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The Bulls should rebuild now.

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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#21 » by cjbulls » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:28 pm

Mk0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:We are rebuilding now. What some of you want is to get rid of every player is not named PWill no matter how well they play and start from scratch. That isn’t necessary.

We are already one of the youngest teams in the league. I think our starting 5 has like an average age of 24?

OPJ is an old dog off the bench at 27.

This team is super young.


The Bulls opening night (and when healthy) starting lineup is younger than the Wisconsin Badgers starting 5.

20, 25, 19, 23, 21 from PG to C
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#22 » by PlayerUp » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:48 pm

We have the 6th worst record in the NBA at the moment.

Aren't we rebuilding already?

Unless you mean trade Zach Lavine. I don't think the Bulls got a big enough offer to move Zach Lavine is the problem.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#23 » by netduri2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:04 am

Keeping LaVine means you are gonna give him massive contract after his current team-friendly contract ends. His eligible max contract will be more than current 30% max - 190 mil / 5 years. MORE THAN 190 mil / 5 years.

Are you sure giving him near max contract is a good idea after two years? He still has too many flaws to be a go-to-guy on title contenders. Poor defensive awareness, too many turnovers, not good AST:TO ratio, tendency to take tough shots etc. And his on/off stats are still seriously bad.

Despite of his recent impressive scoring our offensive rating difference between the time he is on the court and off the court is quite small. When he's on the floor our offensive rating is 112.6 and when he's off the floor it's 111.6 so the difference is very little. On defensive end when he's on the floor our defensive rating is 120.4 which is really terrible. When he's off the floor it dramatically drops to 107.1

offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

OFC It's not all on Zach being a bad defender but it is certain at least he's a part of the problem. But no matter we keep him or not we desperately need a REAL top 10-15 player if the Bulls really want to reach to high stage like the Conference Finals or NBA Finals. What's the point overpaying him if you still need to find a top10 player then?
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#24 » by mtron32 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:08 am

sco wrote:
thebizkit wrote:I know this is an unpopular opinion this early in the season, but I said to myself earlier in the year that if an Eastern Conference team made a huge move to lock down the conference for the next 3-4 years, that the Bulls should trade Lavine, Lauri and whoever else at the trade deadline if not sooner.

Well... Brooklyn just made that move today and I'm sure Philly, Boston and Milwaukee will try to make a move as well to keep up.

Let's be honest, the Bulls have no chance in hell of competing against a super-team in the East, and yes I know that you can say that about 80% of the rest of the East as well. The difference is the Bulls have pieces that can bring in future assets now. I'm not going to hold out hope for another "Well the bulls have plenty of cap in free agency" pep talk, been there, done that... More than twice now.

This just sounds like, ok let's trade our whole team for a handful of magic beans, but they really need to be MAGIC this time!

LMAO, yes, Bulls fans have been chasing magic beans for 5 years now.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#25 » by Hold That » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am

Kukoc-Lauri wrote:Phila is on move. Lavine for Scott, Maxey, Thybulle and future frp and pick swap. Porter to Blazers for Hood,Little and A.Simmons. Young to Bucks for Craig and second round pick. Draft Jaylen Green, luck is ours again, resign Lauri 4/78.
White - Jaylen Green - P.Williams - Markkanen - Carter. A.Simmons - Maxey - Thybulle - Little - Gafford. Dotson Craig Hutchinson Simonovic. And still room for one max player or to took bad contract for assetes.

If that’s all we can get for Lavine in your scenerio were better off keeping him. We are just getting back even more role players with low ceilings in your Lavine idea. Who cares about a future first round pick that’s going to be in the low 20s on top of a swap? Swap with what? Our record will likely be worse than the 76ers so I don’t know what we’d be swapping into whether it be 2 or 3 years from now.

To even have a Lavine discussion it has to start with a lottery pick. Lavine “trade value” is not going to decline, the best time to move him is after the lottery has occured. Lavine should absolutely not be traded before the trade deadline unless we are getting 2-3 picks with atleast one of them being in the lottery. Lavine might not be able to carry a team but there’s no doubt he can help a team get over their hump. This is why I’m not for trading Lavine during the season to any team that’s on the brink of making the playoffs or considered a playoff team already. Wait until the season has passed first.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#26 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:11 am

netduri2 wrote:Keeping LaVine means you are gonna give him massive contract after his current team-friendly contract ends. His eligible max contract will be more than current 30% max - 190 mil / 5 years. MORE THAN 190 mil / 5 years.

Are you sure giving him near max contract is a good idea after two years? He still has too many flaws to be a go-to-guy on title contenders. Poor defensive awareness, too many turnovers, not good AST:TO ratio, tendency to take tough shots etc. And his on/off stats are still seriously bad.

Despite of his recent impressive scoring our offensive rating difference between the time he is on the court and off the court is quite small. When he's on the floor our offensive rating is 112.6 and when he's off the floor it's 111.6 so the difference is very little. On defensive end when he's on the floor our defensive rating is 120.4 which is really terrible. When he's off the floor it dramatically drops to 107.1

offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

OFC It's not all on Zach being a bad defender but it is certain at least he's a part of the problem. But no matter we keep him or not we desperately need a REAL top 10-15 player if the Bulls really want to reach to high stage like the Conference Finals or NBA Finals. What's the point overpaying him if you still need to find a top10 player then?


Max contracts aren't just for go-to guys on title teams. On almost every team, the top two guys are max guys
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#27 » by netduri2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:15 am

cjbulls wrote:
netduri2 wrote:Keeping LaVine means you are gonna give him massive contract after his current team-friendly contract ends. His eligible max contract will be more than current 30% max - 190 mil / 5 years. MORE THAN 190 mil / 5 years.

Are you sure giving him near max contract is a good idea after two years? He still has too many flaws to be a go-to-guy on title contenders. Poor defensive awareness, too many turnovers, not good AST:TO ratio, tendency to take tough shots etc. And his on/off stats are still seriously bad.

Despite of his recent impressive scoring our offensive rating difference between the time he is on the court and off the court is quite small. When he's on the floor our offensive rating is 112.6 and when he's off the floor it's 111.6 so the difference is very little. On defensive end when he's on the floor our defensive rating is 120.4 which is really terrible. When he's off the floor it dramatically drops to 107.1

offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

OFC It's not all on Zach being a bad defender but it is certain at least he's a part of the problem. But no matter we keep him or not we desperately need a REAL top 10-15 player if the Bulls really want to reach to high stage like the Conference Finals or NBA Finals. What's the point overpaying him if you still need to find a top10 player then?


Max contracts aren't just for go-to guys on title teams. On almost every team, the top two guys are max guys


And those teams who don't have a real top 10-15 go-to-guy and only have second-tier star will never achieve great success.

If the Bulls had another player or young prospect who have great potential to be "the guy" I would agree with the idea to give LaVine max contract. Unfortunately the Bulls don't have.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#28 » by Red8911 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:18 am

The bulls need to build not rebuild. Trading Lavine for picks is just a bad idea that will set them backwards again. Why not keep Lavine and get him more help for a change? Start making basketball moves again to improve the roster ! AK needs to get to work already.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#29 » by Hold That » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:23 am

Red8911 wrote:The bulls need to build not rebuild. Trading Lavine for picks is just a bad idea that will set them backwards again. Why not keep Lavine and get him more help for a change? Start making basketball moves again to improve the roster ! AK needs to get to work already.

We are one of the bottom 5 teams in the league. Set us backwards how ? Especially when you’re already at the bottom. And this team does not have a single player under 25 that’s projected to be a stud. This is the perfect time to hit a reset button because there’s literally not much to reset outside of Lavine.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#30 » by HomoSapien » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:27 am

We can't keep worrying about what other teams are doing. We did that with Jimmy Butler and then LeBron left the conference and the Toronto Raptors won a championship. The NBA is fluid, rosters rapidly change, injuries happen. We should just worry about ourselves.

That said, we're going to likely rebuild simply because at some point AK is going to want to build the team strictly in his vision. That'll mean some if not most of these players will be moved.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#31 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:28 am

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BRK/2019.html

Two years ago, the Nets were a mediocre try hard team that squeaked into the playoffs with a 42-40 record. Their "best" player was Deangelo Russell.

The irony of wanting to blow this Bulls team up because that team got really good knows no bounds.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#32 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:28 am

netduri2 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
netduri2 wrote:Keeping LaVine means you are gonna give him massive contract after his current team-friendly contract ends. His eligible max contract will be more than current 30% max - 190 mil / 5 years. MORE THAN 190 mil / 5 years.

Are you sure giving him near max contract is a good idea after two years? He still has too many flaws to be a go-to-guy on title contenders. Poor defensive awareness, too many turnovers, not good AST:TO ratio, tendency to take tough shots etc. And his on/off stats are still seriously bad.

Despite of his recent impressive scoring our offensive rating difference between the time he is on the court and off the court is quite small. When he's on the floor our offensive rating is 112.6 and when he's off the floor it's 111.6 so the difference is very little. On defensive end when he's on the floor our defensive rating is 120.4 which is really terrible. When he's off the floor it dramatically drops to 107.1

offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

OFC It's not all on Zach being a bad defender but it is certain at least he's a part of the problem. But no matter we keep him or not we desperately need a REAL top 10-15 player if the Bulls really want to reach to high stage like the Conference Finals or NBA Finals. What's the point overpaying him if you still need to find a top10 player then?


Max contracts aren't just for go-to guys on title teams. On almost every team, the top two guys are max guys


And those teams who don't have a real top 10-15 go-to-guy and only have second-tier star will never achieve great success.

If the Bulls had another player or young prospect who have great potential to be "the guy" I would agree with the idea to give LaVine max contract. Unfortunately the Bulls don't have.


You need some star players, you have one (albeit on the lower end). So what is the point of getting rid of him? The minute you find your star you'll be saying you need another star. These guys aren't easy to find and retain.

None of these trades being discussed for Zach are getting you a new star.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#33 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:33 am

Hold That wrote:
Kukoc-Lauri wrote:Phila is on move. Lavine for Scott, Maxey, Thybulle and future frp and pick swap. Porter to Blazers for Hood,Little and A.Simmons. Young to Bucks for Craig and second round pick. Draft Jaylen Green, luck is ours again, resign Lauri 4/78.
White - Jaylen Green - P.Williams - Markkanen - Carter. A.Simmons - Maxey - Thybulle - Little - Gafford. Dotson Craig Hutchinson Simonovic. And still room for one max player or to took bad contract for assetes.

If that’s all we can get for Lavine in your scenerio were better off keeping him. We are just getting back even more role players with low ceilings in your Lavine idea. Who cares about a future first round pick that’s going to be in the low 20s on top of a swap? Swap with what? Our record will likely be worse than the 76ers so I don’t know what we’d be swapping into whether it be 2 or 3 years from now.

To even have a Lavine discussion it has to start with a lottery pick. Lavine “trade value” is not going to decline, the best time to move him is after the lottery has occured. Lavine should absolutely not be traded before the trade deadline unless we are getting 2-3 picks with atleast one of them being in the lottery. Lavine might not be able to carry a team but there’s no doubt he can help a team get over their hump. This is why I’m not for trading Lavine during the season to any team that’s on the brink of making the playoffs or considered a playoff team already. Wait until the season has passed first.

Maxey as 19 yo scored 39 in his first start in Nba, Thybulle is future dpoy candidate, with Phila pick you can draft someone like Ron Harper Jr in molde of Horton Tucker. With Bulls pick you are probably getting Cade/Suggs/Green/Mobley/Kumminga all better prospects than Lavine was and with higher celling. You are right Sixers should probably add one more frp in 2025 and Embiid is injury prone, never know. At the moment it is arms race and Sixers needs to react and pay higher price for Beal or slightly lower for Zach. We need multiple draft assets, with Lavine as max player in 2022 and with current Nba landscape we are bottom playoff seed at best. I am betting on Suggs/Cade/Green as franchise players rather than Lavine. That is just my preferencee, we could agree to disagree.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#34 » by netduri2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:37 am

cjbulls wrote:
netduri2 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Max contracts aren't just for go-to guys on title teams. On almost every team, the top two guys are max guys


And those teams who don't have a real top 10-15 go-to-guy and only have second-tier star will never achieve great success.

If the Bulls had another player or young prospect who have great potential to be "the guy" I would agree with the idea to give LaVine max contract. Unfortunately the Bulls don't have.


You need some star players, you have one (albeit on the lower end). So what is the point of getting rid of him? The minute you find your star you'll be saying you need another star. These guys aren't easy to find and retain.



I don't think so.

a) If the Bulls happen to find legit top 10-15 guy after we trade LaVine I will never miss LaVine.

b) If your second star cannot defend and cannot pass well enough he's not that great 2nd option.

And I didn't say trading Zach guarantees you'll find a top 10-15 guy. What I said is overpaying players like LaVine without having any reliable top 10-15 guy is a bad idea.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#35 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:56 am

netduri2 wrote:offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

The thing that's really going over people's heads besides the consistently poor impact numbers Zach has, is that even his box score-related numbers really don't indicate he's any sort of #2 on a a title team either.

This amazing season everybody thinks is worthy of $40million a year, he's putting up a whopping .9 BPM. It was actually better last year, at 2.4, which is his career high.

#2 title guys when they're a #1 on a bad team don't put up those numbers. They put up BPMs around 5, often higher.

Like, you know…Jimmy Butler.

Zach's WS/48 and BPM are closer to Ben Gordon level guys than Kyrie Irving level guys, let alone an Anthony Davis.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#36 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:01 am

Kukoc-Lauri wrote:
Hold That wrote:
Kukoc-Lauri wrote:Phila is on move. Lavine for Scott, Maxey, Thybulle and future frp and pick swap. Porter to Blazers for Hood,Little and A.Simmons. Young to Bucks for Craig and second round pick. Draft Jaylen Green, luck is ours again, resign Lauri 4/78.
White - Jaylen Green - P.Williams - Markkanen - Carter. A.Simmons - Maxey - Thybulle - Little - Gafford. Dotson Craig Hutchinson Simonovic. And still room for one max player or to took bad contract for assetes.

If that’s all we can get for Lavine in your scenerio were better off keeping him. We are just getting back even more role players with low ceilings in your Lavine idea. Who cares about a future first round pick that’s going to be in the low 20s on top of a swap? Swap with what? Our record will likely be worse than the 76ers so I don’t know what we’d be swapping into whether it be 2 or 3 years from now.

To even have a Lavine discussion it has to start with a lottery pick. Lavine “trade value” is not going to decline, the best time to move him is after the lottery has occured. Lavine should absolutely not be traded before the trade deadline unless we are getting 2-3 picks with atleast one of them being in the lottery. Lavine might not be able to carry a team but there’s no doubt he can help a team get over their hump. This is why I’m not for trading Lavine during the season to any team that’s on the brink of making the playoffs or considered a playoff team already. Wait until the season has passed first.

Maxey as 19 yo scored 39 in his first start in Nba, Thybulle is future dpoy candidate, with Phila pick you can draft someone like Ron Harper Jr in molde of Horton Tucker. With Bulls pick you are probably getting Cade/Suggs/Green/Mobley/Kumminga all better prospects than Lavine was and with higher celling. You are right Sixers should probably add one more frp in 2025 and Embiid is injury prone, never know. At the moment it is arms race and Sixers needs to react and pay higher price for Beal or slightly lower for Zach. We need multiple draft assets, with Lavine as max player in 2022 and with current Nba landscape we are bottom playoff seed at best. I am betting on Suggs/Cade/Green as franchise players rather than Lavine. That is just my preferencee, we could agree to disagree.


Despite having a 39 point game in his first 10 (not his first), he averages 11ppg. Coby White had 27 in game #2

You're betting on three guys being franchise players (already highly unlikely) when even in a perfect full tank scenario with the absolute worst record, which isn't even possible just by removing LaVine, you have a 40% chance to land a top 3 pick.

If they stay the course like right now, they'll have a 27% chance. If they get better and just miss the play-in, they still have a 13% chance to land a top 3 pick. In the ladder scenarios, they keep LaVine AND get their new star.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#37 » by DroseReturnChi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:09 am

AK was stupid not to move Lavine for lavert and picks. Lavert is both potential and financial move kills 2 birds with one stone.
Now just move him for maxey, thybulle, picks.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#38 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:14 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
netduri2 wrote:offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

The thing that's really going over people's heads besides the consistently poor impact numbers Zach has, is that even his box score-related numbers really don't indicate he's any sort of #2 on a a title team either.

This amazing season everybody thinks is worthy of $40million a year, he's putting up a whopping .9 BPM. It was actually better last year, at 2.4, which is his career high.

#2 title guys when they're a #1 on a bad team don't put up those numbers. They put up BPMs around 5, often higher.

Like, you know…Jimmy Butler.

Zach's WS/48 and BPM are closer to Ben Gordon level guys than Kyrie Irving level guys, let alone an Anthony Davis.


Only 10 guys in the NBA produced a BPM over 5. Zach ranked 35th in all of the NBA at BPM last year (at age 24). With 30 teams and roughly 2 maxes per team, I would say he's a max player by that stat alone.

Last year's Bulls leader in BPM was Shaq Harrison. Is he the best player on the team?

This year's leader in On/Off offensive and defensive rating is Denzel Valentine, is he the best player on the team?
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#39 » by netduri2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:14 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
netduri2 wrote:offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

The thing that's really going over people's heads besides the consistently poor impact numbers Zach has, is that even his box score-related numbers really don't indicate he's any sort of #2 on a a title team either.

This amazing season everybody thinks is worthy of $40million a year, he's putting up a whopping .9 BPM. It was actually better last year, at 2.4, which is his career high.

#2 title guys when they're a #1 on a bad team don't put up those numbers. They put up BPMs around 5, often higher.

Like, you know…Jimmy Butler.

Zach's WS/48 and BPM are closer to Ben Gordon level guys than Kyrie Irving level guys, let alone an Anthony Davis.


TBH I don't understand why some Bulls fans keep comparing Butler to LaVine since simply put Butler was a better player when he played for the Bulls.

As you pointed out LaVine's traditional stats based on boxscore stats (BPM, WS/48, PER etc) is nowhere near Butler's when he was on the Bulls.

And if you take a look at on-off number you'll find out Butler was much better player than LaVine is.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#40 » by Hold That » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:17 am

Kukoc-Lauri wrote:
Hold That wrote:
Kukoc-Lauri wrote:Phila is on move. Lavine for Scott, Maxey, Thybulle and future frp and pick swap. Porter to Blazers for Hood,Little and A.Simmons. Young to Bucks for Craig and second round pick. Draft Jaylen Green, luck is ours again, resign Lauri 4/78.
White - Jaylen Green - P.Williams - Markkanen - Carter. A.Simmons - Maxey - Thybulle - Little - Gafford. Dotson Craig Hutchinson Simonovic. And still room for one max player or to took bad contract for assetes.

If that’s all we can get for Lavine in your scenerio were better off keeping him. We are just getting back even more role players with low ceilings in your Lavine idea. Who cares about a future first round pick that’s going to be in the low 20s on top of a swap? Swap with what? Our record will likely be worse than the 76ers so I don’t know what we’d be swapping into whether it be 2 or 3 years from now.

To even have a Lavine discussion it has to start with a lottery pick. Lavine “trade value” is not going to decline, the best time to move him is after the lottery has occured. Lavine should absolutely not be traded before the trade deadline unless we are getting 2-3 picks with atleast one of them being in the lottery. Lavine might not be able to carry a team but there’s no doubt he can help a team get over their hump. This is why I’m not for trading Lavine during the season to any team that’s on the brink of making the playoffs or considered a playoff team already. Wait until the season has passed first.

Maxey as 19 yo scored 39 in his first start in Nba, Thybulle is future dpoy candidate, with Phila pick you can draft someone like Ron Harper Jr in molde of Horton Tucker. With Bulls pick you are probably getting Cade/Suggs/Green/Mobley/Kumminga all better prospects than Lavine was and with higher celling. You are right Sixers should probably add one more frp in 2025 and Embiid is injury prone, never know. At the moment it is arms race and Sixers needs to react and pay higher price for Beal or slightly lower for Zach. We need multiple draft assets, with Lavine as max player in 2022 and with current Nba landscape we are bottom playoff seed at best. I am betting on Suggs/Cade/Green as franchise players rather than Lavine. That is just my preferencee, we could agree to disagree.


It’s the NBA, on any given night the 15th man can put up 40. I need to see more than just one 39 performance to trade him for Zach who does it minimum once a week. Thybull is a solid role player. He’s about as much of a future DPOY as Matt Barnes was. Ron Harper JR? No thank you. THT hasn’t even proven himself fully in the league yet. We’ve seen flashes and heard a bunch of “practice” stories. Let alone trying to “find someone like him” in the draft.

If Zach isn’t going for a lottery pick or another young stud that just wants out who’s at the same caliber and age as Zach then Id rather extend him. Even on a max deal if he continues to put up the numbers he’s putting up he’ll be moveable. If Wiggins was moveable with far less trade value than where Zach is now, I’m not worried about extending Zach. What I am worried about is moving him for the sake of moving him and just completing a deal to make it seem like you’re working.

And that’s the issue with a lot of fans on this board. Half these trade proposal do nothing for the Bulls, that you guys suggest. I feel like y’all just want to see SOMETHING happen to the point where we’d be screwing ourselves. It’s like the old saying “the money is burning a hole in your pocket” you just have to spend for the sake of spending. In other words some of you guys are looking to make a deal for the sake of dealing. And you can still bank on Suggs Cade Green Kuminga or whomever is your favorite. I assure you the bulls will be trash enough this year to be in play for one of your favorites with or without trading Zach.

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