Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks)

[dougthonus]

Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.

He's available at a price that likely vastly exceeds his talent and only if we shed players that are of similar caliber.

You tellin' me there's a much better upgrade out there that we're ignoring? I would love to have a better option.

No. I'm telling you that it is 50/50 whether Ball is an upgrade at all, and if he is an upgrade then it isn't a meaningful one, particularly based on the pricetag and other players you would need to let go to sign him.

So who's your alternative? Bring up the big name equivalent to Mitchell or Murray, who also happens to be available. I'll cheer for that move transpiring same as you.

I'm not convinced Ball improves this team at all compared to the cost of letting Sato/Lauri go and paying him enough that you can't chase anyone in 2022 FA.

And what's with this "similar caliber" stuff? Coby is a tier below Lonzo right now and for the next 2-3 years minimum. Your view seems to be from the 19-20 season. Last summer, Lonzo and Coby were basically even. Lonzo couldn't score and Coby couldn't defend. The situation has changed. Lonzo's brought his game up to be a legit two way starter on the floor. Lonzo can pass and limit turnovers. Coby can't do either of those things. Lonzo can play good defense. Coby can't and probably never will. And this year, the most crucial change happened-- Lonzo's scoring on greater efficiency, with a slightly better field goal percentage and a much better three ball.

I agree that Lonzo is better than Coby defensively. Offensively, I'm not really sure that's true. At the cost both in dollars and renouncing other players, I don't think the overall roster is upgraded by acquiring him in the scenarios that I see as reasonable.

You may tell me that you expect Coby, a former #6 pick in the NBA draft, to eventually catch up to Lonzo and surpass him. That's a wonderful expectation. Coby, with his straight line speed and potential as a scorer, is an impressive prospective. But Vooch is 30. Do do we really have time to wait around and see if Coby gets it together?

In the end, I think I just feel a lot less confident in Lonzo than you. Theoretically, I agree with why the Bulls would consider a win now move. I just don't think Lonzo is a win now move. I don't think the team is any better _at all_ after signing him and renouncing Lauri/Sato to do so.

[sco]

He's available at a price that likely vastly exceeds his talent and only if we shed players that are of similar caliber.

You tellin' me there's a much better upgrade out there that we're ignoring? I would love to have a better option.

No. I'm telling you that it is 50/50 whether Ball is an upgrade at all, and if he is an upgrade then it isn't a meaningful one, particularly based on the pricetag and other players you would need to let go to sign him.

So who's your alternative? Bring up the big name equivalent to Mitchell or Murray, who also happens to be available. I'll cheer for that move transpiring same as you.

I'm not convinced Ball improves this team at all compared to the cost of letting Sato/Lauri go and paying him enough that you can't chase anyone in 2022 FA.

And what's with this "similar caliber" stuff? Coby is a tier below Lonzo right now and for the next 2-3 years minimum. Your view seems to be from the 19-20 season. Last summer, Lonzo and Coby were basically even. Lonzo couldn't score and Coby couldn't defend. The situation has changed. Lonzo's brought his game up to be a legit two way starter on the floor. Lonzo can pass and limit turnovers. Coby can't do either of those things. Lonzo can play good defense. Coby can't and probably never will. And this year, the most crucial change happened-- Lonzo's scoring on greater efficiency, with a slightly better field goal percentage and a much better three ball.

I agree that Lonzo is better than Coby defensively. Offensively, I'm not really sure that's true. At the cost both in dollars and renouncing other players, I don't think the overall roster is upgraded by acquiring him in the scenarios that I see as reasonable.

You may tell me that you expect Coby, a former #6 pick in the NBA draft, to eventually catch up to Lonzo and surpass him. That's a wonderful expectation. Coby, with his straight line speed and potential as a scorer, is an impressive prospective. But Vooch is 30. Do do we really have time to wait around and see if Coby gets it together?

In the end, I think I just feel a lot less confident in Lonzo than you. Theoretically, I agree with why the Bulls would consider a win now move. I just don't think Lonzo is a win now move. I don't think the team is any better _at all_ after signing him and renouncing Lauri/Sato to do so.

Yeah, I'm coming around on Sato...he's been decent as a starter: 10ppg 6.1ast 2.7rb 1.3 st 2.1 to's shooting 52% and 35% from 3.

I like Ball's defense more, but, like most decisions it comes down to opportunity cost of signing Ball vs. our alternatives.

[Chi town]

You don’t sign Lonzo for who he is. You sign him for who he will be. If he keeps getting marginally better for a couple more seasons you are looking at a Luol Deng level winning player that is the perfect fit for the modern NBA.

Is he hurt? Just avoiding injury because he doesn’t want to play in Nola?

[StunnerKO]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[fleet]

You tellin' me there's a much better upgrade out there that we're ignoring? I would love to have a better option.

No. I'm telling you that it is 50/50 whether Ball is an upgrade at all, and if he is an upgrade then it isn't a meaningful one, particularly based on the pricetag and other players you would need to let go to sign him.

So who's your alternative? Bring up the big name equivalent to Mitchell or Murray, who also happens to be available. I'll cheer for that move transpiring same as you.

I'm not convinced Ball improves this team at all compared to the cost of letting Sato/Lauri go and paying him enough that you can't chase anyone in 2022 FA.

And what's with this "similar caliber" stuff? Coby is a tier below Lonzo right now and for the next 2-3 years minimum. Your view seems to be from the 19-20 season. Last summer, Lonzo and Coby were basically even. Lonzo couldn't score and Coby couldn't defend. The situation has changed. Lonzo's brought his game up to be a legit two way starter on the floor. Lonzo can pass and limit turnovers. Coby can't do either of those things. Lonzo can play good defense. Coby can't and probably never will. And this year, the most crucial change happened-- Lonzo's scoring on greater efficiency, with a slightly better field goal percentage and a much better three ball.

I agree that Lonzo is better than Coby defensively. Offensively, I'm not really sure that's true. At the cost both in dollars and renouncing other players, I don't think the overall roster is upgraded by acquiring him in the scenarios that I see as reasonable.

You may tell me that you expect Coby, a former #6 pick in the NBA draft, to eventually catch up to Lonzo and surpass him. That's a wonderful expectation. Coby, with his straight line speed and potential as a scorer, is an impressive prospective. But Vooch is 30. Do do we really have time to wait around and see if Coby gets it together?

In the end, I think I just feel a lot less confident in Lonzo than you. Theoretically, I agree with why the Bulls would consider a win now move. I just don't think Lonzo is a win now move. I don't think the team is any better _at all_ after signing him and renouncing Lauri/Sato to do so.

Yeah, I'm coming around on Sato...he's been decent as a starter: 10ppg 6.1ast 2.7rb 1.3 st 2.1 to's shooting 52% and 35% from 3.

I like Ball's defense more, but, like most decisions it comes down to opportunity cost of signing Ball vs. our alternatives.

You can come around on Sato, but we’re also talking about a player 7 years younger with more upside to tap.

[WindyCityBorn]

Read on Twitter

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Target #1 for sure. I’d renounce Sato(who I would love to keep as a backup) and Lauri for him.

[Chi town]

Nice game. It was the Rockets keep in mind.

[ZOMG]

You think Lonzo will happily be the 3rd option in Chicago, with the ball out of his hands?

[WindyCityBorn]

You think Lonzo will happily be the 3rd option in Chicago, with the ball out of his hands?

Sato runs our offense. Why would Lonzo’s role be any different? We have pretty strong indication that Chicago is one of his preferred destinations so yeah I think he would be fine with it.

[Hugi Mancura]

Will Bulls offer more than Knicks and does Lonzo have to accept Bulls offer over Knicks offer if Bulls offer is higher?

Lonzo's goal was to put Bulls and Knicks to a bidding war for him, but I think he prefers Knicks. So if those offers are even near each other I think he will choose Knicks.

Lonzo is better at his age than Lavine was and he can help team win tight games on both ends of the floor. He can still grow and would be growing with PWill, Lavine and others. Off course he carries the same threat as all the young players that he has reached his maximum.

But would I lose Lauri and Sato for hope to get him? I don't think Lonzo will sign with Bulls if he gets offer from Knicks and I do believe he will get one.

[sco]

Will Bulls offer more than Knicks and does Lonzo have to accept Bulls offer over Knicks offer if Bulls offer is higher?

Lonzo's goal was to put Bulls and Knicks to a bidding war for him, but I think he prefers Knicks. So if those offers are even near each other I think he will choose Knicks.

Lonzo is better at his age than Lavine was and he can help team win tight games on both ends of the floor. He can still grow and would be growing with PWill, Lavine and others. Off course he carries the same threat as all the young players that he has reached his maximum.

But would I lose Lauri and Sato for hope to get him? I don't think Lonzo will sign with Bulls if he gets offer from Knicks and I do believe he will get one.

The only reason I think Ball may choose the Bulls over the Knicks is that Quickly is a baller (despite the fact Thib's religion doesn't allow for starting rooks) and (money being equal - which IMO is goals #1-3 for Ball) he might go for the Bulls who have no PG's (assuming Sato is gone). Lauri is gone no matter what, we can only hope to nab a 2nd rounder for the courtesy of a S&T.

[Wingy]

I'm sure other posters have already done this, but I haven't seen it referenced on our board anywhere. Our "Man of the Year" Lonzo Ball from the pov of what appears to be Pelican-obsessed equivalents to ourselves.

I probably read only about half of the thread, but found it very, very interesting. What I noticed was that the talk about Lonzo is incredibly similar to Lauri Markkanen.

I can't judge for myself, but I know Lonzo has a rep as a very solid defensive player (but that takes a hit from a couple posters on page 27 of the Pels thread below). Outside of that, the Lauri/Lonzo similarities are pretty eerie:

- Consistently inconsistent
- Uptick in shooting % this particular season
- Febru-Lonzo....no, they don't use the term, but I saw a reference that he apparently loves February
- Seems like most start to get really queasy when it comes to paying $20mm or above annual (anecdotally, I feel that's the same number for Lauri here)
- "HoustonPelicans" might be his KukocLauri, ZOMG supporter equivalent...as he calls out that Lonzo seems to be checking out due to the org (coach/GM) around him.
- Then what should scare Bulls fans the most when so many are pining for this dude to be our salvation at PG....he isn't a creator

Checkout this post from "Pelicanidae," where I've provided a snippet below.

https://www.pelicansreport.com/showthread.php?90721-You-guys-I-think-we-need-to-pay-Lonzo/page26

Lonzo, by comparison, drives about 5.3 times per game, a bit less than half as often, and as we've also seen he's not likely to actually get a shot up at the rim when he does so. This is part of why so many people have pointed out that Lonzo is not a real half-court creator, he's an off-ball auxiliary player: he provides very little impact when it comes to bending the defense around and creating advantageous situations. He's excellent at making the best out of advantages other people have already created, which is why he's one of the best connectors in the league, but the ability to actually force the defense to react and create a play is something Simmons has and Lonzo simply does not. And it's a valuable skill.

Our own dougthonus pointed out the same in recent memory. That Lonzo's basically not really the PG for them. Sounds like it's not just because they have Point-Zion...and that he's simply not that good at it. The whole "connector" thing seems like it could be a nice idea w/Zach/Vuc...but I think the majority of the board is aligned that we'd really like to see someone take pressure off Zach from being such a primary perimeter ballhandler.

I was already out on Lonzo at a Lauri-like salary, and now I'm even more convinced of that stance. I much prefer they scour the advanced stats, and scouting to find some guy they hope is a hidden gem than throw a boatload of cash at Lonzo.

[jordanwilliams6]

We need to watch Lonzo very carefully over the next 20 games, I'm high on him but he could've just been on a hot steak as players do.

Last 10.
PPG - 12.6
FG% - 34.9%
3fg% - 29.8%

[weneeda2guard]

I really wish we could have traded for ball and got a good look at him for half a season.

I dont know if he is only playing for a big contract then he goes back to his deer in headlights play that can't shoot or if he was really improving and his inevitable departure plus being tired of SVG has made him kinda check out. But he is back to playing poorly and I don't want to hand this guy 20 plus mill per season to watch a guy who is not aggressive can't shoot free throws or 3s never breaks a defense down and disappears offensively for crucial parts of the game.

I really am starting to feel demar derozan is the player we need to bring in.

[WindyCityBorn]

I really wish we could have traded for ball and got a good look at him for half a season.

I dont know if he is only playing for a big contract then he goes back to his deer in headlights play that can't shoot or if he was really improving and his inevitable departure plus being tired of SVG has made him kinda check out. But he is back to playing poorly and I don't want to hand this guy 20 plus mill per season to watch a guy who is not aggressive can't shoot free throws or 3s never breaks a defense down and disappears offensively for crucial parts of the game.

I really am starting to feel demar derozan is the player we need to bring in.

How would we get Derozan? Sign and trade Markkanen?

[weneeda2guard]

I really wish we could have traded for ball and got a good look at him for half a season.

I dont know if he is only playing for a big contract then he goes back to his deer in headlights play that can't shoot or if he was really improving and his inevitable departure plus being tired of SVG has made him kinda check out. But he is back to playing poorly and I don't want to hand this guy 20 plus mill per season to watch a guy who is not aggressive can't shoot free throws or 3s never breaks a defense down and disappears offensively for crucial parts of the game.

I really am starting to feel demar derozan is the player we need to bring in.

How would we get Derozan? Sign and trade Markkanen?

Yea that's my hope

[sco]

I really wish we could have traded for ball and got a good look at him for half a season.

I dont know if he is only playing for a big contract then he goes back to his deer in headlights play that can't shoot or if he was really improving and his inevitable departure plus being tired of SVG has made him kinda check out. But he is back to playing poorly and I don't want to hand this guy 20 plus mill per season to watch a guy who is not aggressive can't shoot free throws or 3s never breaks a defense down and disappears offensively for crucial parts of the game.

I really am starting to feel demar derozan is the player we need to bring in.

How would we get Derozan? Sign and trade Markkanen?

Yea that's my hope

You guys need to give up on the illusion that Lauri gets us anything via S&T.

I still like Ball as a 3-D player to plug in with Zach and Vuc, but I think he's gonna be priced above our ability to find cap space (without gutting our roster, which IMO, hurts more than it helps). I agree he's probably in the Lauri tier of players who are in the 20th-30th best starters at their position, with upside to get to 15th or so. That $20M price tag is high for that level, IMO, but it is entirely likely this offseason due to supply and demand.

[weneeda2guard]

How would we get Derozan? Sign and trade Markkanen?

Yea that's my hope

You guys need to give up on the illusion that Lauri gets us anything via S&T.

I still like Ball as a 3-D player to plug in with Zach and Vuc, but I think he's gonna be priced above our ability to find cap space (without gutting our roster, which IMO, hurts more than it helps). I agree he's probably in the Lauri tier of players who are in the 20th-30th best starters at their position, with upside to get to 15th or so. That $20M price tag is high for that level, IMO, but it is entirely likely this offseason due to supply and demand.

We have a bit of leverage with lauri because he is a rfa. So if San Antonio really wants lauri to avoid us matching their offer sheet, they may be persuaded to do a sign and trade If we can convince demar to come here.

We can also clear the space to sign derozan possibly back end increase his salary so we can sign him slightly below the apron so we can have access to our exceptions then bring theis back with our mle and bring temple back with our Bae. It's possible.

[MikeDC]

How would we get Derozan? Sign and trade Markkanen?

Yea that's my hope

You guys need to give up on the illusion that Lauri gets us anything via S&T.

I still like Ball as a 3-D player to plug in with Zach and Vuc, but I think he's gonna be priced above our ability to find cap space (without gutting our roster, which IMO, hurts more than it helps). I agree he's probably in the Lauri tier of players who are in the 20th-30th best starters at their position, with upside to get to 15th or so. That $20M price tag is high for that level, IMO, but it is entirely likely this offseason due to supply and demand.

The cost for the Bulls is really high because to get to that $20M we have to
1. Renounce Lauri
2. Renounce Theis
3. Buyout Sato
4. Buyout Thad

(Only doing 1-3 only gets us to about $17.5M in cap space figuring a cap of about $112.5M, which is what is currently projected for next year). That is, we basically are giving up 4 players and a bunch of money for 1 guy. Granted they're 4 mediocre players, but honestly so is Ball.

If AKME's heart is really set on Ball, they should have just given up whatever protected pick would have gotten it done so we could keep around Theis and Thad, and then also had the MLE to offer up over the summer. As it stands, we're burning through a whole lot of assets.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

We need to watch Lonzo very carefully over the next 20 games, I'm high on him but he could've just been on a hot steak as players do.

Last 10.
PPG - 12.6
FG% - 34.9%
3fg% - 29.8%

Honestly, this is the drop in production likely needed for the Bulls to have a shot at getting him, especially in a Lauri S&T.