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The Bulls should rebuild now.

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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#61 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:39 pm

Leslie Forman wrote: Giving Zach LaVine $200 million would be so bad, it'd end up with some new CBA rule named after his contract.


If you think locking up a 25+PPG efficient scorer for the peak years of his career would be the worst contract ever, I have reason to suspect you dont pay much attention to the rest of the NBA.

The Bulls have no plans for their cap space in the immediate future. There are no free agents coming here. There is a minimum team salary that is 90% of the cap so you need to spend something anyways. Retain your talent and grow your roster (with of course necessary trades to better reshape, which may include Zach).

Nba players on third contracts are all overpaid. That’s NBA life. At least with Zach you get a guy with a good injury history, that has improved every year, and works hard even in the most bleak of situations. In other words, he’s a safe bet to not tank the contract which is the only bad scenario to come out of one of these deals. Otherwise, he just becomes another overpaid contract that can be easily dealt in a few years.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#62 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:00 pm

cjbulls wrote:The 2000 Bulls had Brad Miller (24), Elton Brand (21), Ron Artest (21) and Jamal Crawford (20) all on the same team. Three of them went on to be all stars and they also have one DPOY (and multiple all defense teams) and multiple 6MOY awards. But they were broken up in favor of another tank rebuild. Ages of the current starting lineup are 20, 25, 19, 23, 20.

And sticking with that team would have been a giant pile of mediocre crap for years. Brand played with decent talent in LA (Kaman, Cassell, Maggette, Mobley, etc.) and had literally ONE winning season.

And the Bulls matched that season just a few years later on the backs of their young draft picks in Chandler, Curry, Gordon, Hinrich, Deng. All of them a top-7 pick with little experience (literally none, in Gordon and Deng's case).

cjbulls wrote:The key to winning is talent AND experience. If you trade off all the talent before (1) surrounding them with both talent and experience and (2) they gain the requisite experience, you will be a treadmill team, but even worse, a team that treadmills at the bottom of the league a la Sacramento.

Signing Zach LaVine to a max is the most goddamn Sacramento Kings thing I've ever heard of in my life.

cjbulls wrote:Lost in all the ridiculous PW is Kawhi, Paul George and Jimmy Butler all wrapped into one, is that all 3 started their career on decent teams and were able to grow up learning from other players that had talent and knew how to win. Most young players need a good environment to excel, but you want to tank all that and pray instead.

This is exactly what Krause tried with the Baby Bulls. Sign experienced vets to lead the youth. Trade for Jalen Rose and Travis Best, sign Donyell Marshall and a bunch of Garrett Temples in Hoiberg, Anthony, Blount, Brunson, etc.

It did jacksh*t but cost them a top-5 pick in one of the greatest drafts ever.

If you're good at basketball, you're good at basketball. Simple as that. Pat sure doesn't seem to need any vets to teach him how to immediately play higher IQ basketball than all the other young guys on this team.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#63 » by yifsuibfe1 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:16 pm

Why are so many people bringing up Maxey, Thybulle, FRP as a package for Lavine as if Daryl Morey wouldn't laugh at that.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#64 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:20 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
cjbulls wrote:The 2000 Bulls had Brad Miller (24), Elton Brand (21), Ron Artest (21) and Jamal Crawford (20) all on the same team. Three of them went on to be all stars and they also have one DPOY (and multiple all defense teams) and multiple 6MOY awards. But they were broken up in favor of another tank rebuild. Ages of the current starting lineup are 20, 25, 19, 23, 20.

And sticking with that team would have been a giant pile of mediocre crap for years. Brand played with decent talent in LA (Kaman, Cassell, Maggette, Mobley, etc.) and had literally ONE winning season.

And the Bulls matched that season just a few years later on the backs of their young draft picks in Chandler, Curry, Gordon, Hinrich, Deng. All of them a top-7 pick with little experience (literally none, in Gordon and Deng's case).


So 3 all-stars, a DPOY and multi-6MOY is a mediocre pile of crap? I don't think they win a championship, but they become a legitimate good team with other potential flexibility from future free agency and future drafts. The point was you sold low on all that talent because you didn't invest in devloping it.

That future roster had one player make an all-star game, no DPOY and one fleeting 6MOY. And that was a perennial 4-7 seed team.

If you play championship or bust, it will be almost impossible to win a championship. As has been covered many teams, none of the good teams the last 20 years started out as championship or bust. They grew a team.

Leslie Forman wrote:
cjbulls wrote:Lost in all the ridiculous PW is Kawhi, Paul George and Jimmy Butler all wrapped into one, is that all 3 started their career on decent teams and were able to grow up learning from other players that had talent and knew how to win. Most young players need a good environment to excel, but you want to tank all that and pray instead.

This is exactly what Krause tried with the Baby Bulls. Sign experienced vets to lead the youth. Trade for Jalen Rose and Travis Best, sign Donyell Marshall and a bunch of Garrett Temples in Hoiberg, Anthony, Blount, Brunson, etc.

It did jacksh*t but cost them a top-5 pick in one of the greatest drafts ever.

If you're good at basketball, you're good at basketball. Simple as that. Pat sure doesn't seem to need any vets to teach him how to immediately play higher IQ basketball than all the other young guys on this team.


It's clearly not that simple. The NBA is littered with top picks who didn't make it. So all of them weren't good at basketball? Most players needs the right environment. Butler credits all his vets for teaching him the game, same for Kawhi.

Butler played with all stars Deng, Rose, Boozer and Noah. George played with all stars Granger and West. Kawhi came up with hall of games Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. And they represent the three of the biggest leaps that a player has made from draft to stardom in the last decade. You think that was all a coincidence?

Krause acquired vets that didn't have a real interest in playing for that tank train, which is not the current situation because the Bulls aren't tanking. Jalen Rose jokes now about how much he didn't care when he was playing for the Bulls.

The only reason Pat is having success right now is that he plays with other good players and can be the 5th option. Put him on a tank squad and he would look terrible. His confidence would be shot from all the turnovers/misses and he wouldn't understand the strengths of his game and/or how to expand them.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#65 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:22 pm

yifsuibfe1 wrote:Why are so many people bringing up Maxey, Thybulle, FRP as a package for Lavine as if Daryl Morey wouldn't laugh at that.


LaVine would be on the 76ers this morning if that was the offer.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#66 » by Jcool0 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:32 pm

cjbulls wrote:
yifsuibfe1 wrote:Why are so many people bringing up Maxey, Thybulle, FRP as a package for Lavine as if Daryl Morey wouldn't laugh at that.


LaVine would be on the 76ers this morning if that was the offer.


Bulls would hang up on that offer.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#67 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
yifsuibfe1 wrote:Why are so many people bringing up Maxey, Thybulle, FRP as a package for Lavine as if Daryl Morey wouldn't laugh at that.


LaVine would be on the 76ers this morning if that was the offer.


Bulls would hang up on that offer.


That’s what I’m saying
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#68 » by gobullschi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:02 pm

cjbulls wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote: Giving Zach LaVine $200 million would be so bad, it'd end up with some new CBA rule named after his contract.


If you think locking up a 25+PPG efficient scorer for the peak years of his career would be the worst contract ever, I have reason to suspect you dont pay much attention to the rest of the NBA.

The Bulls have no plans for their cap space in the immediate future. There are no free agents coming here. There is a minimum team salary that is 90% of the cap so you need to spend something anyways. Retain your talent and grow your roster (with of course necessary trades to better reshape, which may include Zach).

Nba players on third contracts are all overpaid. That’s NBA life. At least with Zach you get a guy with a good injury history, that has improved every year, and works hard even in the most bleak of situations. In other words, he’s a safe bet to not tank the contract which is the only bad scenario to come out of one of these deals. Otherwise, he just becomes another overpaid contract that can be easily dealt in a few years.


His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#69 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:17 pm

gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#70 » by gobullschi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:29 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.


There was just a report saying he wanted to sign a three year 80 million dollar extension.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#71 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:11 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.


The extension maxes at 5 years no matter what. So if he signs it next offseason he can only get 4 new years since he has one year left on his deal.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#72 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:36 pm

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownja02.html

Jaylen Brown, PER by year:
10.3
13.6
13.5
16.9
24.2 (only a few games)

Brown was literal crap for his first few years. Its one of the major problems with the tank treadmill. You frequently give up on players way too early. Its a cautionary tale for Lauri haters like myself.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#73 » by gobullschi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:41 pm

cjbulls wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.


The extension maxes at 5 years no matter what. So if he signs it next offseason he can only get 4 new years since he has one year left on his deal.


Hopefully AK can get him extended ASAP.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#74 » by troza » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:46 pm

coldfish wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownja02.html

Jaylen Brown, PER by year:
10.3
13.6
13.5
16.9
24.2 (only a few games)

Brown was literal crap for his first few years. Its one of the major problems with the tank treadmill. You frequently give up on players way too early. Its a cautionary tale for Lauri haters like myself.


Oh just the source of false hope for the Lauri defenders. :lol:

(I'm not a bid defender of him but I'm not a hater so... I hope he still has success).
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#75 » by MGB8 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:55 pm

cjbulls wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.


The extension maxes at 5 years no matter what. So if he signs it next offseason he can only get 4 new years since he has one year left on his deal.


I think you are talking across each other. FAs with different tenures have access to different "max" percentages of the cap, with the 7+ year max being 30% of the cap, as opposed to the 0-6 year max of 25% of the cap.

That's different from a veteran contract extension, which limits the raise on the extension. If LaVine was willing to sign a veteran contract extension at the max increase, the Bulls should be running to him with the contract paperwork.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#76 » by BigJimFinn » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:58 pm

cjbulls wrote:
BigJimFinn wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Max contracts aren't just for go-to guys on title teams. On almost every team, the top two guys are max guys


And almost every team are not contenders. Giving 30% max contracts to non-superstars, or 35% max to already fading non-winning superstars, is surest way to fix your ceiling below the top level.


Bulls can’t get out of the bottom level and you’re fixated on ceiling.

There are no ceiling limitations anymore because every big contract can be traded. Virtually every “terrible” contract has been moved in the last 24 months. Wiggins, Wall, Otto, Horford, Chris Paul (three times!)


Right. And how many of the teams that traded those guys away, adding Westbrook to the list, managed to raise their ceiling, never mind become contenders? Boston perhaps, and that is because they have two young core stars on value contracts. There are enough bad contracts in the NBA that you can always shift them around, expending other assets and without really improving your position. To actually become good you need core players who perform above their contract cost. Either true superstars on max, young players on limited contracts, or ring-chasing vets; preferably all of those.

And I have no problem with your conclusion that LaVine will get a max contract with his offensive production, I find that highly likely. I also have no problem, if Bulls fans are OK with that capping them to a playoff also-ran, which clearly would be a welcome improvement. Just stating that Bulls or any other team giving LaVine a free-agent max deal at 30% will not become a contender.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#77 » by MGB8 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.


There was just a report saying he wanted to sign a three year 80 million dollar extension.


I hope that's the case. Three more years at ~24M, ~26.3 and ~29M - that gets you to the 80M - would be a good value.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#78 » by BigJimFinn » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:08 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
gobullschi wrote:His next contract is maxed out at 125% of the last year of his contract. Zach LaVine will be a bargain even on his 3rd contract.

It is not. That's only as an extension, not a new free agent deal.

He will be eligible for the 7+year vet max. Which would be absolutely crippling financially.


There was just a report saying he wanted to sign a three year 80 million dollar extension.


I would like to see a source for that. In the Cowley article, he just says that LaVine and the team could have agreed on that extension, which is factually correct, and manages to imply that the team messed up not agreeing to it, without actually claiming LaVine would have. Cowley clearly knows his readers and their demand for anything that makes the Bulls management look bad, and now with the new front office in place he just needs to work more insidiously to find that mud to sling.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#79 » by greenl » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:14 pm

coldfish wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownja02.html

Jaylen Brown, PER by year:
10.3
13.6
13.5
16.9
24.2 (only a few games)

Brown was literal crap for his first few years. Its one of the major problems with the tank treadmill. You frequently give up on players way too early. Its a cautionary tale for Lauri haters like myself.



I'd be curious how many players who had sub 15 PER in their 1st 3 seasons (assuming a minimum number of minutes played)- became at least 17+ PER players for the duration of their careers. At least, statistically- you would have an idea when to cut bait.
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Re: The Bulls should rebuild now. 

Post#80 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:20 pm

If Lakers only have 3 future first round picks, they are nearly perfect for Lavine,Phila cames close second. It is mainly oportunistic approach with Lavine and timeline. Stars aligned for us to be able to aquire some young players who can be realy good on value rookie deals, future frp-s and opportunity to select game changer in next draft. Many times draft is crap shot and non guarantee so as loterry, but my eye test sees Suggs in Rose mode, popular phrase built different, Green as high school Kobe, Cade ad Simmons type, Mobley as Bosh, Kumminga as Giannis light, even those kids Boston and Zaire Williams looking like Ingram, high school TMac types. To much talent to risk, to go all in with Lavine and play in tournament to lose to Pacers and that whole thing ends up with 12 pick and Moses Moody. I would personally ship Lavine for rookie deals and picks, go to draft with 2 lottery picks and enough cap space to take expiring bad contracts for assets. There is hughe difference between Carter and Doncic/Young, White and Zion/Ja Morant or Kirk Hinrich and James/Wade/Anthony/Bosh. I want Sam Prestie strategy not freakinn John Paxson conservative approach and some Forman guy from Iowa (although Haliburton would be nice). Give me alpha and highflyer typhe like Jordan,Kobe,Rose in maybe Green,Suggs not Ricky Davis,Monta Ellis typhe athlete in Lavine.

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