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GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#661 » by Wingy » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:31 pm

sco wrote:I can't tell if PWill is slow laterally or it is just rookie lack of anticipation. I agree that it probably makes sense to have PWill play PF next season and try to nab a 2-way SF.


He looks laterally slow to me. Sorta like Deng - a very good, but not great athlete who is too stiff/rigid, and missing the fluidity you see from top-level NBA athletes. I think his athleticism has been overrated by the board at large, and that certainly limits his upside. A number of posters called out the slow lateral movement early, so it's not a complete surprise. I think hope just clouded that reality for most (inc. me).

I think he can make huge improvements during off seasons (skills & body), but he has a long way to go in a lot of departments. That stuff can come with time, and mistakes are going to happen, and that's also fine. What's most concerning is what feels like a lack of competitiveness.

You don't have to yell, or make angry/incredulous/disgusted faces (looking at you Coby...ugh). I just see one, even keel speed. After a negative play, I'd like to see an urgency and determination that he wants to make amends in a subsequent play - but nothing ever changes. Being calm, and steady is a positive, but for Pat - it's so extreme it's to the level of fault right now. Even Tim Duncan got PO'd from time to time. I've literally never seen a reaction from Pat, and that doesn't seem like it can possibly be a good thing.

Can anyone think of similar players in terms of on court demeanor? I guess Kawhi is very stoic, but we should all know the perils of that comparison. Outside of the unique freak that is Leonard - who else?
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#662 » by BahamaBull » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:11 pm

JimmyButler21 wrote:Last 2 games:
53 minutes, 2 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 steals, 1 block, 4 turnovers


Patrick "The Ghost" Williams.

Nobody could tell he is out there...no impact on the games whatsoever...Love the rook and he is still 19 and i do have high hopes for him...but boy he is probrably the most passive rookie i have ever seen.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#663 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:22 pm

DuckIII wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Not liking this answer

Read on Twitter
The age excuse is such a cop out. Newsflash, like 80% of rookies are 19 year old one and dones, PWill is not special in that regard, and plenty of 19 year old rookies have shown way more than him.

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It’s not a cop out. It’s reality and plenty of one and done rookies develop more slowly.

That would be fine if it weren't for the massive expectations that have been thrust upon him despite him not having done anything to warrant it. "Lockdown" defender who always guards the opponent's best player regardless of position since day 1, 30 MPG starter from day 1, the next Kawhi, etc. If the org viewed him as a raw prospect who will need plenty of time and patience to develop (which is clearly what he is and has been obvious since the moment we drafted him), then they shouldn't have handed him an entitlement starting spot and an entitlement role that he is not at all cut out for at this time.

They put these expectations on him immediately despite not even starting in college, and now that he's not killing it as a rookie, it's "Oh, well he's only 19 years old." It's a total cop out, and like I said, plenty of 19 year old rookies have shown much more than he has. It's not like he hasn't been given an opportunity. As a fan base we compulsively overrate our rookies to the extreme, though that's hardly exclusive to just us. We overrated Lauri, WCJ, and Coby, but they at least showed stretches of high level play as rookies to warrant that kind of optimism. PWill has done nothing like that so far. All those guys flashed for stretches of games over the course of several weeks. All we have to go off for PWill is flashes of individual plays here and there, or maybe a handful of individual games at best.

I'm not at all writing him off, far from it, but he needs to be moved to the bench and his minutes need to be cut to around 20ish max. I am not at all a fan of the way the organization has handled his development thus far. Both his development and the team as a whole would be better off with him being a focal point off the bench as opposed to a complete afterthought in the starting lineup. As fans, we need to re-adjust our expectations for him.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#664 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:36 pm

Wingy wrote:
sco wrote:I can't tell if PWill is slow laterally or it is just rookie lack of anticipation. I agree that it probably makes sense to have PWill play PF next season and try to nab a 2-way SF.


He looks laterally slow to me. Sorta like Deng - a very good, but not great athlete who is too stiff/rigid, and missing the fluidity you see from top-level NBA athletes. I think his athleticism has been overrated by the board at large, and that certainly limits his upside. A number of posters called out the slow lateral movement early, so it's not a complete surprise. I think hope just clouded that reality for most (inc. me).

Deng was a great defender and if PWill becomes even half the defender he was then he'll be a hell of player as long as his offense develops. I don't think he'll ever be the versatile, lockdown, switchable, multi-positional defender we all hoped/expected him to become because, as you and others have said, he's lacking the required lateral footspeed. PWill is pretty athletic from a jumping/explosion standpoint, but not overly so and he's hardly an elite all-around athlete.

I think he can make huge improvements during off seasons (skills & body), but he has a long way to go in a lot of departments. That stuff can come with time, and mistakes are going to happen, and that's also fine. What's most concerning is what feels like a lack of competitiveness.

You don't have to yell, or make angry/incredulous/disgusted faces (looking at you Coby...ugh). I just see one, even keel speed. After a negative play, I'd like to see an urgency and determination that he wants to make amends in a subsequent play - but nothing ever changes. Being calm, and steady is a positive, but for Pat - it's so extreme it's to the level of fault right now. Even Tim Duncan got PO'd from time to time. I've literally never seen a reaction from Pat, and that doesn't seem like it can possibly be a good thing.

It's interesting you bring up Deng, because now that I think about it, I could see PWill ending up as a moderately more athletic but moderately worse defensive version of Deng. However, Deng had passion and fire. It wasn't always obvious at times since he wasn't the loud, vocal, ra ra type like Noah and Gibson, and people questioned his commitment when he dealt with injuries, but PWill has yet to show that kind of competitiveness.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#665 » by Wingy » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:45 am

GoBlue72391 wrote:It's interesting you bring up Deng, because now that I think about it, I could see PWill ending up as a moderately more athletic but moderately worse defensive version of Deng. However, Deng had passion and fire. It wasn't always obvious at times since he wasn't the loud, vocal, ra ra type like Noah and Gibson, and people questioned his commitment when he dealt with injuries, but PWill has yet to show that kind of competitiveness.


I hadn’t thought of it before, but I’d WAG that might be an approximate ceiling in terms of general level of player w/some similarities. I’d also guess they would diverge along the same lines as you’re thinking. Deng the better defender, but PWill looks like he has more offensive upside. Agreed there was no doubt you could see Deng’s competitiveness in his play. He’s basically a Noah compared to Williams. That’s what is bothersome. That’s something you have, or you don’t.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#666 » by ChiKago » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:12 pm

He plays like he pops a few melatonin before each game. Just kinda chills. If a rebound bounces his way he may get it it but other than that he’s usually in the corner, out of the way from the action. It’s probably by design but as a starter, this deep into the season it’s not a good sign.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#667 » by DuckIII » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:34 pm

I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#668 » by Wingy » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:20 am

DuckIII wrote:I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.


Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#669 » by DASMACKDOWN » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:44 am

I was told I need to be patient with Pat, and I agree.

Get this...

Isaac Okoro #5 pick in the draft

8.2pts 2.8rebs 1.8asts 42%fg 30% 3ptrs 31.8mins 7.2PER Started every game this season.

So maybe Pat isnt an anomaly verses his peers.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#670 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:06 am

Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.


Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.


I have a feeling Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antentekumpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gobert might disagree with you, since Mr. Patrick Williams is outscoring all of them as rookies:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2012&player_id3=butleji01&p3yrfrom=2012&player_id4=antetgi01&p4yrfrom=2014&player_id5=goberru01&p5yrfrom=2014&player_id6=westbru01&p6yrfrom=2009
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#671 » by DuckIII » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:12 am

Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.


Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.


No. I just have a mental concern that I thought would have lessened by now. But it’s grown.

My expectation is the same. My confidence it will be achieved has diminished.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#672 » by Wingy » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:49 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.


Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.


I have a feeling Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antentekumpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gobert might disagree with you, since Mr. Patrick Williams is outscoring all of them as rookies:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2012&player_id3=butleji01&p3yrfrom=2012&player_id4=antetgi01&p4yrfrom=2014&player_id5=goberru01&p5yrfrom=2014&player_id6=westbru01&p6yrfrom=2009


I obviously hope he turns out great, and I'm going to remain positive on his future as a plus player regardless of what happens the rest of this season. There's a big difference between Pat, and that list though. All of those guys except for Jimmy have absolutely elite NBA physical traits, and Jimmy's the exception to all the rules. There's a lot more to poke against in those comparisons, but it's not worth it. I like Pat, and he has lots of promise. However, I think our hope has overinflated that promise.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#673 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:25 am

He’s been quiet, but his highs have shown potential. That midrange jumper could become automatic.

His perimeter defense has been disappointing. I see him leaning more as a PF, but I’m fine with developing him at SF... cause why not? We need him at multiple spots.

I see the tools to become an all-star, but I don’t see the ‘connections.’ The eye-test tells me he’s very mechanical and tentative. Let’s be honest; stars are never shy with the ball, even if the talent is not there yet. On the other hand, he has many good traits. I actually like that he doesn’t force garbage, but it is a bummer his handles are mediocre. His man to man coverage has been poor, but he’s very attentive. I liked his awareness early in the season; he hit the wall early and has been processing a lot.

I know better than to expect a big year 2 jump. Hope the summer fluff pieces don’t come out, cause that’ll be a sign we’re placing unreal expectations. I prefer he quietly improves his defensive mechanics and 3P shot, cause he needs to become a + 3D guy before dreaming of being a star. Right now his defense is in the minus, so that’s not on par with Isaac or Thybulle.

But looking at the draft again, LaMelo and Edwards look like the real deal, and despite some irrational/over-the-top lament for Haliburton, Patrick remains my preferred ‘project’ pick after those two. Not sure what Hali’s ceiling is, and Okongwu/Wiseman/Okoro have similarly struggled while having worse all-around skills.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#674 » by GoBlue72391 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:05 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:I was told I need to be patient with Pat, and I agree.

Get this...

Isaac Okoro #5 pick in the draft

8.2pts 2.8rebs 1.8asts 42%fg 30% 3ptrs 31.8mins 7.2PER Started every game this season.

So maybe Pat isnt an anomaly verses his peers.

The difference between them is that almost every Bulls fan drank the kool-aid and immediately anointed PWill the next Kawhi based off nothing other than a slightly similar manner in which they carry themselves on the court. The Bulls PR team and Stacey King definitely contributed to this, as did that summer highlight tape of him balling with NBA players before he was drafted.

Now I haven't been keeping up with the Cavs or their fanbase, but I seriously doubt their expectations for Okoro are anywhere near as high as ours is/was for PWill. Also, the Cavs are tanking so it makes perfect sense to start their #5 pick every game for development purposes. We're (supposedly) trying to win, and giving entitlement/development minutes to our #4 pick goes against the whole "winning" goal.

The bad thing is that the bar has already been set so damn high, to almost unreachable levels, that short of becoming a Kawhi-esque superstar, the fanbase at large will be disappointed in the player PWill becomes. We're already seeing it happen with Lauri. Obviously PWill does have a high ceiling, but having a high ceiling doesn't mean he's likely to reach it. Right now he's looking a lot more like Marvin Williams than Kawhi Leonard. That's not necessarily a bad thing for a #4 pick in a weak draft. Marvin had a 15 year career as a solid role player, but to the fanbase that will be a utter disappointment and PWill will be regarded as a bust.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#675 » by GoBlue72391 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:07 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.


Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.


I have a feeling Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antentekumpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gobert might disagree with you, since Mr. Patrick Williams is outscoring all of them as rookies:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2012&player_id3=butleji01&p3yrfrom=2012&player_id4=antetgi01&p4yrfrom=2014&player_id5=goberru01&p5yrfrom=2014&player_id6=westbru01&p6yrfrom=2009

1. PWill got more playing time as a rookie than they did

2. Gobert is not a scorer

3. It's a lot easier to score today than it was back in 2011-2013
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#676 » by GoBlue72391 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:14 am

MrSparkle wrote:He’s been quiet, but his highs have shown potential.

My biggest concern is that Lauri, WCJ, and Coby all showed more as rookies than PWill has. A lot more. For extended lengths of time, consisting of several weeks or more of high level play. PWill has done nothing of the sort. We have just a handful of individual games or even individual plays to base PWill's "superstar" potential on.

Of those four, PWill has the best combination of raw athleticism and tools, but he's also accomplished the least as a rookie even though he's had more of an opportunity than all of them except Lauri.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#677 » by DASMACKDOWN » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:16 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:He’s been quiet, but his highs have shown potential.

My biggest concern is that Lauri, WCJ, and Coby all showed more as rookies than PWill has. A lot more. For extended lengths of time, consisting of several weeks or more of high level play. PWill has done nothing of the sort. We have just a handful of individual games or even individual plays to base PWill's "superstar" potential on.


You can counter-argue that it doesn't actually matter as well

I said it several months back that ultimately no one will remember or care what you did in your rookie year. It doesnt actually have any significance to the players long term health.

Look at Lauri, Dennis Smith Jr and Josh Jackson

That is All rookie 1st team, 2nd team and 2nd team respectively.

Guess what, no one cares. Because Lauri has sort of sputtered since then. And Dennis Smith Jr and Josh Jackson have been cut and traded a few times. They both are barely hanging on to the NBA and probably have one foot in the China leagues soon.

---

The that I finally realize is that the issue actually isnt with Pat. Its with my fandom with the Bulls. The fan in me wants these last 4 years to be behind us and getting us into a playoff era of basketball again. The patience in watching players like Coby and Pat start to wane because we want results NOW. That is basically an irrational view but thats what fans do at times.

When you calm down, and do research on other teams and players, you actually see how Pat is doing absolutely fine. I can show yo usome examples.

Mikal Bridges (PHX) 8.3pts 3.2rebs 2.1 asts 29.5mins 10.8 PER
Deandre Hunter (ATL) 12.3 pts 4.5rebs 1.8asts 32mins 8.6 PER
Cam Reddish (ATL) 10.5pts 3.7rebs 1.5 asts 26.7mins 9 PER

Those are a few I found that have similar minutes to Pat in their rookie years. And other than Cam Reddish, the others were significantly older as rookies. So Pat isnt some bum in comparison to others. It just feels that way because we want him to be the 4th year version of himself right now.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#678 » by DuckIII » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:39 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:He’s been quiet, but his highs have shown potential.

My biggest concern is that Lauri, WCJ, and Coby all showed more as rookies than PWill has. A lot more. For extended lengths of time, consisting of several weeks or more of high level play. PWill has done nothing of the sort. We have just a handful of individual games or even individual plays to base PWill's "superstar" potential on.

Of those four, PWill has the best combination of raw athleticism and tools, but he's also accomplished the least as a rookie even though he's had more of an opportunity than all of them except Lauri.


It appears you are using “showed more” and “accomplished” to be the same thing in this post. Which is fine of course.

When I think of “showed” I think of demonstrated potential. By my definition, Williams has shown more than any Bulls rookie since Rose. His combination of physical traits and demonstrated skills is high end. Compared to Lauri, WCJ and Coby it’s not even close.

Lauri had some incredible stretches of production as a rookie but he never demonstrated the breadth of skills Williams has and other than his height his physical traits were a little rigid. WCJ was always somewhat pedestrian athletically for a center and had a smaller skill set. Similarly, while Coby demonstrated an excellent scoring skill set (albeit wildly erratic), his athletic traits are not remarkable and never have been (it’s one of the reasons I was opposed to drafting him in the first place - raw point guard skills coupled with mediocre upside physical traits).

Back to Williams, from all accounts he has a strong work ethic. The issue, and I was already concerned about it months ago and that has done nothing but ramp up, is what’s between the ears and in his chest? Is he a winner? Is he confident? Will he force the issue? How will he evolve in those areas? Is he actually undead? Sometimes I wonder.

That’s the concern. And it’s a big one. Even for a 19 year old rookie.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#679 » by DuckIII » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:52 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:He’s been quiet, but his highs have shown potential.

My biggest concern is that Lauri, WCJ, and Coby all showed more as rookies than PWill has. A lot more. For extended lengths of time, consisting of several weeks or more of high level play. PWill has done nothing of the sort. We have just a handful of individual games or even individual plays to base PWill's "superstar" potential on.


You can counter-argue that it doesn't actually matter as well

I said it several months back that ultimately no one will remember or care what you did in your rookie year. It doesnt actually have any significance to the players long term health.

Look at Lauri, Dennis Smith Jr and Josh Jackson

That is All rookie 1st team, 2nd team and 2nd team respectively.

Guess what, no one cares. Because Lauri has sort of sputtered since then. And Dennis Smith Jr and Josh Jackson have been cut and traded a few times. They both are barely hanging on to the NBA and probably have one foot in the China leagues soon.

---

The that I finally realize is that the issue actually isnt with Pat. Its with my fandom with the Bulls. The fan in me wants these last 4 years to be behind us and getting us into a playoff era of basketball again. The patience in watching players like Coby and Pat start to wane because we want results NOW. That is basically an irrational view but thats what fans do at times.

When you calm down, and do research on other teams and players, you actually see how Pat is doing absolutely fine. I can show yo usome examples.

Mikal Bridges (PHX) 8.3pts 3.2rebs 2.1 asts 29.5mins 10.8 PER
Deandre Hunter (ATL) 12.3 pts 4.5rebs 1.8asts 32mins 8.6 PER
Cam Reddish (ATL) 10.5pts 3.7rebs 1.5 asts 26.7mins 9 PER

Those are a few I found that have similar minutes to Pat in their rookie years. And other than Cam Reddish, the others were significantly older as rookies. So Pat isnt some bum in comparison to others. It just feels that way because we want him to be the 4th year version of himself right now.


Great post. And as you note it goes both ways. Some guys start slow and evolve down the road. Some guys start out like gang busters and diminish.

Far more strongly than I feel about Williams, I came to consider Lauri an untouchable prospect by the end of his rookie season. This February, prior to the deadline which has changed my position on asset management, I was perfectly content to let Lauri walk for nothing in order to preserve the cap space.

And I wouldn’t rule out Lauri still having an excellent NBA career if he ends up in the right situation.

NBA careers go every direction there is.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#680 » by Wingy » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:13 pm

DuckIII wrote:Back to Williams, from all accounts he has a strong work ethic. The issue, and I was already concerned about it months ago and that has done nothing but ramp up, is what’s between the ears and in his chest? Is he a winner? Is he confident? Will he force the issue? How will he evolve in those areas? Is he actually undead? Sometimes I wonder.

That’s the concern. And it’s a big one. Even for a 19 year old rookie.


First, nod to Smackdown, and GoBlue...it's totally our expectations have been through the roof because we want so badly for him to succeed, and be a huge part of a contending Bulls team.

I'm still on the bandwagon because we've seen many good flashes, and all accessible evidence tells us he's a worker. But yeah, the intangibles are worrisome...no idea if he's going to evolve there, and that's where we'll need him to grow, probably more so than his body/skills (which I think will both advance well w/time). I will say...I can't remember what game it was...but I saw a play recently for the first time I can recall where he actually showed some frustration at a negative play he made. There is evidence he's not a robot.

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