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GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p 

Post#681 » by sco » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 pm

Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Back to Williams, from all accounts he has a strong work ethic. The issue, and I was already concerned about it months ago and that has done nothing but ramp up, is what’s between the ears and in his chest? Is he a winner? Is he confident? Will he force the issue? How will he evolve in those areas? Is he actually undead? Sometimes I wonder.

That’s the concern. And it’s a big one. Even for a 19 year old rookie.


First, nod to Smackdown, and GoBlue...it's totally our expectations have been through the roof because we want so badly for him to succeed, and be a huge part of a contending Bulls team.

I'm still on the bandwagon because we've seen many good flashes, and all accessible evidence tells us he's a worker. But yeah, the intangibles are worrisome...no idea if he's going to evolve there, and that's where we'll need him to grow, probably more so than his body/skills (which I think will both advance well w/time). I will say...I can't remember what game it was...but I saw a play recently for the first time I can recall where he actually showed some frustration at a negative play he made. There is evidence he's not a robot.

After McDermott I started taking summer league, preseason and early season performance with a grain of salt. I was encouraged by Willliams' early highlights, but refused to get too high on him. He may still become very good or another Snell. Like you guys said, it will come down to his work and mental ability/toughness to get there.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#682 » by gardenofsound » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:08 pm

Honestly I want him out there playing a bit more out of control and making more mistakes. What I've seen on the court is someone who just doesn't seem to take many chances. Playing within yourself is great when you're already established and/or your team is already well established and believes itself a contender.

Player development is just like any other: you need to take chances and push your boundaries. I'm not saying Patrick should be the starting point guard, but I do want to see him put the ball on the floor more to take guys off the dribble and create for himself. Even if it causes some turnovers.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#683 » by ZOMG » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:38 am

This guy is just an awful defender.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#684 » by CobyWhite0 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:57 am

ZOMG wrote:This guy is just an awful defender.


I've only been reading this board for about a year and a half, but this is most definitely the worst take I have ever read.

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#685 » by sco » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:39 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
ZOMG wrote:This guy is just an awful defender.


I've only been reading this board for about a year and a half, but this is most definitely the worst take I have ever read.

It doesn't even make ZOMG's top 10!

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#686 » by Stratmaster » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:55 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Wingy wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I’ve got the nickname I think. At least for his rookie season. Patrick “Milk Carton” Williams.


Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.


I have a feeling Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antentekumpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gobert might disagree with you, since Mr. Patrick Williams is outscoring all of them as rookies:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2012&player_id3=butleji01&p3yrfrom=2012&player_id4=antetgi01&p4yrfrom=2014&player_id5=goberru01&p5yrfrom=2014&player_id6=westbru01&p6yrfrom=2009
Butler played 8 mpg his rookie season and started 0 games.

Kawhi played 24 minutes and started 39 games.

Gobert played 9.6 mpg and started 0 games.

Even Giannis only played 25 mpg and only started 23 games.

There is a reason you don't hand 19 year olds starting jobs. I don't think anyone (at least not me) is saying PWill can't possibly be a great player.

I think most the complaints (at least mine) are that he shouldn't be starting, never should have been starting, and never should have been playing 30mpg. From the way his minutes are declining it appears hardheaded Billy is finally coming to the same conclusion.

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#687 » by DuckIII » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:11 pm

I don’t think Donovan makes that many decisions on his own. I can’t prove it of course, but I get the sense AK has a tremendous amount of say with regard to rotations. And I expect it to remain that way until he gets the roster closer to what he envisions.

It’s a new dynamic. I think AK and BD plan all this stuff and make these decisions together.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#688 » by CobyWhite0 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:56 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
Wingy wrote:
Have you lowered expectations for his ceiling yet? If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now. He can still be a fine player, and a strong piece for us...but star? Nah.


I have a feeling Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antentekumpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gobert might disagree with you, since Mr. Patrick Williams is outscoring all of them as rookies:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2012&player_id3=butleji01&p3yrfrom=2012&player_id4=antetgi01&p4yrfrom=2014&player_id5=goberru01&p5yrfrom=2014&player_id6=westbru01&p6yrfrom=2009
Butler played 8 mpg his rookie season and started 0 games.

Kawhi played 24 minutes and started 39 games.

Gobert played 9.6 mpg and started 0 games.

Even Giannis only played 25 mpg and only started 23 games.

There is a reason you don't hand 19 year olds starting jobs. I don't think anyone (at least not me) is saying PWill can't possibly be a great player.


Wingy literally just did it, in the post I replied to.

I think most the complaints (at least mine) are that he shouldn't be starting, never should have been starting, and never should have been playing 30mpg. From the way his minutes are declining it appears hardheaded Billy is finally coming to the same conclusion.

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Thanks for re-iterating my point :D

Which actually had very little to do with Mr. Patrick Williams specifically - I was just pointing out that "If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now" is false. Kawhi, Gobert, Jimmy and Giannis didn't show their future superstardom as rookies, but it didn't stop them from becoming superstars.

And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens of superstars in NBA history who didn't show future superstardom through their first 60 NBA games.

I don't have a problem with the way Mr. Patrick Williams has been used, because it seems obvious to me that AKME view him as main foundation piece going forward. And I would expect that as the season winds down and "every game is a playoff game", his minutes will go down as veterans get more minutes.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#689 » by DJhitek » Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:03 pm

It’s obvious that Patrick just isn’t ready to contribute to winning basketball. I know some have stated he shouldn’t start, but his recent play hasn’t justified playing him more than 10 minutes a game.

My hope is that his age and physical talents rise above his passiveness but I’m not entirely sure if anyone this passive has ever made turned into a star.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#690 » by jordanwilliams6 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:58 pm

DJhitek wrote:It’s obvious that Patrick just isn’t ready to contribute to winning basketball. I know some have stated he shouldn’t start, but his recent play hasn’t justified playing him more than 10 minutes a game.

My hope is that his age and physical talents rise above his passiveness but I’m not entirely sure if anyone this passive has ever made turned into a star.

I can't remember Kawhi as a rookie but was he this passive, or was it just a case of a rookie playing a smaller role on a great team? If Pat was surrounded by genuinely good players top to bottom he'd look a lot better and people wouldn't be complaining about passiveness.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#691 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:58 pm

DJhitek wrote:It’s obvious that Patrick just isn’t ready to contribute to winning basketball. I know some have stated he shouldn’t start, but his recent play hasn’t justified playing him more than 10 minutes a game.

My hope is that his age and physical talents rise above his passiveness but I’m not entirely sure if anyone this passive has ever made turned into a star.

Mindset is often the most important trait when determining a player's overall potential. It can be the difference between a player achieving stardom or settling into a career as a role player. Skills, athleticism, build, etc. are obviously very important, but they can only take a player so far. The opposite is of course true as well. There's so many players who had all the talent, skills, athleticism, tools, and measurables to be great but were merely good because they lacked the necessary mindset to take them to the next level.

Given that, I think I'd rather have a hyper aggressive player who doesn't quite have the ideal measurements and needs to round out his skills as opposed to a hyper passive player who has all the prototypical tools and skills. It's far more likely for that aggressive player to improve by working on his skills and weak points than it is for that passive player to eventually become aggressive and confident. The former could conceivably develop into an all star or better while the latter will always be limited to a ceiling of a role player. Unless he breaks out of his passive mindset.

Aggression/passiveness typically goes beyond basketball and is more of an overall personality trait and often reflects itself in a player's off the court demeanor and interactions. That certainly applies to what we've seen from PWill so far, both on and off court. He's not even the only Bull who that applies to. Lauri is in the same boat. The difference is that we've actually seen flashes of aggression and confidence from Lauri, even for extended lengths of time, no matter how fleeting it turns out to be in the end. We really haven't seen much of that at all from PWill so far, other than maybe a play here or a game there. Certainly not for any extended period of time.

Hoping for a player to go from passive and timid to aggressive and confident is more or less a lost cause because while it could happen and has happened, it usually doesn't and probably won't, because what you're asking for is a player to essentially change their entire personality. That just doesn't happen very often, whether we're talking about a pro basketball player or just an average Joe. It could though, which is what makes PWill such a polarizing player given his otherwise promising traits.

It is by far my biggest concern for PWill (and Lauri for that matter). Looking at him from a purely tangible perspective (athleticism, tools, skills, build, etc.), it's very easy to see why so many think the sky is the limit for PWill, but when you watch him on the court it's just as easy to see why so many think he'll never be anything more than a role player.

PWill seems to be a hard worker with a good head on his shoulders, but he will ultimately only go as far as his mindset will let him.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#692 » by DJhitek » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:10 pm

I remember Leonard being an absolute demon defensively on every possession. His passiveness offensively is a fair point but he was the lead dog in college so I think there were flashes. I’m not sure about Pat, but we shall see.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#693 » by Stratmaster » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:25 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
I have a feeling Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antentekumpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gobert might disagree with you, since Mr. Patrick Williams is outscoring all of them as rookies:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2012&player_id3=butleji01&p3yrfrom=2012&player_id4=antetgi01&p4yrfrom=2014&player_id5=goberru01&p5yrfrom=2014&player_id6=westbru01&p6yrfrom=2009
Butler played 8 mpg his rookie season and started 0 games.

Kawhi played 24 minutes and started 39 games.

Gobert played 9.6 mpg and started 0 games.

Even Giannis only played 25 mpg and only started 23 games.

There is a reason you don't hand 19 year olds starting jobs. I don't think anyone (at least not me) is saying PWill can't possibly be a great player.


Wingy literally just did it, in the post I replied to.

I think most the complaints (at least mine) are that he shouldn't be starting, never should have been starting, and never should have been playing 30mpg. From the way his minutes are declining it appears hardheaded Billy is finally coming to the same conclusion.

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Thanks for re-iterating my point :D

Which actually had very little to do with Mr. Patrick Williams specifically - I was just pointing out that "If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now" is false. Kawhi, Gobert, Jimmy and Giannis didn't show their future superstardom as rookies, but it didn't stop them from becoming superstars.

And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens of superstars in NBA history who didn't show future superstardom through their first 60 NBA games.

I don't have a problem with the way Mr. Patrick Williams has been used, because it seems obvious to me that AKME view him as main foundation piece going forward. And I would expect that as the season winds down and "every game is a playoff game", his minutes will go down as veterans get more minutes.
No. You are moving the goalposts. Your point was based on Pwill outscoring those players. But it is not valid, because he had more opportunity to score and more time on the court than any other player you mentioned did in their rookie year.

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#694 » by FriedRise » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:50 am

PW has the best defensive rating among all rookies (minimum 2000 minutes played per 82 games).

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-defensive-rating-nba-rookies

He’ll get better over time.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#695 » by DuckIII » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:28 pm

FriedRise wrote:PW has the best defensive rating among all rookies (minimum 2000 minutes played per 82 games).

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-defensive-rating-nba-rookies

He’ll get better over time.


Being a broken record, he’s got the physical traits and skills to be a complete player. I don’t just mean a two way player, I mean a complete player who can defend multiple positions on ball, get in passing lanes, block shots, shoot threes, finish at the rim, be an open court powerhouse, hit the mid range, post up, and pass with vision and timing.

Basically like a Jimmy Butler type of player in completeness. Physically all of these things are there for him to develop. He’s special.

Mentally? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything like it from someone with this much ability. Even from a rookie. Plenty of time yet to fire the engines, but damn.

Can anyone think of a comp?

Eddy Curry came to mind, not from a completeness stand point but from a passive with immense talent standpoint. But there were reg flags all along that Curry didn’t really like basketball and had a poor work ethic.

The reports on Williams are the opposite. He’s from a basketball family, is a video studying fiend, who spends his downtime watching the NBA and WNBA, and is a tireless worker in the gym. All which make his Milk Carton performances all that much harder to understand.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#696 » by sco » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:32 pm

DuckIII wrote:
FriedRise wrote:PW has the best defensive rating among all rookies (minimum 2000 minutes played per 82 games).

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-defensive-rating-nba-rookies

He’ll get better over time.


Being a broken record, he’s got the physical traits and skills to be a complete player. I don’t just mean a two way player, I mean a complete player who can defend multiple positions on ball, get in passing lanes, block shots, shoot threes, finish at the rim, be an open court powerhouse, hit the mid range, post up, and pass with vision and timing.

Basically like a Jimmy Butler type of player in completeness. Physically all of these things are there for him to develop. He’s special.

Mentally? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything like if from someone with this much ability. Even from a rookie. Plenty of time to fire the engines, but damn.

He needs to watch that Under Armour TV Commercial with that girl with Imposter Syndrome.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#697 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:22 pm

FriedRise wrote:PW has the best defensive rating among all rookies (minimum 2000 minutes played per 82 games).

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-defensive-rating-nba-rookies

He’ll get better over time.

I mean I guess that's good, but I never really put much weight into defensive statistics and LaMelo actually has a better defensive rating at 110.1 but I guess he hasn't played enough games to qualify. In any case, the eye test conflicts with the notion that PWill is a defensive force, though I don't think that's what that stat is saying, though it will undoubtedly be interpreted that way by many. It's less a point of pride for PWill and more of an indictment on how bad this rookie class has been defensively.

To put this in perspective, Zach and Lauri have a reputation for being well below average defenders and yet their defensive ratings are barely worse than PWill's at 113.7 and 113.6 respectively. Those would be good enough for 3rd place amongst rookies. Even Coby, who I think it's fair to say is a downright dreadful defender at this point in his career, isn't too far behind PWill either with a 114.9, which would be 5th best amongst rookies.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#698 » by Wingy » Sun May 2, 2021 12:29 pm

That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#699 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 12:47 pm

Wingy wrote:That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”


I’d like to get all excited but he’s had aggressive games before only to be followed up by 6-7 Milk Carton games.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#700 » by sco » Sun May 2, 2021 1:44 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Wingy wrote:That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”


I’d like to get all excited but he’s had aggressive games before only to be followed up by 6-7 Milk Carton games.

Wow we went from 7 to 13 shots - why? because our 2 biggest shot takers were out. The whole HS PG thing, I see now. He really has a pass-first mentality, and his passes are nearly on a Thad-level. Even if we could "change his mentality", it will take time. Honestly, I'd like to try him more as a point-forward before I messed with that.
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