minny's 21, and GSW's own 21', 23' and 25'?


Warriors can't trade the 21, 23 and 25 1st Rd Picks. Warriors Assets include:

21 - Right to Swap Picks
22 - Right to Swap Picks
23 - Right to Swap Picks
25 - Right to Swap Picks
26 - Unprotected 1st Rd Pick
27 - Right to Swap Picks
Minnesota Timberwolves 1st Rd Picks
2nd Rd Picks

I think they could trade ‘21 if it falls in the 1-20 protected range. I don’t think they can technically trade ‘26 until their ‘24 pick conveys as it is protected into 2026.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#76 » by PlayerUp » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:04 am

Nate3carp wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:Would Zach + Otto + Lauri for Wiggins + Green nab us Minny's 21, and GSW's own 21', 23' and 25'?


Warriors can't trade the 21, 23 and 25 1st Rd Picks. Warriors Assets include:

21 - Right to Swap Picks
22 - Right to Swap Picks
23 - Right to Swap Picks
25 - Right to Swap Picks
26 - Unprotected 1st Rd Pick
27 - Right to Swap Picks
Minnesota Timberwolves 1st Rd Picks
2nd Rd Picks

I think they could trade ‘21 if it falls in the 1-20 protected range. I don’t think they can technically trade ‘26 until their ‘24 pick conveys as it is protected into 2026.


You're right.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#77 » by PlayerUp » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:06 am

mkittaka wrote:We need to tank for Lebron James jr


Why? He's part of the 2023 class and ranked #25 in his class. He likely doesn't declare until 2024 draft.

If HS players can declare in 2022, the 2021 and 2022 will be the best 2 drafts we have to reshape this roster.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#78 » by The Box Office » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:45 pm

I agree with most of Suzerain's post except Talen Horton-Tucker.

Absolutely not. That's terrible to give a huge contract to an unknown unproven guy. Highlighting just one preseason game?

No, thank you.

If T. Tucker did that for 2 PLAYOFF games then he has my absolute attention. Hell, I'll take 10 regular season games against starters. Reminds me of the Buffalo Bills being woo'd by QB Rob Johnson when Rob had one huge regular season game as QB for Jacksonville Jaguars. Buffalo Bills Wade Phillips loved that ONE game so much, he went out and offered a mega contract to Rob Johnson.

Rob was a complete bust for Buffalo. Turns out, the Bills had the superior QB all along and that person is Doug Flutie. Cost Wade Phillips his Buffalo Bills head coaching job.

Let's not be Wade Phillips.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#79 » by Grodoboldo » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:15 pm

I really wanted THT that 2nd round (though I was fine with Gafford). I see him kinda like a Lance Stephenson type, but with less crazy and more handling. I don't know about paying him that much, but I have to admit that I see a (unlikely) path to him being worth it.
"Losing" a trade in the general perception but getting a useful piece out of it is better than losing an asset for nothing.
Trade Zach, trade Lauri, trade Otto, trade Young, trade Sato.
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Re: Assembling Core 2.0 

Post#80 » by Am2626 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:15 pm

WookieOnRitalin wrote:Bulls cannot sign marquee free agents. It should never be a part of our plan. We should always try of course, but I will bet the farm on it not happening.

-Ron Mercer
-Ben Wallace
-Carlos Boozer
-Aged Pau Gasol
-Aged Wade

Chicago is a terrible FA destination. I think the biggest marquee signing in the last 20 years have been relegated to the coastal areas or areas with low to zero income tax (hello Texas!).

So this means we got to bet on the draft and hope our talent evaluations hold up. We need to suck bad to get some decent picks and just have a "hustle and try's hard, but loses" team for the next couple of years. That way, when some real talent comes on board, you've built a different type of culture for that talent to walk into.

I do not know what Lauri/Carter/Lavine/Coby can get us in return, but I figure whatever we can get should be viewed at increasing our odds at generating the best outcomes from the draft.


A lot of the failures of not getting top free agents has more to do with the incompetence of GarPax than it has to do with Chicago not being a good destination. Any big market should be an attractive FA destination. Adding to that the iconic status of the Bulls brand and Chicago should be a great place for free agents to want to come to. Before GarPax it was the negativity surrounding the organization that dismantled a dynasty. That explains why stars haven’t come to Chicago in the last 20 years. That should change now.

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