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DuckIII wrote:

Bulliever2020 wrote:It's definitely interesting to me that the general sentiment on our core was that we had 2 future allstars and a future MVP on our team yet I have never seen the Bulls mentioned as having one of the best young cores in the NBA.

It’s not the general sentiment. Lauri was ripped as a pick, but admittedly the fan base - me included - came to value him extremely highly by the end of his rookie year.

WCJ was panned his entire career and was lamented as a boring and unremarkable pick from day one. As the general sentiment. Of course he had some fans who like him a lot but it was a minority.

Most on this board thought and still think Coby is a bum who, even if he panned out, would be a role player.

And most people aren’t impressed by Williams either, though I am. I’ve been posting here for 20 years. I’ve never seen the fan base less enthused by Bulls lottery picks as I’ve seen these last 4 years.

I think some people recall the fanboy opinions and attribute them to a larger segment of the fan base than the reality of it.

I'm not talking about the initial reaction at the time they were drafted, I'm talking about what the general consensus was after having seen them play in a Bulls uniform.

It didn't take long into Lauri's rookie year for the narrative to change from him being a wasted pick in the mold of a Ryan Anderson stretch 4 to him being viewed as a legitimate prospect and versatile scorer. Between the end of the 2018-19 season to the beginning of the 2019-20 season a ton of people thought Lauri was a future superstar. Forget all-star, SUPERSTAR. And the majority of those who didn't view him as a superstar at least viewed him as a future all-star.

For Coby, that early season game in his rookie year where he hit all those 3s while his college coach was in attendance changed him from being viewed as another low ceiling pick to something much more than that. The hot streak he ended his rookie season on had a ton of people thinking he was not only our starting PG of the future, but a future all-star as well.

WCJ wasn't held to as high of expectations as those other two, but after his rookie year there was plenty of people who thought he was well on his way to meeting those Horford comps. For the record, Horford made 5 all-star teams. They thought he was going to be our defensive anchor who could make plays and shoot 3s while scoring 15 PPG+.

These weren't just a small subset of individuals who felt this way, it was a sizeable portion of the fanbase. And at one point it was the consensus opinion, especially in regards to Lauri.

DuckIII wrote:

Bulliever2020 wrote:It's definitely interesting to me that the general sentiment on our core was that we had 2 future allstars and a future MVP on our team yet I have never seen the Bulls mentioned as having one of the best young cores in the NBA.

It’s not the general sentiment. Lauri was ripped as a pick, but admittedly the fan base - me included - came to value him extremely highly by the end of his rookie year.

WCJ was panned his entire career and was lamented as a boring and unremarkable pick from day one. As the general sentiment. Of course he had some fans who like him a lot but it was a minority.

Most on this board thought and still think Coby is a bum who, even if he panned out, would be a role player.

And most people aren’t impressed by Williams either, though I am. I’ve been posting here for 20 years. I’ve never seen the fan base less enthused by Bulls lottery picks as I’ve seen these last 4 years.

I think some people recall the fanboy opinions and attribute them to a larger segment of the fan base than the reality of it.

In the short term, fans are influenced by emotions like buyer's remorse or short-term rationalization. For example, I recall being very pleased with WCJ, Markannen, and Coby because we were considering drafting Bamba, Justin Patton, and Darius Garland who all seemed like busts their rookie years. In the long-term, these ephemeral comparisons fall away, and we just evaluate the player's production, or we imagine our FO would have been smart enough to find diamonds in the rough like MPJ, Shai, Donovan Mitchell, etc.

GoBlue72391 wrote:

Wingy wrote:That was a switch flipped. Clearly someone got in his ear, and told him to be aggressive. So dramatically different I’d guess it goes beyond Billy...and probably vets like Vuc/Temple. Whatever it was, hope we can leave it “on.”

I doubt it took until the last 10 games of the season for his coaches/teammates to tell him to be more aggressive. It likely had more to do with Zach and Vuch not playing combined with the Hawks playing with a notable indifference in the first half. Hopefully it's a sign of things to come, but I'll need to see it more to think this is his new normal.

Well, he hasn't had all that much time w/Vuc. I would wild ass guess w/Vuc being out...he got into Pat's ear. Like I said before, the last time Pat had FGAs around that level was when Zach/Vuc both played, and it was the awkward dance of force feeding Vuc. I'd agree that the Hawks early malaise contributed too.

Wingy wrote:Well, he hasn't had all that much time w/Vuc. I would wild ass guess w/Vuc being out...he got into Pat's ear. Like I said before, the last time Pat had FGAs around that level was when Zach/Vuc both played, and it was the awkward dance of force feeding Vuc. I'd agree that the Hawks early malaise contributed too.

Worth noting that his 13 FGA isn't really even that aggressive. It's fewer per minute than Zach, Vuc, Lauri, Coby, Thad, and Val. It's basically 3rd option level of aggressiveness while he's on the floor. I don't mean it as a critique or anything. I think it's a nice step up, but under the context of the situation, it's still not particularly aggressive. You lost 40 shots, they had to go somewhere.

They put up a stat during the CHAR game that Zach had 48 dunks for the year and PW was second at 47. That shocked me but to me it shows the lack of opportunities that they give Patrick within the offense. They station him behind the arc on the weak side while the 2 man game runs on the strong side. So he doesn't get that many chances to shoot from the mid range or deep unless somebody swings the ball around or kicks it out to him from the lane. Yet somehow he gets the ball in the paint to dunk as often as Zach.

ChettheJet wrote:They put up a stat during the CHAR game that Zach had 48 dunks for the year and PW was second at 47. That shocked me but to me it shows the lack of opportunities that they give Patrick within the offense. They station him behind the arc on the weak side while the 2 man game runs on the strong side. So he doesn't get that many chances to shoot from the mid range or deep unless somebody swings the ball around or kicks it out to him from the lane. Yet somehow he gets the ball in the paint to dunk as often as Zach.

Zach has 50 dunks in 55 games. PWill has 47 dunks in 66 games. That's a pretty big difference even when you factor in Zach's much higher usage. Furthermore, we traded away WCJ and Gafford, two guys who no doubt would be up there on the dunk list had we kept them. WCJ has 47 dunks in 51 games. Who else could realistically be second on our team in dunks? Vuch and Theis just got here and Lauri and Thad don't dunk a whole lot.

I was encouraged by JVG's comments last night. I don't pay local announcers any attention, as they indiscriminately praise opposing rookies, but van Gundy calls them as he sees them. He thinks that Pat will indeed become an elite defender. Will he? Only time will tell ... but Jeff is likelier to be right than wrong.

Ice Man wrote:I was encouraged by JVG's comments last night. I don't pay local announcers any attention, as they indiscriminately praise opposing rookies, but van Gundy calls them as he sees them. He thinks that Pat will indeed become an elite defender. Will he? Only time will tell ... but Jeff is likelier to be right than wrong.

That was great. He was very effusive in his praise for Pat, on both sides of the ball. I think he specifically said at one point an all defensive team selection was in his future.

Kid is going to be a stud, bet the farm.

Bulliever2020 wrote:

Ice Man wrote:I was encouraged by JVG's comments last night. I don't pay local announcers any attention, as they indiscriminately praise opposing rookies, but van Gundy calls them as he sees them. He thinks that Pat will indeed become an elite defender. Will he? Only time will tell ... but Jeff is likelier to be right than wrong.

That was great. He was very effusive in his praise for Pat, on both sides of the ball. I think he specifically said at one point an all defensive team selection was in his future.

Kid is going to be a stud, bet the farm.

I was surprised to hear JVG with praise...not sure he is totally objective. It sounded like from the broadcast that his daughter is married to one of the Bulls asst coaches.

Only watched the last few minutes at this point, but...how do you only shoot twice (and make them both) in 23 minutes of play? C'mon kid...you're not Ben Wallace. Knowing Pat's m.o...I'm guessing his actual play didn't tell a different story from the box score.

Milk. Carton. Ugh.

Wingy wrote:Only watched the last few minutes at this point, but...how do you only shoot twice (and make them both) in 23 minutes of play? C'mon kid...you're not Ben Wallace. Knowing Pat's m.o...I'm guessing his actual play didn't tell a different story from the box score.

Milk. Carton. Ugh.

And 1 rebound with 2 TOs.

I'd like to see him dominate the G-League before starting for Chicago again. Some environment where he'll feel OK doing something other than shooting twice in an entire game and grabbing 1 board.

I’m gonna start bashing Williams if he is starting and still taking like 5 shots a game next season. We need more than that from him and Theis if they are going to start.

I'm starting to feel he may end up playing the Ron Harper role (during bulls tenure) for the team as he rolls along.

Not gonna be all-star calibre or the second banana but dependable in other aspect of the game.

WindyCityBorn wrote:I’m gonna start bashing Williams if he is starting and still taking like 5 shots a game next season. We need more than that from him and Theis if they are going to start.

He actually averages 9.5 fga per 36. But that still won’t cut it, and these milk carton games have to vanish. And it can’t just be fga. He’s got to assert himself more physically when doing it. Those things are needed and would be a good show of improvement in year 2, without placing any huge expectations.

Pat is probably having one of the worst rookie seasons for any Bulls rookie in quite some time. He is in the Snell / Teague category.

Last night, he tried to dribble drive early in the game and he got stripped relatively easily. I really question the videos we saw from the summer. I'm not sure he has the skills at an NBA level. Beyond that, there were multiple times where a long rebound came near him and he barely moved as a Nets player hustled over and got it. He really seems low energy to the point where he looks lazy. He also has seemingly regressed on defense.

I get it, he is young but man there are a million red flags here.

coldfish wrote:Pat is probably having one of the worst rookie seasons for any Bulls rookie in quite some time. He is in the Snell / Teague category.

Last night, he tried to dribble drive early in the game and he got stripped relatively easily. I really question the videos we saw from the summer. I'm not sure he has the skills at an NBA level. Beyond that, there were multiple times where a long rebound came near him and he barely moved as a Nets player hustled over and got it. He really seems low energy to the point where he looks lazy. He also has seemingly regressed on defense.

I get it, he is young but man there are a million red flags here.

Oh come on. He’s done that same drive left, body the defender and finish to success multiple times throughout the season. Harris made a nice defensive play and the ball bounced off Williams leg. The move itself showed a quick first step with a nice crossover. Harris just anticipated it so it didn’t work.

What it really shows is that Williams has not learned yet to change up in the middle of a move. When he decides to head fake and take a pull up, he does it even when the head fake leaves him with a path to the basket. Alternatively, like you saw in that play, once he committed to the physical drive to the hoop, he didn’t pull up or step back when Harris defended it well.

It’s still a problem with reacting, processing and feeling the game. But it’s not a skill issue.

Totally agree about his defense, rebounding and sluggishness though. I’ve been saying that since before the trade deadline. It’s a big concern.

I find it a bit ironic regarding his entitlement minute impact. For most rookies it results in chucking, half-hearted defense and a bunch of stupid plays. Pat seems so concerned about making mistakes that he doesn't do much.

Unlike many, I don't care too much about him not taking shots. Because I don't see many comments from Billy that "Pat needs to be more aggressive on offense", leads me to believe his role has been communicated "Play hard on defense and take open shots, but look for someone who has a better shot first". The sooner we start thinking of him as a Draymond Green type and not a Kawhi type, the better off we'll be.

DuckIII wrote:

coldfish wrote:Pat is probably having one of the worst rookie seasons for any Bulls rookie in quite some time. He is in the Snell / Teague category.

Last night, he tried to dribble drive early in the game and he got stripped relatively easily. I really question the videos we saw from the summer. I'm not sure he has the skills at an NBA level. Beyond that, there were multiple times where a long rebound came near him and he barely moved as a Nets player hustled over and got it. He really seems low energy to the point where he looks lazy. He also has seemingly regressed on defense.

I get it, he is young but man there are a million red flags here.

Oh come on. He’s done that same drive left, body the defender and finish to success multiple times throughout the season. Harris made a nice defensive play and the ball bounced off Williams leg. The move itself showed a quick first step with a nice crossover. Harris just anticipated it so it didn’t work.

What it really shows is that Williams has not learned yet to change up in the middle of a move. When he decides to head fake and take a pull up, he does it even when the head fake leaves him with a path to the basket. Alternatively, like you saw in that okay, once he committed to the physical drive to the hoop, he didn’t pull up or step back when Harris defended it well.

It’s still a problem with reacting, process and feeling the game. But it’s not a skill issue.

Totally agree about his defense, rebounding and sluggishness though. I’ve been saying that since before the trade deadline. It’s a concern.

Its just an example. Out of the times when he has been aggressive, it has resulted in an ugly play a lot of the time. To put some stats to the anecdote, Pat has the 3rd highest turnover rate on the team (out of the regulars), behind Sato and Thad. For a guy who rarely passes or puts the ball on the floor, its concerning. Many are calling for his aggressiveness to increase, including myself, but the end result of that might be getting a face full of his low skill level.

coldfish wrote:

DuckIII wrote:

coldfish wrote:Pat is probably having one of the worst rookie seasons for any Bulls rookie in quite some time. He is in the Snell / Teague category.

Last night, he tried to dribble drive early in the game and he got stripped relatively easily. I really question the videos we saw from the summer. I'm not sure he has the skills at an NBA level. Beyond that, there were multiple times where a long rebound came near him and he barely moved as a Nets player hustled over and got it. He really seems low energy to the point where he looks lazy. He also has seemingly regressed on defense.

I get it, he is young but man there are a million red flags here.

Oh come on. He’s done that same drive left, body the defender and finish to success multiple times throughout the season. Harris made a nice defensive play and the ball bounced off Williams leg. The move itself showed a quick first step with a nice crossover. Harris just anticipated it so it didn’t work.

What it really shows is that Williams has not learned yet to change up in the middle of a move. When he decides to head fake and take a pull up, he does it even when the head fake leaves him with a path to the basket. Alternatively, like you saw in that okay, once he committed to the physical drive to the hoop, he didn’t pull up or step back when Harris defended it well.

It’s still a problem with reacting, process and feeling the game. But it’s not a skill issue.

Totally agree about his defense, rebounding and sluggishness though. I’ve been saying that since before the trade deadline. It’s a concern.

Its just an example. Out of the times when he has been aggressive, it has resulted in an ugly play a lot of the time. To put some stats to the anecdote, Pat has the 3rd highest turnover rate on the team (out of the regulars), behind Sato and Thad. For a guy who rarely passes or puts the ball on the floor, its concerning. Many are calling for his aggressiveness to increase, including myself, but the end result of that might be getting a face full of his low skill level.

You and I agree there is an issue with the results, but disagree on the cause. It’s mental processing, decision making, feel, poor instincts, whatever you want to call it. Not skills.

DuckIII wrote:

coldfish wrote:

DuckIII wrote:
Oh come on. He’s done that same drive left, body the defender and finish to success multiple times throughout the season. Harris made a nice defensive play and the ball bounced off Williams leg. The move itself showed a quick first step with a nice crossover. Harris just anticipated it so it didn’t work.

What it really shows is that Williams has not learned yet to change up in the middle of a move. When he decides to head fake and take a pull up, he does it even when the head fake leaves him with a path to the basket. Alternatively, like you saw in that okay, once he committed to the physical drive to the hoop, he didn’t pull up or step back when Harris defended it well.

It’s still a problem with reacting, process and feeling the game. But it’s not a skill issue.

Totally agree about his defense, rebounding and sluggishness though. I’ve been saying that since before the trade deadline. It’s a concern.

Its just an example. Out of the times when he has been aggressive, it has resulted in an ugly play a lot of the time. To put some stats to the anecdote, Pat has the 3rd highest turnover rate on the team (out of the regulars), behind Sato and Thad. For a guy who rarely passes or puts the ball on the floor, its concerning. Many are calling for his aggressiveness to increase, including myself, but the end result of that might be getting a face full of his low skill level.

You and I agree there is an issue with the results, but disagree on the cause. It’s mental processing, decision making, feel, poor instincts, whatever you want to call it. Not skills.

Hopefully you are right. Pat turning into a good player is one of the few things that could turn the franchise around.