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GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#701 » by Wingy » Sun May 2, 2021 2:08 pm

sco wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Wingy wrote:That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”


I’d like to get all excited but he’s had aggressive games before only to be followed up by 6-7 Milk Carton games.

Wow we went from 7 to 13 shots - why? because our 2 biggest shot takers were out. The whole HS PG thing, I see now. He really has a pass-first mentality, and his passes are nearly on a Thad-level. Even if we could "change his mentality", it will take time. Honestly, I'd like to try him more as a point-forward before I messed with that.


It’s related I’m sure, but it’s more than that. This was a longer drought for offense in terms of milk carton. About 17 games since he has taken even double digit FGAs.

The last two times before that? Vuc’s 2nd, and 3rd games as a Bull when we were doing a lot of awkward force feeding, and had Zach. Goes to show a lot of it is just simply Pat.

While it won’t happen, wish at this point he could go to the bench, and be told he’s the top option for that unit, and he needs to score/assist. Sure there will be some bad results, but think there would be plenty of confidence building games too. Alas, I know his role won’t actually change this late barring prolonged Vuc absence, and continued Zach protocols...but that would be nice.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#702 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 2:21 pm

sco wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Wingy wrote:That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”


I’d like to get all excited but he’s had aggressive games before only to be followed up by 6-7 Milk Carton games.

Wow we went from 7 to 13 shots - why? because our 2 biggest shot takers were out. The whole HS PG thing, I see now. He really has a pass-first mentality, and his passes are nearly on a Thad-level. Even if we could "change his mentality", it will take time. Honestly, I'd like to try him more as a point-forward before I messed with that.


I don’t think he showed one single new thing last night. And 13 shots still isn’t much in 33 minutes. He actually only had the 4th highest shot rate and barely that, since he only took one more shot than Thad in an equal 33 minutes.

I also don’t blame Zach or Vuc, at all, for how Williams plays. And I am far more a “fanboy” of Pat than I am of either of those guys and am an open critic of AK for even trading for Vuc in the first place. It’s always been “a thing” on this board to blame the failings of our favorites on others. It’s not accurate as to Pat, and it’s almost never been accurate as to anyone.

Anyway, not trying to go in on your post. Just taking this opportunity to express a variety of views that seem pertinent following Williams’ game last night.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#703 » by chefo » Sun May 2, 2021 2:40 pm

I wrote it somewhere on the previous pages... but the way they chose to play him this season just makes no sense whatsoever. What's the darn purpose of playing a 19-year old heavy minutes with the starters, with him getting 25 touches a game (1/3 of the touches of pre-demotion Coby, Zach and Vuc)? What's the point of letting him get embarrassed chasing star 2's and 3's around screens all game?

Play him 20 min off the bench as the a point forward or PG or whatever, and make him be the designated aggressor that entire time and shoot it 12 times in his minutes. At least you can see what you got.

What they did resulted in a guy that most games looks as timid as anybody who ever donned an NBA jersey. It shouldn't take Vuc and Zach being out for him to go pedal-to-the-metal for a game. That's what he should have been doing from game 1... from the bench.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#704 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 3:11 pm

chefo wrote:I wrote it somewhere on the previous pages... but the way they chose to play him this season just makes no sense whatsoever. What's the darn purpose of playing a 19-year old heavy minutes with the starters, with him getting 25 touches a game (1/3 of the touches of pre-demotion Coby, Zach and Vuc)? What's the point of letting him get embarrassed chasing star 2's and 3's around screens all game?

Play him 20 min off the bench as the a point forward or PG or whatever, and make him be the designated aggressor that entire time and shoot it 12 times in his minutes. At least you can see what you got.

What they did resulted in a guy that most games looks as timid as anybody who ever donned an NBA jersey. It shouldn't take Vuc and Zach being out for him to go pedal-to-the-metal for a game. That's what he should have been doing from game 1... from the bench.


I’d said this since the first game of the season: it’s unconventional but that doesn’t make it wrong. At least for Williams himself. We’ll need to see how he evolves.

The better argument is that since AK and ownership is making such extreme “win now” transactions with the roster, would it have been better for the team (as opposed to Williams) to have him develop from the bench in favor of a more NBA ready player. Though the problem with that is who was the replacement supposed to be? Our small forwards stink.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#705 » by dougthonus » Sun May 2, 2021 4:18 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:Which actually had very little to do with Mr. Patrick Williams specifically - I was just pointing out that "If he was going to be a superstar, we would’ve seen something by now" is false. Kawhi, Gobert, Jimmy and Giannis didn't show their future superstardom as rookies, but it didn't stop them from becoming superstars.

And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens of superstars in NBA history who didn't show future superstardom through their first 60 NBA games.

I don't have a problem with the way Mr. Patrick Williams has been used, because it seems obvious to me that AKME view him as main foundation piece going forward. And I would expect that as the season winds down and "every game is a playoff game", his minutes will go down as veterans get more minutes.


For every player that became a superstar after not looking like one through 60 games, there are probably 100 that didn't look like a superstar and went somewhere between role player and washing out of the league all together.

When looking through a haystack, you may find needles, but you're more likely to find hay.

I'm not going to say he couldn't become one, because you just never know, but there's not really much relevant reason to believe he will either.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#706 » by Bulliever2020 » Sun May 2, 2021 4:35 pm

Kid will be an allstar by year 4. Make it your sig. Do whatever. It's going to happen.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#707 » by Ice Man » Sun May 2, 2021 5:37 pm

About half the arguments for "these guys weren't stars as rookies" work as comparisons for Pat -- the ones wh0 weren't OMGs on the eye test. Jimmy, Kawhi, Jaylen ... people weren't talking about them being future superstars as rookies partly because they weren't doing superstar things, and partly because they didn't jump off the TV screen.

On the other hand, Giannis, Gobert, AD, and Pippen, to name four, had buzz around them from Day 1. Simply because of how they looked. I wouldn't put them in the same category as Patrick. Yeah he's an excellent athlete. So are Butler, Brown, and Leonard. But he's not in the Giannis et al category of athlete.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#708 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:21 pm

Wingy wrote:That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”

I doubt it took until the last 10 games of the season for his coaches/teammates to tell him to be more aggressive. It likely had more to do with Zach and Vuch not playing combined with the Hawks playing with a notable indifference in the first half. Hopefully it's a sign of things to come, but I'll need to see it more to think this is his new normal.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#709 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:27 pm

DuckIII wrote:
chefo wrote:I wrote it somewhere on the previous pages... but the way they chose to play him this season just makes no sense whatsoever. What's the darn purpose of playing a 19-year old heavy minutes with the starters, with him getting 25 touches a game (1/3 of the touches of pre-demotion Coby, Zach and Vuc)? What's the point of letting him get embarrassed chasing star 2's and 3's around screens all game?

Play him 20 min off the bench as the a point forward or PG or whatever, and make him be the designated aggressor that entire time and shoot it 12 times in his minutes. At least you can see what you got.

What they did resulted in a guy that most games looks as timid as anybody who ever donned an NBA jersey. It shouldn't take Vuc and Zach being out for him to go pedal-to-the-metal for a game. That's what he should have been doing from game 1... from the bench.


I’d said this since the first game of the season: it’s unconventional but that doesn’t make it wrong. At least for Williams himself. We’ll need to see how he evolves.

The better argument is that since AK and ownership is making such extreme “win now” transactions with the roster, would it have been better for the team (as opposed to Williams) to have him develop from the bench in favor of a more NBA ready player. Though the problem with that is who was the replacement supposed to be? Our small forwards stink.

I think it would have been better for PWill's development and the team as a whole to use him as a 20 minute top 3 option off the bench as opposed to the 30 minute starter who's a distant 5th option that we've used him as this season.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#710 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:28 pm

Bulliever2020 wrote:Kid will be an allstar by year 4. Make it your sig. Do whatever. It's going to happen.

Just like Lauri, WCJ, and Coby.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#711 » by Bulliever2020 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:34 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
Bulliever2020 wrote:Kid will be an allstar by year 4. Make it your sig. Do whatever. It's going to happen.

Just like Lauri, WCJ, and Coby.


I disliked every one of those picks and have never claimed any would become all stars so that is surely not a reference to a previous post I have made.

I have seen enough of Patrick to see he possesses all the raw talent needed to become a force in this league. All we have heard about his work ethic makes me believe he will maximize the gifts he has been given. And the Bulls have already shown they will do everything they can to give him opportunities to grow into that player.

You clearly don't believe he will become that guy. That's your opinion. Mine is that he will. We'll see who ends up right in a few years.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#712 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:39 pm

Bulliever2020 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
Bulliever2020 wrote:Kid will be an allstar by year 4. Make it your sig. Do whatever. It's going to happen.

Just like Lauri, WCJ, and Coby.


I disliked every one of those picks and have never claimed any would become all stars so that is surely not a reference to a previous post I have made.

I have seen enough of Patrick to see he possesses all the raw talent needed to become a force in this league. All we have heard about his work ethic makes me believe he will maximize the gifts he has been given. And the Bulls have already shown they will do everything they can to give him opportunities to grow into that player.

You clearly don't believe he will become that guy. That's your opinion. Mine is that he will. We'll see who ends up right in a few years.

I'm not referring to you specifically, just the general sentiment that those guys were also destined for stardom in the near future. You had baby Dirk, Al Horford 2.0, and the next Gilbert Arenas. Now we have baby Kawhi who has provided significantly less on-court production than our three #7 picks did as rookies. I never said he won't become that guy, but I'm not going to believe he will until I see some actual evidence of it.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#713 » by Bulliever2020 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:49 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
Bulliever2020 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:Just like Lauri, WCJ, and Coby.


I disliked every one of those picks and have never claimed any would become all stars so that is surely not a reference to a previous post I have made.

I have seen enough of Patrick to see he possesses all the raw talent needed to become a force in this league. All we have heard about his work ethic makes me believe he will maximize the gifts he has been given. And the Bulls have already shown they will do everything they can to give him opportunities to grow into that player.

You clearly don't believe he will become that guy. That's your opinion. Mine is that he will. We'll see who ends up right in a few years.

I'm not referring to you specifically, just the general sentiment that those guys were also destined for stardom in the near future. You had baby Dirk, Al Horford 2.0, and the next Gilbert Arenas. Now we have baby Kawhi who has provided significantly less on-court production than our three #7 picks did as rookies. I never said he won't become that guy, but I'm not going to believe he will until I see some actual evidence of it.


I don't believe that was the general sentiment at all on those guys, maybe Stacey King said those things but I don't why you would extrapolate what he says to our entire fanbase. Most of the Bulls and NBA fans in general I think have been extremely critical of our 'core' that has been accumulated the last few seasons. But either way, you can wait on your view of what PW will become all you want. I've seen enough to make my decision. Nothing you say is going to change that.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#714 » by CobyWhite0 » Sun May 2, 2021 8:01 pm

Bulliever2020 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
Bulliever2020 wrote:
I disliked every one of those picks and have never claimed any would become all stars so that is surely not a reference to a previous post I have made.

I have seen enough of Patrick to see he possesses all the raw talent needed to become a force in this league. All we have heard about his work ethic makes me believe he will maximize the gifts he has been given. And the Bulls have already shown they will do everything they can to give him opportunities to grow into that player.

You clearly don't believe he will become that guy. That's your opinion. Mine is that he will. We'll see who ends up right in a few years.

I'm not referring to you specifically, just the general sentiment that those guys were also destined for stardom in the near future. You had baby Dirk, Al Horford 2.0, and the next Gilbert Arenas. Now we have baby Kawhi who has provided significantly less on-court production than our three #7 picks did as rookies. I never said he won't become that guy, but I'm not going to believe he will until I see some actual evidence of it.


I don't believe that was the general sentiment at all on those guys, maybe Stacey King said those things but I don't why you would extrapolate what he says to our entire fanbase. Most of the Bulls and NBA fans in general I think have been extremely critical of our 'core' that has been accumulated the last few seasons. But either way, you can wait on your view of what PW will become all you want. I've seen enough to make my decision. Nothing you say is going to change that.


For Coby and WCJ, that was their comparisons coming into the draft.

Coby / Arenas https://www.nbadraft.net/players/coby-white/'

WCJ / Horford & Juwan Howard https://www.nbadraft.net/players/wendell-carter/

Lauri was compared to Niko and Ryan Anderson, but then he went and had a much, much better rookie year than Dirk ("actual evidence"), so it's easy to see why people saw a future All-Star https://www.nbadraft.net/players/lauri-markkanen/
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#715 » by Bulliever2020 » Sun May 2, 2021 8:10 pm

It's definitely interesting to me that the general sentiment on our core was that we had 2 future allstars and a future MVP on our team yet I have never seen the Bulls mentioned as having one of the best young cores in the NBA.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#716 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 8:42 pm

Bulliever2020 wrote:I don't believe that was the general sentiment at all on those guys, maybe Stacey King said those things but I don't why you would extrapolate what he says to our entire fanbase.

But it was. I guess I can't prove it unless I go back and dig through old threads here and on Reddit, though.

Most of the Bulls and NBA fans in general I think have been extremely critical of our 'core' that has been accumulated the last few seasons.

Yeah, now. Only after it was clear that Lauri isn't the next Dirk, WCJ isn't the next Horford, and Coby isn't the next Arenas has the fanbase been more critical of them, but while those hopes were still alive those players were pretty much impervious to all forms of criticism.

But either way, you can wait on your view of what PW will become all you want. I've seen enough to make my decision. Nothing you say is going to change that.

Fair enough. I personally think it's foolish to make any major conclusions based off less than one full season, but hey, you do you. It's the same thing the believers in our three #7 picks did and said. I prefer to take a "wait and see" approach. For the record, I do hope you're right.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#717 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 8:45 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Bulliever2020 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:I'm not referring to you specifically, just the general sentiment that those guys were also destined for stardom in the near future. You had baby Dirk, Al Horford 2.0, and the next Gilbert Arenas. Now we have baby Kawhi who has provided significantly less on-court production than our three #7 picks did as rookies. I never said he won't become that guy, but I'm not going to believe he will until I see some actual evidence of it.


I don't believe that was the general sentiment at all on those guys, maybe Stacey King said those things but I don't why you would extrapolate what he says to our entire fanbase. Most of the Bulls and NBA fans in general I think have been extremely critical of our 'core' that has been accumulated the last few seasons. But either way, you can wait on your view of what PW will become all you want. I've seen enough to make my decision. Nothing you say is going to change that.


For Coby and WCJ, that was their comparisons coming into the draft.

Coby / Arenas https://www.nbadraft.net/players/coby-white/'

WCJ / Horford & Juwan Howard https://www.nbadraft.net/players/wendell-carter/

Lauri was compared to Niko and Ryan Anderson, but then he went and had a much, much better rookie year than Dirk ("actual evidence"), so it's easy to see why people saw a future All-Star https://www.nbadraft.net/players/lauri-markkanen/

I'm aware of that, but NBA Draft Net's player comps are notoriously awful. They compared DeShawn Stevenson to Michael Jordan. And I'm one of those people who saw a future all-star in Lauri, and I still think it's possible, so you're preaching to the choir. The point I'm trying to make is that the fanbase puts unrealistic expectations on rookies and severely overrates them until it's clear they won't become the player they hoped.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#718 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 10:16 pm

Bulliever2020 wrote:It's definitely interesting to me that the general sentiment on our core was that we had 2 future allstars and a future MVP on our team yet I have never seen the Bulls mentioned as having one of the best young cores in the NBA.


It’s not the general sentiment. Lauri was ripped as a pick, but admittedly the fan base - me included - came to value him extremely highly by the end of his rookie year.

WCJ was panned his entire career and was lamented as a boring and unremarkable pick from day one. As the general sentiment. Of course he had some fans who like him a lot but it was a minority.

Most on this board thought and still think Coby is a bum who, even if he panned out, would be a role player.

And most people aren’t impressed by Williams either, though I am. I’ve been posting here for 20 years. I’ve never seen the fan base less enthused by Bulls lottery picks as I’ve seen these last 4 years.

I think some people recall the fanboy opinions and attribute them to a larger segment of the fan base than the reality of it.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#719 » by Ice Man » Sun May 2, 2021 10:45 pm

DuckIII wrote:I think some people recall the fanboy opinions and attribute them to a larger segment of the fan base than the reality of it.


I dunno, Duck. You were there when Chuck Swirsky told us that the Bulls' core of Zach, Lauri, and Wendell from 3 years ago was clearly better than the Hawks' core of Trae, Collins, and Huerter, and I don't remember much disagreement. 'Tis the nature of fandom to highly rate one's own young players.
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Re: GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2 

Post#720 » by dougthonus » Sun May 2, 2021 11:16 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Bulliever2020 wrote:It's definitely interesting to me that the general sentiment on our core was that we had 2 future allstars and a future MVP on our team yet I have never seen the Bulls mentioned as having one of the best young cores in the NBA.


It’s not the general sentiment. Lauri was ripped as a pick, but admittedly the fan base - me included - came to value him extremely highly by the end of his rookie year.

WCJ was panned his entire career and was lamented as a boring and unremarkable pick from day one. As the general sentiment. Of course he had some fans who like him a lot but it was a minority.

Most on this board thought and still think Coby is a bum who, even if he panned out, would be a role player.

And most people aren’t impressed by Williams either, though I am. I’ve been posting here for 20 years. I’ve never seen the fan base less enthused by Bulls lottery picks as I’ve seen these last 4 years.

I think some people recall the fanboy opinions and attribute them to a larger segment of the fan base than the reality of it.


That doesn't match my impressions of the forum as a whole.

I agree with your take on Lauri. Carter, I think was a pick most people liked, though I agree people didn't view him as a star. I think the general opinion on Coby was much higher than you are suggesting, especially towards the end of the year where he went off.

I think the opinion of Pat on draft day was pretty low, but within a week a ton of people have been super heavily on the Pat Williams band wagon and now many view him as a guy whom is star in the making.
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