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GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#61 » by Mk0 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:35 pm

I liked hearing him talk about Temple walking him through some extra shootarounds. Pat said he was used to taking a rhythm dribble before his shot and Temple told him there isn't time for that in this league.

Garrett Temple is earning his paycheck.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#62 » by gardenofsound » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:29 pm

dougthonus wrote:
rtblues wrote:Eleven games, no training camp, shortened preseason,19 yrs old, the youngest American player drafted, didn't start in college, learning a new system, team, and league...

Patience folks, patience. You can see it all coming.


The only question now to me is "good" or "great" with Pat. Worst case, looks like you have a versatile, strong defender, that can knock down open 3s, finish, and hit mid ranges shots. Adding shot creation / passing would make him a superstar potential type guy, granted, those are the toughest two things you can ask someone to add, so I don't view it as overly likely, but he's probably a minimum 15M per year guy with only experience and no new skills.


I agree with this assessment.

We need to be prepared for Pat to be in that very good role player category. Like, there's a world where he ends up being as impactful as a prime Rashard Lewis. Rashard Lewis was a very good player and was a key cog on a contender. If he weren't a historically bad contract, he'd probably be looked upon in a different light.

The Kawhi, Paul George, and Jimmy comps just seem way too early. He's far ahead of where those guys were at 19yo (Jimmy was playing junior college ball, Kawhi was a sophomore at SDSU best known for his rebounding, and Paul George was a sophomore at Fresno State.

In terms of quality of prospect, Pat is far beyond them. But what kind of makes those three so special is how they completely reversed the narrative on themselves and went from being afterthought kinds of guys to bona fide superstar MVP candidates.

The league is going to start game planning for Pat, and he's going to start to be less open from 3. Can he quicken his release to get those shots off with less space? Will his midrange still be money when bigs start coming up to protect the elbow? Will he be more disciplined about jumping on pump fakes?

Then comes the question of what he's going to add to his game? He seems to already have relatively strong court awareness, so if he can really develop a strong dribble-drive penetration game and become a stronger finisher at the rim, then you're talking about a perennial all star. If he adds that along with an iso shot creation game, then he's perennial all-NBA.

But, as Doug said, right now, if he just adds experience but doesn't add to his game, he's going to be a fringe all-star and maybe a #3 or #4 on a title contender. And honestly, for the fourth pick in the draft--particularly this draft--that's not a terrible outcome.

Like, there's such a wide spectrum of outcomes for the guy. As it is now, he's a fundamentally sound, limited weakness player with a sick (albeit slow) shot. For a 19 year old, that's really good, but it's not a HoF harbinger. He's not Luka, or Trae, or Tatum (yet).

But if he develops right and grows into a leader, he can be in that echelon.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#63 » by R3AL1TY » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:40 pm

Mk0 wrote:I liked hearing him talk about Temple walking him through some extra shootarounds. Pat said he was used to taking a rhythm dribble before his shot and Temple told him there isn't time for that in this league.

Garrett Temple is earning his paycheck.

Temple's experience and presence brought some stability to the offense. It's good to hear that he's giving the young guys a few pointers.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#64 » by pipfan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:45 pm

I am hopeful his realistic floor is Deng. Of course, any player can bust out of the league, but I think he has the attitude and talent to get to a "marginal all star" level, like Deng was. That makes him an awesome pick. Anything more than that would be outstanding for us.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#65 » by Mk0 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:52 pm

R3AL1TY wrote:
Mk0 wrote:I liked hearing him talk about Temple walking him through some extra shootarounds. Pat said he was used to taking a rhythm dribble before his shot and Temple told him there isn't time for that in this league.

Garrett Temple is earning his paycheck.

Temple's experience and presence brought some stability to the offense. It's good to hear that he's giving the young guys a few pointers.

I am all in on the "Antonio Davis" vets. Having a professional on the bench is huge. Not just in-game but as Pat said (in the Clippers post game interview) to help after practice.

Having vets fill the mentor role is just so important.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-bulls-jimmy-butler-spt-1130-20161129-story.html
"Man, I love that kid," Deng said in a November 2012 interview with the Tribune. "I know what this league is like. I know the opportunity he has in front of him. He has all the talent in the world. So I just want to help him. We go to the gym every night and get shots up and talk about the game. It's just the relationship we have. And I really appreciate it."

Butler appreciates it too, calling Deng "my guy."
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#66 » by weneeda2guard » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 pm

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-jan-13-2021-edition?cid=nba_articles_socialowned_youtubecommunity_rookieladder&_branch_match_id=673956870412713426

Has Patrick Williams at 5. Seems the concensus is the only guy we passed on was Haliburton but honestly a lot of teams didn't see him coming.

I also think in the long term Williams will end up better than Anthony edwards and could have more nba success than ball or Wiseman.

I post this because I think with Williams starting we should start pushing for Williams to get rookie of the year nods especially when we get some more winning going. Out of the 4 players they have ahead of Williams we could end the season with a better record than minny, hornets and kings and Wiseman playing with curry draymond could hurt him getting the award. Williams as a clear 3rd option for the bulls as a low playoff seed could make a strong case for him with the award.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#67 » by rtblues » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:55 am

dougthonus wrote:
rtblues wrote:Eleven games, no training camp, shortened preseason,19 yrs old, the youngest American player drafted, didn't start in college, learning a new system, team, and league...

Patience folks, patience. You can see it all coming.


The only question now to me is "good" or "great" with Pat. Worst case, looks like you have a versatile, strong defender, that can knock down open 3s, finish, and hit mid ranges shots. Adding shot creation / passing would make him a superstar potential type guy, granted, those are the toughest two things you can ask someone to add, so I don't view it as overly likely, but he's probably a minimum 15M per year guy with only experience and no new skills.

Yeah, I wasn't saying that he was going to turn into a "star player", he's not perfect, agreed.

The things I'd like to see PW improve are:
Motor - Sometimes he's sort of sleepwalking out there, perhaps deferring to others, not sure.
His role in the offense - Too many times he simply sets up in the corner behind the 3-pt line and stays there a long time.
Defensive Rebounds/Rebounds - He should be able to improve this, I hope.

Time will tell, but one thing is for sure, I don't think his NBA/Pro Sample Size is enough to fully judge what he might become.
I really wonder how much he can improve by say, 30 games in, so approx 20 more games (19 to be exact). Let's continue this
discussion after that.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#68 » by Clocian » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:35 pm

Fun guy Pat > Fun guy Kawhai

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#69 » by madvillian » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:52 pm

[instagram][/instagram]
Clocian wrote:Fun guy Pat > Fun guy Kawhai

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Man it's easy to forget he's basically still a kid. Me at 19, come on man. I was hardly ready to pass my classes or even show up.

Also, watching Michigan Wisconsin the other night Pat and Franz Wagner have a similar game. Both really big, long 3/4 combos in a good way that can also maybe even guard some 2s and 5s on occasion. Pat's handle is better but similar styles driving as they use their length to just finish over guys without explosive athleticism.
dumbell78 wrote:Random comment....Mikal Bridges stroke is dripping right now in summer league. Carry on.


I'll go ahead and make a sig bet that Mikal is better by RPM this year than Zach.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#70 » by MrSparkle » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

As the James Wiseman sample size increases, the red flags are raised. Terrible advanced stats, and the 'bad' moments have been Kwame bad (blocked by small guys, bad instincts, slow reaction time). Also very high usage; there isn't a fast-break lanky-arms doesn't want to take coast-to-coast, despite not having the coordination. And that early 3P stroke was obviously a fluke (hey how about that, a center who shoots 100% from the arc!).

Anyway, dodged a major bullet here. Dare I say, GSW set itself back big time by skipping on the picks who would've replaced the traditional roles that made GSW good to begin with (backup tall playmaker: Livingston and LaMelo/Hali, or a tweener or swiss-army wing like PW, Okoro or hell even Deni). A high usage center with bad instincts is a death trap. Kerr is probably sighing/acknowledging to himself, "I ****ed up by signing off on this pick."

We dodged a bullet, friends.

I wonder if they get desperate to right this ship with 1 more talent trade (that Wolves FRP is a big chip). I do think that LaVine/Otto/Temple/Thad/Lauri would each be a hell of an upgrade to anybody after Curry. Wendell and Gafford are attractive too; I don't know why they wanted a big C who'd want the ball in his hands. I would've back-tracked immediately the morning I found out Klay was out. They need a 20 mpg, blue-collar garbage man at C, that's all.

Curry is shooting a career-low 3P% cause he's getting swamped at the arc.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#71 » by gardenofsound » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:08 pm

Still pretty early to be making "bullet dodged" judgements.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#72 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:41 am

gardenofsound wrote:Still pretty early to be making "bullet dodged" judgements.


He is having a strong season as the 5th option right now. He has very high ceiling and seemingly a very high floor too. Not sure what more you what from him so far as 19 year taken as the 4th player in a supposedly weak 3 player draft. He has exceeded my expectations. The verdict still out on every single player in the draft.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#73 » by MrSparkle » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:51 am

gardenofsound wrote:Still pretty early to be making "bullet dodged" judgements.


Eh. Have you tuned into the Warriors games?

Any GS fan who is happy with Wiseman is lying to themselves. Between skipping LaMelo and the trade-down prospects, they blew this pick. Wiseman was shooting insanely well that debut week, and it was obviously unsustainable (he was almost at a 100% from the arc on decent volume; absurd fluke). And it goes back to the thing I keep saying: I don't want my big man shooting a lot of jump-shots. There is no center in the league (besides Jokic) who actually shoots better than your average guard. They are simply left WIDE-open (for a reason). Any high volume shooting center is a regular season hoax. Jokic is the one and only guy I'd be confident with a clutch 3P.

Outside of that fluke shooting, Wiseman is a very awkward, traditional center. Seriously getting Jahill Okafor vibes. People forget Okafor debuted in the NBA with 25+ PT games. Looked like a high scoring stud until Hinkie went 0-20 and was like "Oh oh - I have an awkward big man from 1990 with no defensive fundamentals and very high usage."

Wiseman is at 24% usage with a 12 PER (after a super hot 4-game shooting start). 40% from the arc, but shooting 55% from FT line. -5 OBPM. Averaging a very poor 6 RPG. 1.5 TO and 0.3 APG. He has not helped them win 1 game in the least. And he fails my eye test. I can say with confidence that PW is helping us win games and stay competitive. I don't know what his ceiling really is, but his floor? He's taking tough defensive assignments and playing excellent team defense.

I'm just saying - Wiseman is gonna be a bust. GSW screwed up their draft pick. Topped with that Oubre overpay, I'm just wondering if it's a golden rule in the NBA that after every great 5-8 year run, a FO is doomed to an awful meltdown.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#74 » by cjbulls » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:11 am

MrSparkle wrote:As the James Wiseman sample size increases, the red flags are raised. Terrible advanced stats, and the 'bad' moments have been Kwame bad (blocked by small guys, bad instincts, slow reaction time). Also very high usage; there isn't a fast-break lanky-arms doesn't want to take coast-to-coast, despite not having the coordination. And that early 3P stroke was obviously a fluke (hey how about that, a center who shoots 100% from the arc!).

Anyway, dodged a major bullet here. Dare I say, GSW set itself back big time by skipping on the picks who would've replaced the traditional roles that made GSW good to begin with (backup tall playmaker: Livingston and LaMelo/Hali, or a tweener or swiss-army wing like PW, Okoro or hell even Deni). A high usage center with bad instincts is a death trap. Kerr is probably sighing/acknowledging to himself, "I ****ed up by signing off on this pick."

We dodged a bullet, friends.

I wonder if they get desperate to right this ship with 1 more talent trade (that Wolves FRP is a big chip). I do think that LaVine/Otto/Temple/Thad/Lauri would each be a hell of an upgrade to anybody after Curry. Wendell and Gafford are attractive too; I don't know why they wanted a big C who'd want the ball in his hands. I would've back-tracked immediately the morning I found out Klay was out. They need a 20 mpg, blue-collar garbage man at C, that's all.

Curry is shooting a career-low 3P% cause he's getting swamped at the arc.


Where are you getting this from? The most basic advanced stat, PER, has Wiseman (12.4) ahead of Pat (10.4). Same for PIE. And their net O and D ratings are similar.

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1630172&VsPlayerID=1630164&sort=PIE&dir=-1

On the eye test, Wiseman looks more athletic than Pat without even accounting for height difference. I agree Wisemans instincts look poor, but I don’t know what you expect out of someone with his level of experience. The guy didn’t even get a preseason because of COVID after missing essentially all of college basketball season. It’s not like Pat has displayed any offensive instincts outside of camping at the three point line and pull up jumper.

It’s wayyyyyyyy too early to be dodging bullets in either direction.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#75 » by MrSparkle » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:33 am

cjbulls wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:As the James Wiseman sample size increases, the red flags are raised. Terrible advanced stats, and the 'bad' moments have been Kwame bad (blocked by small guys, bad instincts, slow reaction time). Also very high usage; there isn't a fast-break lanky-arms doesn't want to take coast-to-coast, despite not having the coordination. And that early 3P stroke was obviously a fluke (hey how about that, a center who shoots 100% from the arc!).

Anyway, dodged a major bullet here. Dare I say, GSW set itself back big time by skipping on the picks who would've replaced the traditional roles that made GSW good to begin with (backup tall playmaker: Livingston and LaMelo/Hali, or a tweener or swiss-army wing like PW, Okoro or hell even Deni). A high usage center with bad instincts is a death trap. Kerr is probably sighing/acknowledging to himself, "I ****ed up by signing off on this pick."

We dodged a bullet, friends.

I wonder if they get desperate to right this ship with 1 more talent trade (that Wolves FRP is a big chip). I do think that LaVine/Otto/Temple/Thad/Lauri would each be a hell of an upgrade to anybody after Curry. Wendell and Gafford are attractive too; I don't know why they wanted a big C who'd want the ball in his hands. I would've back-tracked immediately the morning I found out Klay was out. They need a 20 mpg, blue-collar garbage man at C, that's all.

Curry is shooting a career-low 3P% cause he's getting swamped at the arc.


Where are you getting this from? The most basic advanced stat, PER, has Wiseman (12.4) ahead of Pat (10.4). Same for PIE. And their net O and D ratings are similar.

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1630172&VsPlayerID=1630164&sort=PIE&dir=-1

On the eye test, Wiseman looks more athletic than Pat without even accounting for height difference. I agree Wisemans instincts look poor, but I don’t know what you expect out of someone with his level of experience. The guy didn’t even get a preseason because of COVID after missing essentially all of college basketball season. It’s not like Pat has displayed any offensive instincts outside of camping at the three point line and pull up jumper.

It’s wayyyyyyyy too early to be dodging bullets in either direction.


Patrick has good instincts. Has some weaknesses: his cross-over looks mediocre. I'm not sure how much he can improve at it. His rebounding is tentative. But he never looks like a clumsy fool.

But you don't get better at "instincts." Some lay-up attempts by Wiseman have looked like Benny Hill moments.

And of course, no stat is really going to measure PW's defensive contribution.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#76 » by madvillian » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:47 am

Wiseman looks quick laterally to me for a center but as sparkle is saying overall he's sorta underwhelming. I was sorta expecting like a young Chris Webber. He's def not that. Hardly ideal for a #1 overall. Pat looks like a good value at 4 relatively. That said Wiseman is also very young. Too early to write these guys' future.
dumbell78 wrote:Random comment....Mikal Bridges stroke is dripping right now in summer league. Carry on.


I'll go ahead and make a sig bet that Mikal is better by RPM this year than Zach.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#77 » by cjbulls » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:51 am

MrSparkle wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:As the James Wiseman sample size increases, the red flags are raised. Terrible advanced stats, and the 'bad' moments have been Kwame bad (blocked by small guys, bad instincts, slow reaction time). Also very high usage; there isn't a fast-break lanky-arms doesn't want to take coast-to-coast, despite not having the coordination. And that early 3P stroke was obviously a fluke (hey how about that, a center who shoots 100% from the arc!).

Anyway, dodged a major bullet here. Dare I say, GSW set itself back big time by skipping on the picks who would've replaced the traditional roles that made GSW good to begin with (backup tall playmaker: Livingston and LaMelo/Hali, or a tweener or swiss-army wing like PW, Okoro or hell even Deni). A high usage center with bad instincts is a death trap. Kerr is probably sighing/acknowledging to himself, "I ****ed up by signing off on this pick."

We dodged a bullet, friends.

I wonder if they get desperate to right this ship with 1 more talent trade (that Wolves FRP is a big chip). I do think that LaVine/Otto/Temple/Thad/Lauri would each be a hell of an upgrade to anybody after Curry. Wendell and Gafford are attractive too; I don't know why they wanted a big C who'd want the ball in his hands. I would've back-tracked immediately the morning I found out Klay was out. They need a 20 mpg, blue-collar garbage man at C, that's all.

Curry is shooting a career-low 3P% cause he's getting swamped at the arc.


Where are you getting this from? The most basic advanced stat, PER, has Wiseman (12.4) ahead of Pat (10.4). Same for PIE. And their net O and D ratings are similar.

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1630172&VsPlayerID=1630164&sort=PIE&dir=-1

On the eye test, Wiseman looks more athletic than Pat without even accounting for height difference. I agree Wisemans instincts look poor, but I don’t know what you expect out of someone with his level of experience. The guy didn’t even get a preseason because of COVID after missing essentially all of college basketball season. It’s not like Pat has displayed any offensive instincts outside of camping at the three point line and pull up jumper.

It’s wayyyyyyyy too early to be dodging bullets in either direction.


Patrick has good instincts. Has some weaknesses: his cross-over looks mediocre. I'm not sure how much he can improve at it. His rebounding is tentative. But he never looks like a clumsy fool.

But you don't get better at "instincts." Some lay-up attempts by Wiseman have looked like Benny Hill moments.

And of course, no stat is really going to measure PW's defensive contribution.


And other attempts have looked like Giannis moments.



So you think throwing a high schooler on an nba floor for 10 games will tell you about his instincts? Once again, he had no preseason, no training camp, no college season. You need to be more realistic.

Patrick has no concept of how to attack or get to the basket. Those are his instincts, to pull up and/or use the floater. I guess we should just assume it will never happen and trade him now.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#78 » by Clocian » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:04 am

He’s good in that area, but my biggest thing with Patrick and those shots is if he can get off a good look,” Donovan said. “He’s got the athleticism to elevate over people. But if he gets into that teeth of that defense and he’s shooting that one-handed pull-up jumper, he’s really efficient at it and I’m fine with it.


But he’s a good worker on his shot. I think he has shot the ball well. I feel comfortable when he’s open taking that shot. We really have talked to him a lot about attacking the paint and the basket. I think he’s tried to do that, and he’s developed a good floater in and around the lane. So I just want him being comfortable and taking the right shot.


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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#79 » by kodo » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:31 am

https://4ormypeople.com/athletics/2021/1/14/4mps-freshmen-five-five-impressive-rookies-taking-the-nba-by-storm

My initial reaction to Williams' Kawhi Leonard comparisons consisted of nothing more than an awkward smile and nod. My eyes are now open. The good Basketball Gods have given me sight, and I can finally see what fueled the Williams-Kawhi Hype Train. He may be raw, but the intangibles are all there. I'm obsessed with the way a young Williams slithers inside the 3-point line and knocks down pull-up jumpers -- Kawhi-like. Love the defensive intensity he brings and how he competed against Giannis, LeBron and Leonard in three of his first 11 games. And the 3-point shooting? Draining 45.8 percent of his triples as of this print. The freedom Billy Donovan's allowing the swingman to play with should only further his development. Helluva start for new management in Chicago.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#80 » by Little Nathan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:13 am

gardenofsound wrote:Still pretty early to be making "bullet dodged" judgements.


Agreed. I was low on Wiseman and he certainly hasn't changed that so far, but let's not forget that he's like 12 games into his career with almost 0 college experience last year, no summer league and a rushed training camp 2 weeks after being drafted. He's been pretty terrible for the most part (Can he please learn how to catch a basketball ffs?), but I think he also showed some interesting flashes early on.
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