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PG: Bulls Clipped

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#141 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:03 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Yes. Sort of. Maybe. Kinda.

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I think what’s happening is that I know we are, but I refuse to admit it.

We can enter the NBA middle class this year.

But the middle class is a very large group of teams now as there aren't many teams that are absolute garbage (like Detroit).

But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down. Obviously if Lavine is traded, it also crumbles.


I gotta admit I’m pleased to see you acknowledge that LaVine is not a negative to our team. It was debatable before, but not now. He is doing everything he can to help this team win on both ends of the court.

If we can be middle class and luck into a top 3 pick we are gonna be rolling. I think we are getting close to the point where a where a star could request Chicago as a destination.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#142 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:05 am

BullChit wrote:
FriedRise wrote:
Read on Twitter


Hahaha just in case you ever forgot how insanely good MJ was hahaha


True. I think LaVine can hit fifty 40+ if if he is Bull for the next 7+ years though. He could have more right now if he was just hunting stats.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#143 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:10 am

DuckIII wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Are we, are we good?
Yes. Sort of. Maybe. Kinda.

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I think what’s happening is that I know we are, but I refuse to admit it.
"We tell ourselves we are not good enough, not smart enough, not good-looking enough or not clever enough to become successful. These messages, becomes so ingrained in your brain that when you do become successful, your brain goes into reverse and won't accept the fact that you are ‘proving it wrong ‘. In your brain, being successful and being great feels strange and foreign. It is part of neuro linguistic programming where you brain is not used to this feeling of greatness and then it starts tripping you up or sabotaging you to correct the ‘mistake’ of being successful."

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#144 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:11 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Yes. Sort of. Maybe. Kinda.

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I think what’s happening is that I know we are, but I refuse to admit it.

We can enter the NBA middle class this year.

But the middle class is a very large group of teams now as there aren't many teams that are absolute garbage (like Detroit).

But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down. Obviously if Lavine is traded, it also crumbles.
I think they could move Otto right now without missing a beat. PWill and Temple seem to be playing pretty great.

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#145 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:11 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
I think what’s happening is that I know we are, but I refuse to admit it.

We can enter the NBA middle class this year.

But the middle class is a very large group of teams now as there aren't many teams that are absolute garbage (like Detroit).

But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down. Obviously if Lavine is traded, it also crumbles.


I gotta admit I’m pleased to see you acknowledge that LaVine is not a negative to our team. It was debatable before, but not now. He is doing everything he can to help this team win on both ends of the court.

If we can be middle class and luck into a top 3 pick we are gonna be rolling. I think we are getting close to the point where a where a star could request Chicago as a destination.

I've never been a huge Lavine hater (nor a huge lover).

I think he's one of the only guys on the team right now who would actually help/contribute in a significant way to the top teams in the league. He really is that gifted of a scorer.

But in no way do I think he's someone you can build a team around. And I don't see how handing him a gigantic contract fits with building around an extremely young Patrick Williams.

He's a valuable player, but he's more valuable to a team trying to contend soon (which isn't in the cards for us). That signals a trade imo.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#146 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:15 am

I’ve been steady in Coby’s corner. I teeter between average and high ceiling with him, but really the two biggest issues (FG% and defense) are theoretically going to get better with age and experience. He has adequate size at PG, very good shooting skill, and a good attitude. If he figures out how to choose his drives better, he won’t get stuffed as often. Also, he can probably learn to sell contact to atleast draw 4 more FTs a game instead of getting stuffed twice a game. Main issue is he doesn’t have any wingspan beyond his height, so unlike Shai or even Murray, he needs to develop his pass and shoot skills to a higher level to excel.

All in all, he’s a quiet assassin in that he has a somewhat bad game, gets s*** on by the board... but is actually only 20yo, almost got a triple-double, and barely into his 3rd week learning a new position from scratch.

I like that Donovan tells it straight in the press conferences. He’s not a jerk about it, but he has specific critiques about Coby’s gaffes.

I really do think Coby/Zach have 50 ppg in them easy by next year. Again- questions are: defense, turnovers, and assists.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#147 » by BullsFTW » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:16 am

Indomitable wrote:
BullsFTW wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
He has a very punchable face.

He just wants attention.

Why are you guys even making him matter. Let him starve and die.

Idk what you’re talking about but he don’t matter to me.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#148 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:20 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:We can enter the NBA middle class this year.

But the middle class is a very large group of teams now as there aren't many teams that are absolute garbage (like Detroit).

But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down. Obviously if Lavine is traded, it also crumbles.
I think Temple can more than cover for Otto right now. Sato and Lauri coming back will certainly make a difference. Even Arch can be helpful for spot minutes so Zach can "rest on the court" a bit for a few minutes each half.

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Yeah I don't think the guy with a PER of 8.1 can "more than cover" for the guy with a PER of 18.

Sato is solid enough, but it's not like we're replacing bad bench minutes with good bench minutes. We're already getting good bench mintues.

Lauri playing minutes instead of Thad/Otto/Pwill at the 4 is going to have negative effects defensively. Will it improve the offense enough to net out as positive? We're going to find out.
Gafford has a better PER than Otto. PER is a horrible measurement, especially for a team that appears to have plenty of scoring and needs defense.

Temple can bring enough offensively and makes the team better defensively. Meanwhile, Otto may bring back something worthwhile in a trade, which I though was what you were hellbent to do.

But don't let all that interfere with your 9 game PER rating.

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#149 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:22 am

Btw Stacey keeps mentioning it, but it’s a good observation. Something clicked in that Sabonis/Pacers match-up.

Wendell has done a 180 with the screens. I thought he set some of the most useless screens - made Felicio look like the Admiral. In the last 5 or so games, Wendell’s screens have been on the money.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#150 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 am

Stratmaster wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:I think Temple can more than cover for Otto right now. Sato and Lauri coming back will certainly make a difference. Even Arch can be helpful for spot minutes so Zach can "rest on the court" a bit for a few minutes each half.

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Yeah I don't think the guy with a PER of 8.1 can "more than cover" for the guy with a PER of 18.

Sato is solid enough, but it's not like we're replacing bad bench minutes with good bench minutes. We're already getting good bench mintues.

Lauri playing minutes instead of Thad/Otto/Pwill at the 4 is going to have negative effects defensively. Will it improve the offense enough to net out as positive? We're going to find out.
Gafford has a better PER than Otto. PER is a horrible measurement, especially for a team that appears to have plenty of scoring and needs defense.

Temple can bring enough offensively and makes the team better defensively. Meanwhile, Otto may bring back something worthwhile in a trade, which I though was what you were hellbent to do.

But don't let all that interfere with your 9 game PER rating.

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It's a decent measure of productivity. And Temple has always had a very low PER. He's not a productive player.

And I absolutely want to deal Otto for value. I just think that trading him will also make us a worse team.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#151 » by MrFortune3 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 am

Chi town wrote:BillyD says we are beating ourselves. Says the guys have grown a lot and improved. You can tell he believes we can every game.



Billy is a really good coach and he seems to really like coaching Zach.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#152 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:31 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:We can enter the NBA middle class this year.

But the middle class is a very large group of teams now as there aren't many teams that are absolute garbage (like Detroit).

But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down. Obviously if Lavine is traded, it also crumbles.


I gotta admit I’m pleased to see you acknowledge that LaVine is not a negative to our team. It was debatable before, but not now. He is doing everything he can to help this team win on both ends of the court.

If we can be middle class and luck into a top 3 pick we are gonna be rolling. I think we are getting close to the point where a where a star could request Chicago as a destination.

I've never been a huge Lavine hater (nor a huge lover).

I think he's one of the only guys on the team right now who would actually help/contribute in a significant way to the top teams in the league. He really is that gifted of a scorer.

But in no way do I think he's someone you can build a team around. And I don't see how handing him a gigantic contract fits with building around an extremely young Patrick Williams.

He's a valuable player, but he's more valuable to a team trying to contend soon (which isn't in the cards for us). That signals a trade imo.


I think LaVine is young enough that his age is not a factor. He is good enough shooter than he will be an elite scorer for another 7+ years. We should preparing to make moves through trade and free agency after this season.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#153 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:31 am

chicagoballer wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
You sort of left out the part about how our offense is better than those teams? I added them in there, and this year's offense (18th before today) is looking to be much better than the 2005 and 2007 teams.

As for the 2011 team, they won 62 games, nobody in their wildest dreams has us around 60 wins this season.



That’s not how it works. You can’t compare a teams offense from this year to a defense from past teams.

The 2011 team was expected to win games in the 50s.

Right now, all I gather from your argument is that we are 18th on offense and 28th on defense. I understand you have hope for better, which is ok. But it’s not objective.


Sorry, I thought it was blatantly obvious (and true), but I'll try again.

"The same (an in-season turnaround) will not happen as we are not good defensively."

All I did was simply point out that while we are not good defensively like 2005 and 2007, we are much better offensively than we were in 2005 and 2007.

I didn't in any way compare "a teams offense from this year to a defense from past teams." I compared our offense from 2005 vs 2021 and 2007 vs 2021.

I hope that helps, I can't make it any clearer.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#154 » by MrFortune3 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:33 am

BullChit wrote:
FriedRise wrote:
Read on Twitter


Hahaha just in case you ever forgot how insanely good MJ was hahaha


I don't think anyone ever forgets how insanely good he was. We just forget what the numbers look like because he was so amazing it sort of transcended them.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#155 » by Southpaw » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:33 am

I had my doubts about Donovan but I'm a Billyver now. He's a really good coach and the guys are responding to him and the coaching staff.

I wasn't able to watch the game again, how did Williams fair against Kawhi/PG? I saw that Kawhi praised the team/Zach/PW. Zach had another great game, he's blossoming into a star. Coby and PWill had good games as well it seems.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#156 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:39 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
I gotta admit I’m pleased to see you acknowledge that LaVine is not a negative to our team. It was debatable before, but not now. He is doing everything he can to help this team win on both ends of the court.

If we can be middle class and luck into a top 3 pick we are gonna be rolling. I think we are getting close to the point where a where a star could request Chicago as a destination.

I've never been a huge Lavine hater (nor a huge lover).

I think he's one of the only guys on the team right now who would actually help/contribute in a significant way to the top teams in the league. He really is that gifted of a scorer.

But in no way do I think he's someone you can build a team around. And I don't see how handing him a gigantic contract fits with building around an extremely young Patrick Williams.

He's a valuable player, but he's more valuable to a team trying to contend soon (which isn't in the cards for us). That signals a trade imo.


I think LaVine is young enough that his age is not a factor. He is good enough shooter than he will be an elite scorer for another 7+ years. We should preparing to make moves through trade and free agency after this season.

If I bought any of Coby, WCJ, Lauri as having a legit star ceiling, I'd be more open to it. Because then you'd have Lavine + one of them as 2 of your 3 stars in the short term, with PWill percolating in the rear.

But I think we struck out entirely on those picks when it comes to star upside. So there's this huge awkward gap between our best two pieces: Lavine and PWill, where Lavine is in his prime and ready to go now, but PWill is super young and going to take time to fill up his tool box.

If you want to get crazy, there's really nothing that would prevent us from trading Lavine now for big value, and still offer him that huge contract in 2 summers.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#157 » by Jeffster81 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:44 am

Frustrating that the Bulls could have gone into LA and taken both games and yet could close the door on either game.

Refreshing to see that despite the record, the Bulls under BD is significant (and competing) better than the prewious game.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#158 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:46 am

Stratmaster wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:I think Temple can more than cover for Otto right now. Sato and Lauri coming back will certainly make a difference. Even Arch can be helpful for spot minutes so Zach can "rest on the court" a bit for a few minutes each half.

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Yeah I don't think the guy with a PER of 8.1 can "more than cover" for the guy with a PER of 18.

Sato is solid enough, but it's not like we're replacing bad bench minutes with good bench minutes. We're already getting good bench mintues.

Lauri playing minutes instead of Thad/Otto/Pwill at the 4 is going to have negative effects defensively. Will it improve the offense enough to net out as positive? We're going to find out.
Gafford has a better PER than Otto. PER is a horrible measurement, especially for a team that appears to have plenty of scoring and needs defense.

Temple can bring enough offensively and makes the team better defensively. Meanwhile, Otto may bring back something worthwhile in a trade, which I though was what you were hellbent to do.

But don't let all that interfere with your 9 game PER rating.

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I didn't know anyone actually used PER any more lol. Especially someone who just a few minutes earlier said that:

"But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down."

Give Sato's (13.6 PER) minutes to Arci (15.0 PER), we should be better according to PER

Give Thad's (12.1 PER) minutes to Gafford (18.5 PER), we should be much, much better according to PER

There's a drop off from Otto (18.1 PER) to Val (15.2 PER), but we've still improved 2 of 3 positions.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#159 » by DroseReturnChi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:46 am

MrSparkle wrote:I’ve been steady in Coby’s corner. I teeter between average and high ceiling with him, but really the two biggest issues (FG% and defense) are theoretically going to get better with age and experience. He has adequate size at PG, very good shooting skill, and a good attitude. If he figures out how to choose his drives better, he won’t get stuffed as often. Also, he can probably learn to sell contact to atleast draw 4 more FTs a game instead of getting stuffed twice a game. Main issue is he doesn’t have any wingspan beyond his height, so unlike Shai or even Murray, he needs to develop his pass and shoot skills to a higher level to excel.

All in all, he’s a quiet assassin in that he has a somewhat bad game, gets s*** on by the board... but is actually only 20yo, almost got a triple-double, and barely into his 3rd week learning a new position from scratch.

I like that Donovan tells it straight in the press conferences. He’s not a jerk about it, but he has specific critiques about Coby’s gaffes.

I really do think Coby/Zach have 50 ppg in them easy by next year. Again- questions are: defense, turnovers, and assists.


50ppg doesnt matter. Coby is just not a baller period. Any team starting him will be a lottery team so be prepared.
If only he was consistent and not have awful shooting nights the Bulls would be over 500.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#160 » by kodo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:50 am

Zach is now #5 in the league in scoring. On 60% TS as well.

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