OT: Storming of the Capitol/Coup Attempt

[Dresden]

I would echo Musique's last post. It's one thing to be a 'disruptor', it's another thing to not follow norms that in place FOR A REASON. Like releasing your taxes, so the people can see if you might have conflicts of interest. Like NOT undermining the faith in our electoral system. Do we really want more candidates like that? Is that a good direction for us to be moving in, where every election in the future will be mistrusted, and the results challenged repeatedly in courts? Or having presidents upending relationships with allies that have been painstakingly built over centuries? I don't think so.

The problem is that the left made it clear they intended to "resist [Trump] at all costs" which then raised the specter of what did they intend to do with the tax returns? Pour over them to find something they could fabricate into a criminal charge? The disrobing of Trump would have been so much easier if we didn't have Hillary destroying 30k plus emails, Hillary/the DNC commissioning the Steele report, FBI operatives lying to the FISA court to spy on Carter Page...all of these missteps tainted the Democrats and fed into Trump's narrative that DC is corrupt and power hungry. Sadly, the DNC and its political base simply couldn't help themselves from showing their corruption.

That's a weak excuse. Obama released his taxes, even though it was clear that the GOP was out to get him (aka the birther movement).

[Jo Jo English]

After reading things like this and seeing what those people did at the Capitol last week I don't think I will ever be able to hear a republican question a democrat's patriotism or call them a "snowflake" again without bursting out in laughter.

Yes, because "all people who stormed capitol buildings == all republicans"...basic logic fail.

Speaking of logic...

I didn't claim that every person who stormed the capital = all republicans. I know people who supported Trump 4 years ago, despise him now, and are horrified by what took place at the Capitol. I specifically said I was referring to my likely reaction to republicans who, after all that we've just witnessed, would have the gall to continue to question the patriotism of democrats and toss around terms like "snowflake." Big difference there. Bigly even.

One would think they would have enough to deal with getting their own house in order right now regarding the disease in their party. The ones that have no interest in doing that and want to continue to toss verbal bombs at democrats absolutely deserve a response of mockery.

[ikeziskash]

John Sullivan, left wing agitator, and Cnn and msnbc guest, has been taken into custody by the fbi for leading abs provoking the incident at the Capitol.

[Cabbage bulls]

As if to immediately prove my point.

I guess Australia just lets the US have military bases there, deploy troops there, and purchases large amounts of weapons from the US for the hell of it.

What exactly is your assertion?

The US and Australia are military and trade partners. What does this have to do with my initial post?

I should turn off my brain, ignore my lying eyes and kiss your feet?

Is your response to criticisms of the US really "Well, China is worse. Thank your lucky stars we aren't China." ?

Have some respect for the greatest country in the history of the world. This inferiority complex is disgusting

[LateNight]

John Sullivan, left wing agitator, and Cnn and msnbc guest, has been taken into custody by the fbi for leading abs provoking the incident at the Capitol.

And if he was agitating he’ll face consequences. He filmed himself so I assume that will be good evidence.

However - Babbitt, Larry Brock (the veteran man who got into the chamber and previously stated that “Men with guns need to shoot their way in“), the Republican legislators that have been arrested - those were not part of a some BS false flag operation. Those were trump supporters who were radicalized and spurred on by repeated lies and violent revolutionary rhetoric.

The attack at the capitol happened and the attempts to “both sides” it won’t work. There will be thorough investigations - but already, as more details come out, this has seemed worse, not less severe. at this stage it seems quite clear there were radical right wingers who were discussing plans for an event like this or worse for weeks leading up to the 6th.

If the Republican Party wants to distance themselves from it, they’ll have to be honest about that (as many have been). And they’ll have to distance themselves from Trump’s rabble-rousing and conspiracy-baiting (as well as the people who enabled it) — otherwise you are tacitly condoning the behavior that lead to this situation.

[ozbull]

I guess Australia just lets the US have military bases there, deploy troops there, and purchases large amounts of weapons from the US for the hell of it.

What exactly is your assertion?

The US and Australia are military and trade partners. What does this have to do with my initial post?

I should turn off my brain, ignore my lying eyes and kiss your feet?

Is your response to criticisms of the US really "Well, China is worse. Thank your lucky stars we aren't China." ?

Have some respect for the greatest country in the history of the world. This inferiority complex is disgusting

[TheStig]

I would echo Musique's last post. It's one thing to be a 'disruptor', it's another thing to not follow norms that in place FOR A REASON. Like releasing your taxes, so the people can see if you might have conflicts of interest. Like NOT undermining the faith in our electoral system. Do we really want more candidates like that? Is that a good direction for us to be moving in, where every election in the future will be mistrusted, and the results challenged repeatedly in courts? Or having presidents upending relationships with allies that have been painstakingly built over centuries? I don't think so.

The problem is that the left made it clear they intended to "resist [Trump] at all costs" which then raised the specter of what did they intend to do with the tax returns? Pour over them to find something they could fabricate into a criminal charge? The disrobing of Trump would have been so much easier if we didn't have Hillary destroying 30k plus emails, Hillary/the DNC commissioning the Steele report, FBI operatives lying to the FISA court to spy on Carter Page...all of these missteps tainted the Democrats and fed into Trump's narrative that DC is corrupt and power hungry. Sadly, the DNC and its political base simply couldn't help themselves from showing their corruption.

That's a weak excuse. Obama released his taxes, even though it was clear that the GOP was out to get him (aka the birther movement).

What business did Obama run while taking aggressive/questionable tax deductions? That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

[dougthonus]

Twitter and Facebook have seen $51 billion of combined market value wiped out since booting Trump from their platforms

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/facebook-twitter-stock-price-trump-ban-capitol-riots-twtr-fb-2021-1-1029965338

This article is a day old. Facebook stock dropped another $15+b today and Twitter another $3+b

Twitter definitely lost a lot of value with Trump leaving. He was responsible for a massive amount of twitter traffic, he probably would have gone way down in that anyway after leaving the presidency, but maybe cut in half instead of to zero.

That said, Twitter is still sitting at a higher price today than at any point prior to Nov 2020. Its actually an insane stock price IMO given they really have no great business model, are losing tons and tons of money and are a dying platform. Facebook is higher than any point prior to July 2020, so its not like these companies crashed and burned to any real bottoms.

[Dresden]

The problem is that the left made it clear they intended to "resist [Trump] at all costs" which then raised the specter of what did they intend to do with the tax returns? Pour over them to find something they could fabricate into a criminal charge? The disrobing of Trump would have been so much easier if we didn't have Hillary destroying 30k plus emails, Hillary/the DNC commissioning the Steele report, FBI operatives lying to the FISA court to spy on Carter Page...all of these missteps tainted the Democrats and fed into Trump's narrative that DC is corrupt and power hungry. Sadly, the DNC and its political base simply couldn't help themselves from showing their corruption.

That's a weak excuse. Obama released his taxes, even though it was clear that the GOP was out to get him (aka the birther movement).

What business did Obama run while taking aggressive/questionable tax deductions? That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

Regardless, that's the whole point of releasing your taxes- to be transparent about what your business interests are, so that your actions can be judged in light of that. As president, you have enormous influence, and it's important for people to be able to see that you aren't being affected by those businesses interests in executing your job as president. To say that you're afraid to do so because people might find something wrong in your taxes is just weak. If you have that much to hide, you shouldn't be running for office.

[musiqsoulchild]

It's over. This will be a defining moment.

[url] https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/15/politics/capitol-capture-assassinate-elected-officials/index.html
[/url]
Thank God for FBI and for Democratic control of the House, Senate and Presidency for the next 2 years when the majority of the FBI investigation will be completed.

The rioters were fully intent on restraining and assassinating elected officials INCLUDING VP Pence.

[a8bil]

That's a weak excuse. Obama released his taxes, even though it was clear that the GOP was out to get him (aka the birther movement).

What business did Obama run while taking aggressive/questionable tax deductions? That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

Regardless, that's the whole point of releasing your taxes- to be transparent about what your business interests are, so that your actions can be judged in light of that. As president, you have enormous influence, and it's important for people to be able to see that you aren't being affected by those businesses interests in executing your job as president. To say that you're afraid to do so because people might find something wrong in your taxes is just weak. If you have that much to hide, you shouldn't be running for office.

You know, that has been historically the reason for requesting tax returns, although there is no legal obligation to do so, but as other note, Trump came in a reputed "billionaire" and his holdings -- golf courses, hotels, resorts -- are all pretty well known. It wouldn't take a genius to know when his policies might benefit his financial interests, which again feeds the question -- why the need to see his tax returns? There is a prurient interest in the public to see these things, but the DNC's motives were transparent...they seized on every little bit of information suggesting Trump had committed some sort of fraud in his business activities (as if his track record wasn't enough), going so far as to rely on Michael Cohen as a source. Let me ask you a separate question since you seem so concerned about whether Trump has used his office to gain financially: Does it bother you that every one of the DNC political elite have used their office to become multi-millionaires? I mean, Hillary and Bill said that they were penniless when Bill left office, and now estimates have them worth $300 million. Obama was a community activist, now he's buying up properties worth tens of millions of dollars. Sounds like a kangaroo republic doesn't it? These parties -- dems and repubs wield so much power and they know it. They peddle influence everyday, and the average person doesn't seem to care.

[TheStig]

That's a weak excuse. Obama released his taxes, even though it was clear that the GOP was out to get him (aka the birther movement).

What business did Obama run while taking aggressive/questionable tax deductions? That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

Regardless, that's the whole point of releasing your taxes- to be transparent about what your business interests are, so that your actions can be judged in light of that. As president, you have enormous influence, and it's important for people to be able to see that you aren't being affected by those businesses interests in executing your job as president. To say that you're afraid to do so because people might find something wrong in your taxes is just weak. If you have that much to hide, you shouldn't be running for office.

If you feel so strongly about the issue you should advocate that your congress person make it a law. But Trump did complete all required financial disclosures. If I were being audited, I certainly wouldn't release my taxes to the general public to be picked apart and create more issues in such a public event. We all know the rich/corps don't pay their fair share. Rumors came out that he paid next to nothing. I don't think anyone thinks Trump was paying his fair share.

[TheStig]

What business did Obama run while taking aggressive/questionable tax deductions? That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

Regardless, that's the whole point of releasing your taxes- to be transparent about what your business interests are, so that your actions can be judged in light of that. As president, you have enormous influence, and it's important for people to be able to see that you aren't being affected by those businesses interests in executing your job as president. To say that you're afraid to do so because people might find something wrong in your taxes is just weak. If you have that much to hide, you shouldn't be running for office.

You know, that has been historically the reason for requesting tax returns, although there is no legal obligation to do so, but as other note, Trump came in a reputed "billionaire" and his holdings -- golf courses, hotels, resorts -- are all pretty well known. It wouldn't take a genius to know when his policies might benefit his financial interests, which again feeds the question -- why the need to see his tax returns? There is a prurient interest in the public to see these things, but the DNC's motives were transparent...they seized on every little bit of information suggesting Trump had committed some sort of fraud in his business activities (as if his track record wasn't enough), going so far as to rely on Michael Cohen as a source. Let me ask you a separate question since you seem so concerned about whether Trump has used his office to gain financially: Does it bother you that every one of the DNC political elite have used their office to become multi-millionaires? I mean, Hillary and Bill said that they were penniless when Bill left office, and now estimates have them worth $300 million. Obama was a community activist, now he's buying up properties worth tens of millions of dollars. Sounds like a kangaroo republic doesn't it? These parties -- dems and repubs wield so much power and they know it. They peddle influence everyday, and the average person doesn't seem to care.

They all use their office to gain influence and money. The Clinton's left the white house nearly broke and are worth well over a 100 million dollars. Obama was worth around 1-2 million. Now he's worth tens of millions and bought 12 million dollar house. Same thing for republicans. They certainly didn't make all those millions off saving the 400k salary.

[Ice Man]

Does it bother you that every one of the DNC political elite have used their office to become multi-millionaires?

Putting everything into the same bucket, then waving one's hands and saying "this is all equally bad" doesn't get us very far. Earning money from writing Presidential memoirs is very different than suggesting to White House visitors that if they want a hearing from the President, they will need to patronize the President's personal businesses.

Just an example, if you want to say that Trump never did the latter, that's fine. I'm not here to call Trump guilty, I am here instead that there are plenty of legitimate ways for politicians to accrue wealth, and also plenty of illegitimate reasons.

[TheStig]

Twitter and Facebook have seen $51 billion of combined market value wiped out since booting Trump from their platforms

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/facebook-twitter-stock-price-trump-ban-capitol-riots-twtr-fb-2021-1-1029965338

This article is a day old. Facebook stock dropped another $15+b today and Twitter another $3+b

Twitter definitely lost a lot of value with Trump leaving. He was responsible for a massive amount of twitter traffic, he probably would have gone way down in that anyway after leaving the presidency, but maybe cut in half instead of to zero.

That said, Twitter is still sitting at a higher price today than at any point prior to Nov 2020. Its actually an insane stock price IMO given they really have no great business model, are losing tons and tons of money and are a dying platform. Facebook is higher than any point prior to July 2020, so its not like these companies crashed and burned to any real bottoms.

It's just a blip for the big social media companies. If anything the effect of Trump using those platforms has already paid off in additional users wanting to hear his voice unfiltered.

[DuckIII]

John Sullivan, left wing agitator, and Cnn and msnbc guest, has been taken into custody by the fbi for leading abs provoking the incident at the Capitol.

Good. Law enforcement should not and will not differentiate based on motives. If there were liberals in there being “fake” insurrectionists to make the alt right look bad, lock them up too. **** em all.

[a8bil]

Does it bother you that every one of the DNC political elite have used their office to become multi-millionaires?

Putting everything into the same bucket, then waving one's hands and saying "this is all equally bad" doesn't get us very far. Earning money from writing Presidential memoirs is very different than suggesting to White House visitors that if they want a hearing from the President, they will need to patronize the President's personal businesses.

Just an example, if you want to say that Trump never did the latter, that's fine. I'm not here to call Trump guilty, I am here instead that there are plenty of legitimate ways for politicians to accrue wealth, and also plenty of illegitimate reasons.

But we also don't get very far if we don't grapple with the truth of the situation. The presidential memoirs, the speaking engagements for $250k...all of this is money coming in to buy influence. Both political parties have the power to make and destroy political careers. Fall in line or lose all party funding and support, or see the party support a candidate against you. This flood of money to the political elite is nothing more or less than bribery. By contrast, although I have no doubt that Trump would do something like that, is that what we are really concerned about? A $500/night hotel stay? Although wrong and petty, if true, hardly worth even writing about .

[Dresden]

It's over. This will be a defining moment.

[url] https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/15/politics/capitol-capture-assassinate-elected-officials/index.html
[/url]
Thank God for FBI and for Democratic control of the House, Senate and Presidency for the next 2 years when the majority of the FBI investigation will be completed.

The rioters were fully intent on restraining and assassinating elected officials INCLUDING VP Pence.

It will be enlightening to see how wide of a net the investigations end up casting. Besides just those who were inside the capitol, it appears they might have been part of a larger conspiracy who planned and funded the riot. If so, how many of those people will also be charged with crimes, and where will it lead? Hopefully it will take down a lot of dangerous people. There was some nut job caught on film calling the Capitol Police traitors, and yelling that the only punishment fit for them was death.

[Dresden]

What business did Obama run while taking aggressive/questionable tax deductions? That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

Regardless, that's the whole point of releasing your taxes- to be transparent about what your business interests are, so that your actions can be judged in light of that. As president, you have enormous influence, and it's important for people to be able to see that you aren't being affected by those businesses interests in executing your job as president. To say that you're afraid to do so because people might find something wrong in your taxes is just weak. If you have that much to hide, you shouldn't be running for office.

You know, that has been historically the reason for requesting tax returns, although there is no legal obligation to do so, but as other note, Trump came in a reputed "billionaire" and his holdings -- golf courses, hotels, resorts -- are all pretty well known. It wouldn't take a genius to know when his policies might benefit his financial interests, which again feeds the question -- why the need to see his tax returns? There is a prurient interest in the public to see these things, but the DNC's motives were transparent...they seized on every little bit of information suggesting Trump had committed some sort of fraud in his business activities (as if his track record wasn't enough), going so far as to rely on Michael Cohen as a source. Let me ask you a separate question since you seem so concerned about whether Trump has used his office to gain financially: Does it bother you that every one of the DNC political elite have used their office to become multi-millionaires? I mean, Hillary and Bill said that they were penniless when Bill left office, and now estimates have them worth $300 million. Obama was a community activist, now he's buying up properties worth tens of millions of dollars. Sounds like a kangaroo republic doesn't it? These parties -- dems and repubs wield so much power and they know it. They peddle influence everyday, and the average person doesn't seem to care.

I don't see how what they do when they leave office matters all that much. Most of the money these people make come from speaking engagements or book royalties. Would you tell them they can't take speaking fees?

It was not easy at all to know where Trump's funding to run all these ventures was coming from- that is one of the big unanswered questions. Was it from a foreign bank? Or some Russian syndicate? And aside from that question, Trump is said to own over 500 business entities. Do you think it's easy for the average person to keep track of that?

[Dresden]

Does it bother you that every one of the DNC political elite have used their office to become multi-millionaires?

Putting everything into the same bucket, then waving one's hands and saying "this is all equally bad" doesn't get us very far. Earning money from writing Presidential memoirs is very different than suggesting to White House visitors that if they want a hearing from the President, they will need to patronize the President's personal businesses.

Just an example, if you want to say that Trump never did the latter, that's fine. I'm not here to call Trump guilty, I am here instead that there are plenty of legitimate ways for politicians to accrue wealth, and also plenty of illegitimate reasons.

But we also don't get very far if we don't grapple with the truth of the situation. The presidential memoirs, the speaking engagements for $250k...all of this is money coming in to buy influence. Both political parties have the power to make and destroy political careers. Fall in line or lose all party funding and support, or see the party support a candidate against you. This flood of money to the political elite is nothing more or less than bribery. By contrast, although I have no doubt that Trump would do something like that, is that what we are really concerned about? A $500/night hotel stay? Although wrong and petty, if true, hardly worth even writing about .

If you don't think it's important whether or not a president uses his office to enrich himself through his business interests you are missing the point of why the Founders added an emoluments clause to the Constitution.