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PG: Bulls Clipped

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#161 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:51 am

DroseReturnChi wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:I’ve been steady in Coby’s corner. I teeter between average and high ceiling with him, but really the two biggest issues (FG% and defense) are theoretically going to get better with age and experience. He has adequate size at PG, very good shooting skill, and a good attitude. If he figures out how to choose his drives better, he won’t get stuffed as often. Also, he can probably learn to sell contact to atleast draw 4 more FTs a game instead of getting stuffed twice a game. Main issue is he doesn’t have any wingspan beyond his height, so unlike Shai or even Murray, he needs to develop his pass and shoot skills to a higher level to excel.

All in all, he’s a quiet assassin in that he has a somewhat bad game, gets s*** on by the board... but is actually only 20yo, almost got a triple-double, and barely into his 3rd week learning a new position from scratch.

I like that Donovan tells it straight in the press conferences. He’s not a jerk about it, but he has specific critiques about Coby’s gaffes.

I really do think Coby/Zach have 50 ppg in them easy by next year. Again- questions are: defense, turnovers, and assists.


50ppg doesnt matter. Coby is just not a baller period. Any team starting him will be a lottery team so be prepared.
If only he was consistent and not have awful shooting nights the Bulls would be over 500.


I think it Coby could work if we had a point forward. It probably won’t work with PWill though. He has to become a PG or be a 6th man.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#162 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Yeah I don't think the guy with a PER of 8.1 can "more than cover" for the guy with a PER of 18.

Sato is solid enough, but it's not like we're replacing bad bench minutes with good bench minutes. We're already getting good bench mintues.

Lauri playing minutes instead of Thad/Otto/Pwill at the 4 is going to have negative effects defensively. Will it improve the offense enough to net out as positive? We're going to find out.
Gafford has a better PER than Otto. PER is a horrible measurement, especially for a team that appears to have plenty of scoring and needs defense.

Temple can bring enough offensively and makes the team better defensively. Meanwhile, Otto may bring back something worthwhile in a trade, which I though was what you were hellbent to do.

But don't let all that interfere with your 9 game PER rating.

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I didn't know anyone actually used PER any more lol. Especially someone who just a few minutes earlier said that:

"But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down."

Give Sato's (13.6 PER) minutes to Arci (15.0 PER), we should be better according to PER

Give Thad's (12.1 PER) minutes to Gafford (18.5 PER), we should be much, much better according to PER

There's a drop off from Otto (18.1 PER) to Val (15.2 PER), but we've still improved 2 of 3 positions.

PER is a good measure of per minute productivity in a box score sense. It's not going to reflect defense that well as that's not found in the box score. 2-3 point differences in PER at this point in the season are not meaningful. 10 point differences? Then you're talking about fundamentally different players.

Dropping from 18 (Otto) to 8 or 9 (Temple) is going to have an impact as the other 4 guys need to pick up the slack. I mean are you guys serious? There's a reason Otto has a huge contract and Temple is basically on a vet min.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#163 » by HINrichPolice » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 am

Proud of the team. Wow, Zach put on a show. If we had Coby clicking too, we win this game.

I wonder why we haven't really run any plays where Patrick is driving to the rim. I think that's a huge aspect of the offense we're not taking advantage of yet. I can't recall any plays where he's taken it from the wing and dribbled to the hoop. When he does drive, he usually gets about 2 steps in from the 3 pt line, kicks it out with a snappy pass or pulls up. Is this because he's just not playing aggressively in terms of getting shots at the hoop, is it that he's more confident pulling up from mid range rather than getting to the rim, or is this what he's coached to do and how the plays are run?
I'm DONE doubting Jimmy Butler.

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#164 » by tedwilliams1999 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:56 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:I’ve been steady in Coby’s corner. I teeter between average and high ceiling with him, but really the two biggest issues (FG% and defense) are theoretically going to get better with age and experience. He has adequate size at PG, very good shooting skill, and a good attitude. If he figures out how to choose his drives better, he won’t get stuffed as often. Also, he can probably learn to sell contact to atleast draw 4 more FTs a game instead of getting stuffed twice a game. Main issue is he doesn’t have any wingspan beyond his height, so unlike Shai or even Murray, he needs to develop his pass and shoot skills to a higher level to excel.

All in all, he’s a quiet assassin in that he has a somewhat bad game, gets s*** on by the board... but is actually only 20yo, almost got a triple-double, and barely into his 3rd week learning a new position from scratch.

I like that Donovan tells it straight in the press conferences. He’s not a jerk about it, but he has specific critiques about Coby’s gaffes.

I really do think Coby/Zach have 50 ppg in them easy by next year. Again- questions are: defense, turnovers, and assists.


50ppg doesnt matter. Coby is just not a baller period. Any team starting him will be a lottery team so be prepared.
If only he was consistent and not have awful shooting nights the Bulls would be over 500.


I think it Coby could work if we had a point forward. It probably won’t work with PWill though. He has to become a PG or be a 6th man.


I spend way too much time day dreaming about Cade Cunningham these days
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#165 » by Ccwatercraft » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:57 am

tedwilliams1999 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:It's always a bit of a catch 22 because the vets are the glue that help the young players play as well as they do, but we definitely need to sell on Otto, Thad, etc. It's a pity because they're great pieces, but they just don't fit the timeline. I think we need to take one last run at the draft in such a strong year (and by all means, if the core can continue to win without those guys, all power to them, that's a win for us), then load up for playoffs. Zach's going to be 26 soon and most importantly will be a 2022 FA. It's nearly time to compete.


This is definitely an intriguing question - if it was up to me, I'd hold on to these veterans for as long as possible, because I do think there is value to having stabilizing, high IQ pieces on the floor to go along with the younger talent that we have. If we're talking about our high end ceiling as a team, however, I do think we're one key prospect away from running this thing back year after year.

If it was up to me, I would try to nab whatever assets we can with trading just one of our veterans (except maybe Sato) and combining them in a package with Lauri. Rather than fire selling the a chunk of the roster simultaneously, this strategy might selectively allow us to open up some more playing time for Williams and WCJ in crunch time. After that, we either sink or swim with the young guys.

There's just too many franchise changing talents in the 2021 draft for me to completely ignore that aspect of team building, and a lot of the top 3-5 guys may have potential as primary initiators. If we can grab an asset or two at this trade deadline, maybe we can consolidate a few more pieces at the 2021 draft in the event that we need to make a big Doncic-like trade.


Young, IMO is a terrific fit, but might also bring a value return. The real question is OPJ, if there is zero intention of resigning him, then he should go.

Lauri?. Being able to match gives us the final say, but if they think they can spend 20 million towards a better player instead, trade him too. I'll leave that up to the team to decide and accept the decision.

As far as veterans are concerned I absolutely think every team needs veterans, they are calm and purposeful, especially when utilized properly.

Thad/sato/temple are not holding us back unless the plan is draft assets for 21,22. I might go as far as suggesting that we need another veteran. in particular at the 5, if we want to win.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#166 » by Jcool0 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:01 am

So this has a chance to be the Bulls team some of us kept expecting. Amazing what competent coaching can do....
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#167 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:06 am

TheSuzerain wrote:Dropping from 18 (Otto) to 8 or 9 (Temple) is going to have an impact as the other 4 guys need to pick up the slack. I mean are you guys serious? There's a reason Otto has a huge contract and Temple is basically on a vet min.

The amount that such a non-productive, but steady, smart, veteran like Temple is helping this team is just more evidence of how empty the stats put up by the "core" are.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#168 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:10 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Dropping from 18 (Otto) to 8 or 9 (Temple) is going to have an impact as the other 4 guys need to pick up the slack. I mean are you guys serious? There's a reason Otto has a huge contract and Temple is basically on a vet min.

The amount that such a non-productive, but steady, smart, veteran like Temple is helping this team is just more evidence of how empty the stats put up by the "core" are.

Temple seems an adequate 5th option. And is actually a good fit with our shot-happy core who need to get shots up to impact the game.

But yeah, the "difference" this year (if there has been much of a difference) is the stabilizing contributions of Otto - Thad - Temple compared to last year when Otto was injured and Thad was pissed at Boylen.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#169 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:17 am

Southpaw wrote:I had my doubts about Donovan but I'm a Billyver now. He's a really good coach and the guys are responding to him and the coaching staff.

I wasn't able to watch the game again, how did Williams fair against Kawhi/PG? I saw that Kawhi praised the team/Zach/PW. Zach had another great game, he's blossoming into a star. Coby and PWill had good games as well it seems.
If you want to see a 3 point shooting war watch q3. Lavine and Leonard went crazy.

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#170 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 am

kodo wrote:Zach is now #5 in the league in scoring. On 60% TS as well.
Trade him! Top 5 scorers are a dime a dozen! There are probably 10 top 5 scorers in the upcoming draft.

Well actually, they are like one of of every 75 I guess. But still...

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#171 » by chicagoballer » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:25 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Sorry, I thought it was blatantly obvious (and true), but I'll try again.

"The same (an in-season turnaround) will not happen as we are not good defensively."

All I did was simply point out that while we are not good defensively like 2005 and 2007, we are much better offensively than we were in 2005 and 2007.

I didn't in any way compare "a teams offense from this year to a defense from past teams." I compared our offense from 2005 vs 2021 and 2007 vs 2021.

I hope that helps, I can't make it any clearer.


overall (meaning offensive and defensive) rating in 2005 - 12th

overall rating 2007 - 4th

overall rating 2021 - 24th

We are not much better offensively. We are marginally better offensively this year. This improvement would be worth discussing if we are top 5 in offense. We are much worse overall, including the improvement in offense compared to the past teams. The point you are trying to make is clear, but the logic is wrong. hope that helps.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#172 » by chicagoballer » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:28 am

Stratmaster wrote:
kodo wrote:Zach is now #5 in the league in scoring. On 60% TS as well.
Trade him! Top 5 scorers are a dime a dozen! There are probably 10 top 5 scorers in the upcoming draft.

Well actually, they are like one of of every 75 I guess. But still...

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zach is insanely good at scoring. all the teams know he is our best weapon by far, and still cant be stopped.

I wish some of our bulls posters can see that the NBA is a game of mismatches. Zach provides you a strong mismatch every night, and you never trade a player like him unless there are personal issues (such as demanding a trade, etc)
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#173 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:34 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Gafford has a better PER than Otto. PER is a horrible measurement, especially for a team that appears to have plenty of scoring and needs defense.

Temple can bring enough offensively and makes the team better defensively. Meanwhile, Otto may bring back something worthwhile in a trade, which I though was what you were hellbent to do.

But don't let all that interfere with your 9 game PER rating.

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I didn't know anyone actually used PER any more lol. Especially someone who just a few minutes earlier said that:

"But you take away a couple of the vets (e.g. Otto, Sato, Thad), and I think this house of cards falls down."

Give Sato's (13.6 PER) minutes to Arci (15.0 PER), we should be better according to PER

Give Thad's (12.1 PER) minutes to Gafford (18.5 PER), we should be much, much better according to PER

There's a drop off from Otto (18.1 PER) to Val (15.2 PER), but we've still improved 2 of 3 positions.

PER is a good measure of per minute productivity in a box score sense. It's not going to reflect defense that well as that's not found in the box score. 2-3 point differences in PER at this point in the season are not meaningful. 10 point differences? Then you're talking about fundamentally different players.

Dropping from 18 (Otto) to 8 or 9 (Temple) is going to have an impact as the other 4 guys need to pick up the slack. I mean are you guys serious? There's a reason Otto has a huge contract and Temple is basically on a vet min.
No one said Temple was as good as Otto.

But no, a PER based on 9 games means absolutely nothing, especially when comparing two totally different types of players and roles. I don't care how far apart they are.

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#174 » by Stratmaster » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:36 am

chicagoballer wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
kodo wrote:Zach is now #5 in the league in scoring. On 60% TS as well.
Trade him! Top 5 scorers are a dime a dozen! There are probably 10 top 5 scorers in the upcoming draft.

Well actually, they are like one of of every 75 I guess. But still...

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zach is insanely good at scoring. all the teams know he is our best weapon by far, and still cant be stopped.

I wish some of our bulls posters can see that the NBA is a game of mismatches. Zach provides you a strong mismatch every night, and you never trade a player like him unless there are personal issues (such as demanding a trade, etc)
Amen and preach!

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#175 » by Chi town » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:38 am

Clocian wrote:
Read on Twitter


The Klaw is so signing here this summer :)
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#176 » by Butler4thewin » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:47 am

Chi town wrote:
Clocian wrote:
Read on Twitter


The Klaw is so signing here this summer :)

hahaha we all wish man ....if that where to happen though where do we play pat ? i mean **** slide lavine to pg and pat to sg dam that lineup would kill on offense and defense
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#177 » by Indomitable » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:59 am

MrFortune3 wrote:
Chi town wrote:BillyD says we are beating ourselves. Says the guys have grown a lot and improved. You can tell he believes we can every game.



Billy is a really good coach and he seems to really like coaching Zach.

Boylen and Fred were truly bad.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#178 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:03 am

Zach will continue to play at an elite level and haters will look more foolish. This no fluke.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#179 » by Southpaw » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:11 am

Stratmaster wrote:
Southpaw wrote:I had my doubts about Donovan but I'm a Billyver now. He's a really good coach and the guys are responding to him and the coaching staff.

I wasn't able to watch the game again, how did Williams fair against Kawhi/PG? I saw that Kawhi praised the team/Zach/PW. Zach had another great game, he's blossoming into a star. Coby and PWill had good games as well it seems.
If you want to see a 3 point shooting war watch q3. Lavine and Leonard went crazy.

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I did and yeah that was fun to watch.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#180 » by wolffy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:13 am

The team is showing that some of the previous season putrid performances were on bad coaching/player development/player roles.

As for this team, with a real coach... you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. The team is getting better and they are starting to play winning ball. Idk if the future is bright but I can see a little light now.

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