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Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks)

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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1161 » by ZOMG » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:41 pm

dougthonus wrote:Weird to me people are so much higher on Ball than Coby that they want to pay him 3x as much and give up other assets. I don't think Ball moves the needle much at all. He's playing with two great players now and their team sucks and they don't run him at PG.


Pelicans have absolutely zero need for Lonzo at this point. Zion & Ingram handle the ball and Kira Lewis Jr is a better and quicker point guard than him anyway.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1162 » by dougthonus » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:05 pm

Ice Man wrote:
dougthonus wrote:Weird to me people are so much higher on Ball than Coby that they want to pay him 3x as much and give up other assets. I don't think Ball moves the needle much at all. He's playing with two great players now and their team sucks and they don't run him at PG.


Yeah, my general rule is that if a guy is the 3rd best player on a losing team, how much value does he really bring? One positive for Lonzo, though, is that he took his game forward this year. He's not so old that he couldn't do that again, and if he so, then he truly would be worth a major contract.


He took his game forward because they stopped playing him on the ball and made him an off-ball player. That's a pretty scary thought given we want to solve the PG problem by bringing in a guy that doesn't actually really run their offense and improved by having that responsibility taken away from him.

If we want a guy that isn't going to excel at PG but can now hit spot up three point shots, then we already have Coby White. I don't hate Lonzo, but I think people have decided in their head that Lonzo is a different player than he is and is better than he is. They treat him like a PG savant with other flaws, but actually he failed as a PG and has blossomed by not facilitating the offense.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1163 » by Ice Man » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:07 pm

dougthonus wrote:If we want a guy that isn't going to excel at PG but can now hit spot up three point shots, then we already have Coby White.


That is my general thought as well, although Lonzo's defense would be a big improvement. But at what cost? I'd prefer that we aim for a higher-impact player.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1164 » by dougthonus » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:12 pm

Ice Man wrote:That is my general thought as well, although Lonzo's defense would be a big improvement. But at what cost? I'd prefer that we aim for a higher-impact player.


Agree that Lonzo's defense would help us and also agree that we should aim higher. If you are looking at him for defense, I think you could just bring in a true defensive stopper instead. If he's really a 3 and D guy and he offense basically really runs through LaVine/Vuc, then I think you can look for non PG options to do that better. I guess you probably still want some ball skills with him, but I think this would mirror setups of Denver/Utah, where Murray/Mitchell aren't necessarily amazing PGs but are scoring guards with an elite big next to them. Vuc being more like Jokic whom can handle a decent amount of passing/offense initiation should limit your need for that out of your other perimeter players.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1165 » by chefo » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:05 pm

If you're talking perfect fit, Lonzo is not it. Why?

He only creates on the break. I've watched enough of the guy and he doesn't break down a defense, never has and probably never will. He doesn't drive, he doesn't cut that much either. Watching highlights of a guy who's been in the NBA for 4 years is pointless--even the biggest scrubs can have a 10-minute mix tape.

So what makes him worth $20M... and more specifically, what on Earth makes him worth $20M to the Bulls?

He's NOT a lead creator.

If you want a 3&D point, go get one--I suspect they won't cost $20M per. Ideally, the PG (and SF) of the team is a player the opposing D has to respect. Right now, they don't--and while Sato is a great 5th cog, he's nowhere near aggressive enough a shooter, or driver, to punish teams for taking it easy on him. He's a reluctant shooter--ideally, you need a bomber who'll let it fly 7 times a night and not overthink it... and drive it, if they play him tight. A speedy guy like Fox, for example, would kill teams if he has Vuc and Lauri in the frontcourt and Zach next to him. You're obviously not getting him, but that's the other kind of player you need--somebody the D has to be a little afraid of from 3, and who can just blow by for a layup.

If you bring a ball dominant player like Lonzo who's NOT an aggressive player, you're simply taking the ball out of (healthy) Zach's hands for no perceived benefit.

I mean, kudos to Lonzo's marketing team and agent. They've somehow managed to convince at least some people that a thoroughly mediocre, replacement-level player who's never won or done much of anything in his entire 4-year career is somehow worth 20M per.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1166 » by Ice Man » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:29 pm

chefo wrote:I mean, kudos to Lonzo's marketing team and agent. They've somehow managed to convince at least some people that a thoroughly mediocre, replacement-level player who's never won or done much of anything in his entire 4-year career is somehow worth 20M per.


The guy was the #2 overall draft pick after being outscored 39 to 10 by his opponent in his final NCAA game. Lonzo is very, very accustomed to being overmarketed.

Now LaMelo ... it turns out that he was an entirely different story. Sure fooled me.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1167 » by TheJordanRule » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:18 pm

dougthonus wrote:Weird to me people are so much higher on Ball than Coby that they want to pay him 3x as much and give up other assets. I don't think Ball moves the needle much at all. He's playing with two great players now and their team sucks and they don't run him at PG.


Lonzo fixed what was the biggest knock on him-- his broken shot, and Lonzo is in an offense where he's the third ball handler, which may be hiding Lonzo's biggest strength as a facilitator. Coby's biggest knock is defense, which remains a work in progress, while Coby's biggest strength-- his shot-- is still developing (and behind Lonzo's in efficiency, both from FG and 3 PT range). Coby's distribution skills are also still developing. He's still doing that young guard stuff where he turns the ball over fairly frequently and when he's featured as the playmaker, he doesn't demonstrate great court vision. I like Coby, but we've shifted the win now window from 5-7 years in the future to literally win right now. I don't see how Coby's a big part of that given how raw he is. Ideally, I'd like to keep Coby, but if the choice is between keeping Coby while hoarding cap space to maintain flexibility, or trading Coby for Lonzo and losing all that cap space and flexibility, I'm opting for the Lonzo option. The flexibility option has worn thin, after 20 years of a whole lot of flexibility, raw prospects, pipe dreaming and failure.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1168 » by TheJordanRule » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:22 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Ice Man wrote:That is my general thought as well, although Lonzo's defense would be a big improvement. But at what cost? I'd prefer that we aim for a higher-impact player.


Agree that Lonzo's defense would help us and also agree that we should aim higher. If you are looking at him for defense, I think you could just bring in a true defensive stopper instead. If he's really a 3 and D guy and he offense basically really runs through LaVine/Vuc, then I think you can look for non PG options to do that better. I guess you probably still want some ball skills with him, but I think this would mirror setups of Denver/Utah, where Murray/Mitchell aren't necessarily amazing PGs but are scoring guards with an elite big next to them. Vuc being more like Jokic whom can handle a decent amount of passing/offense initiation should limit your need for that out of your other perimeter players.


Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1169 » by sco » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:26 pm

Ice Man wrote:
dougthonus wrote:Weird to me people are so much higher on Ball than Coby that they want to pay him 3x as much and give up other assets. I don't think Ball moves the needle much at all. He's playing with two great players now and their team sucks and they don't run him at PG.


Yeah, my general rule is that if a guy is the 3rd best player on a losing team, how much value does he really bring? One positive for Lonzo, though, is that he took his game forward this year. He's not so old that he couldn't do that again, and if he so, then he truly would be worth a major contract.

Coby and Ball are very different IMO. What intrigues me about Ball is that he is a good, and improving defender, while also a decent ball handler and improving 3pt shooter. Coby is a decent catch and shoot guy, but has a high, sloppy dribble and tunnel vision - on defense he definitely tries, but he's not able to fight through screens and his arms are too short for steals/blocks. The better question, IMO, is how much better Ball is than Sato - who I like, and who I think will look even better with another scorer...Sato is a great 5th option scorer, but will always struggle to shoot 10 shots a game.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1170 » by gobullschi » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:27 pm

TheJordanRule wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Ice Man wrote:That is my general thought as well, although Lonzo's defense would be a big improvement. But at what cost? I'd prefer that we aim for a higher-impact player.


Agree that Lonzo's defense would help us and also agree that we should aim higher. If you are looking at him for defense, I think you could just bring in a true defensive stopper instead. If he's really a 3 and D guy and he offense basically really runs through LaVine/Vuc, then I think you can look for non PG options to do that better. I guess you probably still want some ball skills with him, but I think this would mirror setups of Denver/Utah, where Murray/Mitchell aren't necessarily amazing PGs but are scoring guards with an elite big next to them. Vuc being more like Jokic whom can handle a decent amount of passing/offense initiation should limit your need for that out of your other perimeter players.


Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.


The only way to “aim higher” would be to package Coby White, Patrick Williams, etc. for that ‘third star’.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1171 » by TheJordanRule » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:58 pm

gobullschi wrote:
TheJordanRule wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Agree that Lonzo's defense would help us and also agree that we should aim higher. If you are looking at him for defense, I think you could just bring in a true defensive stopper instead. If he's really a 3 and D guy and he offense basically really runs through LaVine/Vuc, then I think you can look for non PG options to do that better. I guess you probably still want some ball skills with him, but I think this would mirror setups of Denver/Utah, where Murray/Mitchell aren't necessarily amazing PGs but are scoring guards with an elite big next to them. Vuc being more like Jokic whom can handle a decent amount of passing/offense initiation should limit your need for that out of your other perimeter players.


Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.


The only way to “aim higher” would be to package Coby White, Patrick Williams, etc. for that ‘third star’.


Yeah, that's a great hypothetical move. So make it more real, man-- Coby White and Patrick Williams would land us which ideal third star, in your opinion? It better be someone fantastic if we're throwing in PWill along with Coby. At least with a trade for Lonzo, all we'd be losing would be Coby. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that neither Donovan Mitchell nor Jamal Murray is available for the Coby and PWill package. Is Devin Booking going to come here in exchange for PWill and Coby? Is Jaylen Brown, or Ja? As far as I can tell, the idea that any of those trades would occur is preposterous. So who is this third star, who is totally available for the Coby PWill package, and who outclasses Lonzo? We can talk about abstract hypotheticals all day, but it's harder when we then have to match players who actually exist with those hypotheticals.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1172 » by dougthonus » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:11 pm

TheJordanRule wrote:Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.


He's available at a price that likely vastly exceeds his talent and only if we shed players that are of similar caliber.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1173 » by sco » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:13 pm

TheJordanRule wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
TheJordanRule wrote:
Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.


The only way to “aim higher” would be to package Coby White, Patrick Williams, etc. for that ‘third star’.


Yeah, that's a great hypothetical move. So make it more real, man-- Coby White and Patrick Williams would land us which ideal third star, in your opinion? It better be someone fantastic if we're throwing in PWill along with Coby. At least with a trade for Lonzo, all we'd be losing would be Coby. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that neither Donovan Mitchell nor Jamal Murray is available for the Coby and PWill package. Is Devin Booking going to come here in exchange for PWill and Coby? Is Jaylen Brown, or Ja? As far as I can tell, the idea that any of those trades would occur is preposterous. So who is this third star, who is totally available for the Coby PWill package, and who outclasses Lonzo? We can talk about abstract hypotheticals all day, but it's harder when we then have to match players who actually exist with those hypotheticals.

I'll start by saying it's not enough to land a near-allstar based on their recent performances...if they both come on strong down the stretch, guys like Siakam or Grant MIGHT be possible if they start complaining about wanting to leave.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1174 » by gobullschi » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:15 pm

TheJordanRule wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
TheJordanRule wrote:
Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.


The only way to “aim higher” would be to package Coby White, Patrick Williams, etc. for that ‘third star’.


Yeah, that's a great hypothetical move. So make it more real, man-- Coby White and Patrick Williams would land us which ideal third star, in your opinion? It better be someone fantastic if we're throwing in PWill along with Coby. At least with a trade for Lonzo, all we'd be losing would be Coby. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that neither Donovan Mitchell nor Jamal Murray is available for the Coby and PWill package. Is Devin Booking going to come here in exchange for PWill and Coby? Is Jaylen Brown, or Ja? As far as I can tell, the idea that any of those trades would occur is preposterous. So who is this third star, who is totally available for the Coby PWill package, and who outclasses Lonzo? We can talk about abstract hypotheticals all day, but it's harder when we then have to match players who actually exist with those hypotheticals.


Damien Lilliard? Honestly, I don’t think there is a third star currently available, but things change fast in the NBA. Maybe one emerges by the end of the season.

My dream offseason contains 2 trades:
1.) S&T Markkanen for DeRozan
2.) White + Aminu + Arci for Lonzo Ball (via S&T)

Ball / Sato
LaVine / Brown
DeRozan / Williams / Brown
Williams / Young
Vucevic / Simonovic
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1175 » by DJhitek » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:44 pm

Trading Markennen for Ball would have been totally fine in my book. I think Ball would be an ideal fit here but yeah, I don’t think he will be worth the money he is looking for in the long run.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1176 » by HOTCARL_o » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:27 pm

Someone said here but the Knicks going to Knick and offer this man a Max contract. I'm good on that.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1177 » by TheJordanRule » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:29 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheJordanRule wrote:Aim higher at which player? Lonzo is available. I don't see a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray equivalent widely available out there on the open market.


He's available at a price that likely vastly exceeds his talent and only if we shed players that are of similar caliber.


You tellin' me there's a much better upgrade out there that we're ignoring? I would love to have a better option. So who's your alternative? Bring up the big name equivalent to Mitchell or Murray, who also happens to be available. I'll cheer for that move transpiring same as you.

And what's with this "similar caliber" stuff? Coby is a tier below Lonzo right now and for the next 2-3 years minimum. Your view seems to be from the 19-20 season. Last summer, Lonzo and Coby were basically even. Lonzo couldn't score and Coby couldn't defend. The situation has changed. Lonzo's brought his game up to be a legit two way starter on the floor. Lonzo can pass and limit turnovers. Coby can't do either of those things. Lonzo can play good defense. Coby can't and probably never will. And this year, the most crucial change happened-- Lonzo's scoring on greater efficiency, with a slightly better field goal percentage and a much better three ball.

You may tell me that you expect Coby, a former #6 pick in the NBA draft, to eventually catch up to Lonzo and surpass him. That's a wonderful expectation. Coby, with his straight line speed and potential as a scorer, is an impressive prospective. But Vooch is 30. Do do we really have time to wait around and see if Coby gets it together?
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1178 » by Wingy » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:16 pm

The new Arron Afflalo. I completely forgot about that guy til I was searching for an old post, and saw his name.

The good, but not great player the board obsesses, and lusts for in his own overly long thread...and then mentions throughout other threads in a constant, unwavering saturation of Afflaloness.

Welcome to this rarified air, Mr. Ball.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1179 » by weneeda2guard » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:20 pm

Wingy wrote:The new Arron Afflalo. I completely forgot about that guy til I was searching for an old post, and saw his name.

The good, but not great player the board obsesses, and lusts for in his own overly long thread...and then mentions throughout other threads in a constant, unwavering saturation of Afflaloness.

Welcome to this rarified air, Mr. Ball.

I blame Kendrick lamar for the aaron afflalo obsession lol
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#1180 » by Hugi Mancura » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:34 pm

Players like Lonzo or Lauri or any other player who is at end of their rookie contracts don't get paid for what they are worth at the moment. They are paid what they might be in year or two or four. Lavine was probably worth 10M when he signed the 19.5M offer sheet with Sacramento and Bulls were forced to match. Was Lavine a good signing at the moment? No. Is he worth the signing now? I would say majority of the Bulls fans say he is. There is always the risk of player not getting better, but bonus with Lonzo is he will always be a good defender. Something Coby will never be. So even if Lonzo fails to produce on offense he can still help the team. He won't be worth the money. Yes, signing Lonzo or any young player is a risk, high risk. But if you have balls to do that you someday find yourself a Lavine caliber player playing for 20M or Steph Curry playing for 10M.

Signing only scorers on high money and expect to get defenders cheap is a root to destruction.

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