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PG: Bulls Clipped

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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#221 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:50 pm

I wonder if it’s easy to determine how often a team shoots over 60% and loses a game. It’s probably not all that often.

Turnovers are a silent killer and need to be resolved. If you have 20 turnovers and shot the ball at 60%, you’re leaving 24-30 points on the table. Goes from a blowout win to a loss.

I see a lot of posts about teams just making tough shots. Another thing that matters a ton that people don’t think about is size and length, across the board. Milwaukee is so tough to score against because they are MASSIVE. Lopez, Giannis, Middleton are all well above average size for their positions. The Bulls are the opposite: Coby has notorious short arms, Lavine doesn’t have great length, WCJ is short. Teams can often EASILY shoot over our players. So while a shot looks defended, it’s different when it’s a Coby White hand up or a Rajon Rondo hand up. This may not seem like much, but it’s another underlooked aspect of the game.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#222 » by Indomitable » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:54 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I wonder if it’s easy to determine how often a team shoots over 60% and loses a game. It’s probably not all that often.

Turnovers are a silent killer and need to be resolved. If you have 20 turnovers and shot the ball at 60%, you’re leaving 24-30 points on the table. Goes from a blowout win to a loss.

I see a lot of posts about teams just making tough shots. Another thing that matters a ton that people don’t think about is size and length, across the board. Milwaukee is so tough to score against because they are MASSIVE. Lopez, Giannis, Middleton are all well above average size for their positions. The Bulls are the opposite: Coby has notorious short arms, Lavine doesn’t have great length, WCJ is short. Teams can often EASILY shoot over our players. So while a shot looks defended, it’s different when it’s a Coby White hand up or a Ramon Rondo hand up. This may not seem like much, but it’s another underlooked aspect of the game.

WCJ has better measurements then Bam. He needs to get in outstanding shape. He has a 7'5 wingspan.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#223 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:36 pm

Indomitable wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I wonder if it’s easy to determine how often a team shoots over 60% and loses a game. It’s probably not all that often.

Turnovers are a silent killer and need to be resolved. If you have 20 turnovers and shot the ball at 60%, you’re leaving 24-30 points on the table. Goes from a blowout win to a loss.

I see a lot of posts about teams just making tough shots. Another thing that matters a ton that people don’t think about is size and length, across the board. Milwaukee is so tough to score against because they are MASSIVE. Lopez, Giannis, Middleton are all well above average size for their positions. The Bulls are the opposite: Coby has notorious short arms, Lavine doesn’t have great length, WCJ is short. Teams can often EASILY shoot over our players. So while a shot looks defended, it’s different when it’s a Coby White hand up or a Ramon Rondo hand up. This may not seem like much, but it’s another underlooked aspect of the game.

WCJ has better measurements then Bam. He needs to get in outstanding shape. He has a 7'5 wingspan.


I don't think Bam has elite size for a center. He's elite because he has incredible ball skills/hand eye coordination/quickness for someone his size.

I am surprised on WCJs short height and longer wingspan, he certainly doesn't play like it.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#224 » by Indomitable » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:42 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I wonder if it’s easy to determine how often a team shoots over 60% and loses a game. It’s probably not all that often.

Turnovers are a silent killer and need to be resolved. If you have 20 turnovers and shot the ball at 60%, you’re leaving 24-30 points on the table. Goes from a blowout win to a loss.

I see a lot of posts about teams just making tough shots. Another thing that matters a ton that people don’t think about is size and length, across the board. Milwaukee is so tough to score against because they are MASSIVE. Lopez, Giannis, Middleton are all well above average size for their positions. The Bulls are the opposite: Coby has notorious short arms, Lavine doesn’t have great length, WCJ is short. Teams can often EASILY shoot over our players. So while a shot looks defended, it’s different when it’s a Coby White hand up or a Ramon Rondo hand up. This may not seem like much, but it’s another underlooked aspect of the game.

WCJ has better measurements then Bam. He needs to get in outstanding shape. He has a 7'5 wingspan.


I don't think Bam has elite size for a center. He's elite because he has incredible ball skills/hand eye coordination/quickness for someone his size.

I am surprised on WCJs short height and longer wingspan, he certainly doesn't play like it.

He is elite because he did not gain 30 pounds. He dropped 10. Wendell moved much better in his rookie year. He would do well dropping the weight. Bryant in DC got in shape. Wendell way to success is gaining an endurance edge.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#225 » by Ice Man » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:45 pm

Our bigs defended well. The Clippers scored a bunch because they hit their 3s, got a lot of offensive rebounds (mostly long rebounds on missed 3s), and they got some fast-break opportunities from our turnovers. To be honest, I think that interior defense has become a strength of this team, after a rough early start.

The issue with the 3-point shooting, as Billy Donovan said after the Sacramento game, has mostly to do with our smalls getting better at defending the point of attack. That and getting some better luck. The opposition in recent games has been nailing their shots.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#226 » by BullsFTW » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:43 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
you are providing some great material to bring up later :)


Insane stuff. The team supposedly plays better defense without Markkanen, yet the Clippers scored 130 points. :crazy:

I don't care what the numbers say this early in the season, things will regress/progress to the mean. But by the eye test, there are fewer "WTF was that" defensive possessions. And with Lauri, they were outrebounded 3 out of 4 times. Without Lauri, they have now outrebounded the competition 5 out of 7 times.

But if everybody here wants to tell me I'm just way off base and that the absence of Lauri is actually helping the offense, well…I won't argue with you there, since I think he's a negative player on both ends.

I actually think that could be true. While Lauri is a decent player, maybe he’s not a good fit. The Bulls are more versatile on both ends having two combo forwards in the starting line-up.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#227 » by Red8911 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:15 am

Am2626 wrote:
wolffy wrote:The team is showing that some of the previous season putrid performances were on bad coaching/player development/player roles.

As for this team, with a real coach... you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. The team is getting better and they are starting to play winning ball. Idk if the future is bright but I can see a little light now.


Yeah if Boylen were still coaching this team the Bulls would probably only have 1-2 wins at this point. GarPax and Boylen put such a black cloud over the Bulls. Glad to see them gone.

The bulls are currently 4-7. Last year with Boylen they started with the same record at 4-7. Sure the team looks better now but we also need to see results. If they don’t win games it doesn’t mean anything. It looks like they are but let’s see what happens first.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#228 » by MrSparkle » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:29 am

Red8911 wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
wolffy wrote:The team is showing that some of the previous season putrid performances were on bad coaching/player development/player roles.

As for this team, with a real coach... you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. The team is getting better and they are starting to play winning ball. Idk if the future is bright but I can see a little light now.


Yeah if Boylen were still coaching this team the Bulls would probably only have 1-2 wins at this point. GarPax and Boylen put such a black cloud over the Bulls. Glad to see them gone.

The bulls are currently 4-7. Last year with Boylen they started with the same record at 4-7. Sure the team looks better now but we also need to see results. If they don’t win games it doesn’t mean anything. It looks like they are but let’s see what happens first.


We really don't.

I think the best possible case scenario, is the team's young core massively improves across the board, vet(s) get traded for a FRP, and we are in play for a top-4 pick.

But if they do see results and we win games, it'd be nice to see such improvement, though I'd be very concerned with the core's ceiling.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#229 » by ZOMG » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:00 am

BullsFTW wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
Insane stuff. The team supposedly plays better defense without Markkanen, yet the Clippers scored 130 points. :crazy:

I don't care what the numbers say this early in the season, things will regress/progress to the mean. But by the eye test, there are fewer "WTF was that" defensive possessions. And with Lauri, they were outrebounded 3 out of 4 times. Without Lauri, they have now outrebounded the competition 5 out of 7 times.

But if everybody here wants to tell me I'm just way off base and that the absence of Lauri is actually helping the offense, well…I won't argue with you there, since I think he's a negative player on both ends.

I actually think that could be true. While Lauri is a decent player, maybe he’s not a good fit. The Bulls are more versatile on both ends having two combo forwards in the starting line-up.


He's played THREE FULL GAMES. And in those games, by all accounts he performed very well (and more or less as a "combo forward" to boot), while the team still sucked as a whole at that point. Why don't we give him a bit more than those few games before deciding whether he's a "fit" or not? Sheesh...

As Red8911 said, there's no getting around the fact that we're 4-7. Forget the moral victories. We've played lots of teams who didn't have their best players. The fact remains that this team hasn't exactly set the world on fire in Lauri's absence. And now Otto is injured again.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#230 » by kodo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:17 am

Red8911 wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
wolffy wrote:The team is showing that some of the previous season putrid performances were on bad coaching/player development/player roles.

As for this team, with a real coach... you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. The team is getting better and they are starting to play winning ball. Idk if the future is bright but I can see a little light now.


Yeah if Boylen were still coaching this team the Bulls would probably only have 1-2 wins at this point. GarPax and Boylen put such a black cloud over the Bulls. Glad to see them gone.

The bulls are currently 4-7. Last year with Boylen they started with the same record at 4-7. Sure the team looks better now but we also need to see results. If they don’t win games it doesn’t mean anything. It looks like they are but let’s see what happens first.


Not only did this team start the same as last year, Boylen had us at .500 in December.

We had plenty of close shaves at this point last year as well. 2 point loss to GS, 1 point loss to Toronto, OT loss to Miami, 3 point loss to OKC, etc.. And we actually won our early LAC game.

The product is more watchable because it's all offense / no defense, but at the current trajectory the Bulls aren't any better than last year. Just bad in an opposite way. It will be the big story of '21 if BIlly can get good play on both ends, which hasn't happened with a Bulls team in very many years.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#231 » by Dez » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:03 am

ZOMG wrote:
BullsFTW wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:I don't care what the numbers say this early in the season, things will regress/progress to the mean. But by the eye test, there are fewer "WTF was that" defensive possessions. And with Lauri, they were outrebounded 3 out of 4 times. Without Lauri, they have now outrebounded the competition 5 out of 7 times.

But if everybody here wants to tell me I'm just way off base and that the absence of Lauri is actually helping the offense, well…I won't argue with you there, since I think he's a negative player on both ends.

I actually think that could be true. While Lauri is a decent player, maybe he’s not a good fit. The Bulls are more versatile on both ends having two combo forwards in the starting line-up.


He's played THREE FULL GAMES. And in those games, by all accounts he performed very well (and more or less as a "combo forward" to boot), while the team still sucked as a whole at that point. Why don't we give him a bit more than those few games before deciding whether he's a "fit" or not? Sheesh...

As Red8911 said, there's no getting around the fact that we're 4-7. Forget the moral victories. We've played lots of teams who didn't have their best players. The fact remains that this team hasn't exactly set the world on fire in Lauri's absence. And now Otto is injured again.


But Coby and WCJ were to be punted to the bench in less games that? You can't have one set of rules for Lauri and then completely throw them out the window for others.

Either none of them get time or they all get time, be balanced with your arguments.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#232 » by ZOMG » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:21 am

Dez wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
BullsFTW wrote:I actually think that could be true. While Lauri is a decent player, maybe he’s not a good fit. The Bulls are more versatile on both ends having two combo forwards in the starting line-up.


He's played THREE FULL GAMES. And in those games, by all accounts he performed very well (and more or less as a "combo forward" to boot), while the team still sucked as a whole at that point. Why don't we give him a bit more than those few games before deciding whether he's a "fit" or not? Sheesh...

As Red8911 said, there's no getting around the fact that we're 4-7. Forget the moral victories. We've played lots of teams who didn't have their best players. The fact remains that this team hasn't exactly set the world on fire in Lauri's absence. And now Otto is injured again.


But Coby and WCJ were to be punted to the bench in less games that? You can't have one set of rules for Lauri and then completely throw them out the window for others.

Either none of them get time or they all get time, be balanced with your arguments.


People are literally saying Lauri should be gone by trade deadline this season. :lol: Yes, they're saying this after seeing him play three full games, in which he was probably the best player on the team and certainly played his best ball in a long time.

Then he was karate kicked in the leg by Wendell-san, victimized by the shadowy cabal that is the NBA's health and safety department and that was that. Now we might not see him in weeks if the League takes a break.

Trade deadline's getting closer...
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#233 » by Am2626 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:20 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
Red8911 wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
Yeah if Boylen were still coaching this team the Bulls would probably only have 1-2 wins at this point. GarPax and Boylen put such a black cloud over the Bulls. Glad to see them gone.

The bulls are currently 4-7. Last year with Boylen they started with the same record at 4-7. Sure the team looks better now but we also need to see results. If they don’t win games it doesn’t mean anything. It looks like they are but let’s see what happens first.


We really don't.

I think the best possible case scenario, is the team's young core massively improves across the board, vet(s) get traded for a FRP, and we are in play for a top-4 pick.

But if they do see results and we win games, it'd be nice to see such improvement, though I'd be very concerned with the core's ceiling.


Agreed. From a purely win / loss perspective I don’t want to see this team win meaningless games at the expense at missing out on a top 7 pick. The most important thing is to see growth and development from the young core players. If Zach and or Lauri, Pat Williams play enable the Bulls to win then so be it. If it is Thad Young, Otto, or Sato that are responsible for the winning then that’s not in the Bulls best interest. These guys should all be moved at the trade deadline for future draft picks. Continue to develop the core and maintain a bottom 10 record and the Bulls can look to the playoffs and contending next year with a good draft pick added to this team. Maybe in the summer the Bulls can also look for a consolidation trade to either acquire a lottery pick or try and trade for a star.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#234 » by Am2626 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:25 pm

ZOMG wrote:
BullsFTW wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:I don't care what the numbers say this early in the season, things will regress/progress to the mean. But by the eye test, there are fewer "WTF was that" defensive possessions. And with Lauri, they were outrebounded 3 out of 4 times. Without Lauri, they have now outrebounded the competition 5 out of 7 times.

But if everybody here wants to tell me I'm just way off base and that the absence of Lauri is actually helping the offense, well…I won't argue with you there, since I think he's a negative player on both ends.

I actually think that could be true. While Lauri is a decent player, maybe he’s not a good fit. The Bulls are more versatile on both ends having two combo forwards in the starting line-up.


He's played THREE FULL GAMES. And in those games, by all accounts he performed very well (and more or less as a "combo forward" to boot), while the team still sucked as a whole at that point. Why don't we give him a bit more than those few games before deciding whether he's a "fit" or not? Sheesh...

As Red8911 said, there's no getting around the fact that we're 4-7. Forget the moral victories. We've played lots of teams who didn't have their best players. The fact remains that this team hasn't exactly set the world on fire in Lauri's absence. And now Otto is injured again.


This team’s core still isn’t good enough to contend for a championship one day. What is the point of sneaking into the playoffs this year and then getting destroyed by a real contending team? They need one more draft and this draft is very top heavy. Everyone should be happy to see this team competing with good teams while still maintaining their draft position.
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Re: PG: Bulls Clipped 

Post#235 » by Dez » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:02 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Dez wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
He's played THREE FULL GAMES. And in those games, by all accounts he performed very well (and more or less as a "combo forward" to boot), while the team still sucked as a whole at that point. Why don't we give him a bit more than those few games before deciding whether he's a "fit" or not? Sheesh...

As Red8911 said, there's no getting around the fact that we're 4-7. Forget the moral victories. We've played lots of teams who didn't have their best players. The fact remains that this team hasn't exactly set the world on fire in Lauri's absence. And now Otto is injured again.


But Coby and WCJ were to be punted to the bench in less games that? You can't have one set of rules for Lauri and then completely throw them out the window for others.

Either none of them get time or they all get time, be balanced with your arguments.


People are literally saying Lauri should be gone by trade deadline this season. :lol: Yes, they're saying this after seeing him play three full games, in which he was probably the best player on the team and certainly played his best ball in a long time.

Then he was karate kicked in the leg by Wendell-san, victimized by the shadowy cabal that is the NBA's health and safety department and that was that. Now we might not see him in weeks if the League takes a break.

Trade deadline's getting closer...

You completely ignored the point of the post to throw a drive-by at WCJ and claim a conspiracy against Lauri by the NBA.

Wow.

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