Image ImageImage Image

NBA Trade Thread # 3

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper

MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1761 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:51 pm

MGB8 wrote:Back to trades, I think I have a two trade plan for a "win now" mode that is realistic and would make the Bulls, if not quite contenders, a dangerous team that no one would want to play.

First is the Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade that I've been pushing for a while. Second is a Thad + Sato (and maybe a future 2nd rounder, but not sure it would be needed) for Ricky Rubio + Hernangomez swap.

(snipped)



On the Derozan trade - you'd have to overpay Derozan for his age and projected play level for a guy who will be turning 32 before next season starts. That said, Derozan is playing at maybe the best level of his career in terms of overall impact, and seems to be very good at taking care of his body.

So I went to look at some other players who came in with elite athleticism and took good care of their bodies to see when they declined. Vince Carter was still elite his year 32 season. He did decline the following year to merely an "good" player at 33, but that also came coupled with a move to the Stan Van Gundy, Dwight Howard Magic. It clearly wasn't working there and early next season he was traded to Phoenix, then left for Dallas after that, but the bottom line is that he wasn't the same.

Dwyane Wade is another good comp (who also didn't shoot the 3 well). He was 35 when he came to the Bulls and while he put up good stats and wasn't really done until the following season -- and fit issues limited his effectiveness, you could see that he wasn't the same player he had been. That said, he was still pretty darn good his 32, 33, and 34 year old seasons, the first being the last "cHeatles" season, the next two where Wade was carrying a middling Heat team with Bosh injuries, etc.

Grant Hill came back from injury at 32 and was excellent, but got hurt again and declined into into more "solid starter." Interestingly, he's a guy who never shot well from 3... until he was 37 years old.

Our own Scottie Pippen was very good at 32 (first year post Michael), but hurt, and he was never the same after that (though solid enough in Houston and the first year in Portland).

I looked at Shawn Marion and Jason Richardson, but both had clear declines before hitting 30. Ditto McGrady. None were playing like Derozan is playing at 31.

On the high end, our own Michael Jeffrey Jordan was still putting up elite production in his year 32, 33 and 34 seasons.. Championships 4, 5 and 6. Then he retired so we didn't see if there would be a drop-off... when he came back at 38 and 39 years old, he still put up pretty darn good production for the Wiz (I was actually kind of surprised, looking at the stats), but it was clearly not the same MJ. Lebron has similarly not really subject to much decline 32-33-34. Neither did Kobe. Neither did Clyde.

Bottom line - sign Derozan and absent injury, you're still likely to get a really high level player next season. The following two seasons would be riskier, but the likely downside wouldn't be a complete drop-off, but instead overpaying a "solid/above-average" starter, with some chance that you don't see that much decrease in production...

Worth the gamble, IMO, if the goal is to win now.
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1762 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:01 pm

MGB8 wrote:Back to trades, I think I have a two trade plan for a "win now" mode that is realistic and would make the Bulls, if not quite contenders, a dangerous team that no one would want to play.

First is the Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade that I've been pushing for a while. Second is a Thad + Sato (and maybe a future 2nd rounder, but not sure it would be needed) for Ricky Rubio + Hernangomez swap.

(snipped)



On the proposed Thad/Sato for Rubio/Hernagomez trade... I think that's one the Wolves make.

Rubio didn't fit with Russell and is having a down year, especially shooting. Between Russell, Edwards, and Beasley (if they keep him), they really don't need a ball dominant PG... they need a secondary player who barely ever handles or distributes but instead moves the ball when it comes to him, and shoots well from 3 when open. That's Sato. He's only a year younger than Rubio, but he has a lot less wear on his tread, and is a much better shooter. The talent level might be a decline for Minnesota, but the fit level is much better (though Sato is having a better year than Rubio is right now - so there's risk there for the Bulls - they'd have to do their homework to make sure that Rubio is just having an off year, rather than being a year into irreversible age-related decline).

Hernangomez is another guy who disappointed this year. Thad Young is a much better player, and a much better guy in terms of helping "guide" KAT and Naz and McDaniels. I also think that Jaden McDaniels' play makes Hernangomez's "stretch 4" skillset less valuable.

The trade is basically a wash salary wise - Bulls end up taking on $600-800K or salary - with all four players expiring at the end of next season. So I think Minnesota would likely do the trade if presented. I mentioned a future 2nd rounder being thrown in, but the more that I think about it - with the upgrade from Hernangomez to Thad, plus Rubio's bad season, I don't know that a future 2nd shouldn't actually be coming back to the Bulls. I think as a flat, 4 player trade, it's not only fair, but one that both teams should do for fit purposes.
User avatar
qianlong
Starter
Posts: 2,220
And1: 232
Joined: Jun 07, 2010
 

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1763 » by qianlong » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:05 pm

I am not in love with the idea of trading letting Lauri leave. I think he may flourish on another team, especially if he goes to Dallas or San Antonio. With that said I think at this point it is a given that he will.
Looking at Dallas there is nothing of interest aside from Luka, so at most a TPE. I'm wondering how they are making the playoff, in the west. I know he is just so awesome.
Same can be said about the Spurs.
Based on that I would try a sign and trade for Anunoby or Barnes. Both provide two way forwards who can play both positions and provide some line up flexibility. In this scenario I would be willing to trade a mix of Thad, Sato, Aminu for an improvement at PG and re-sign Theis.
Ball don't lie
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1764 » by sco » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:02 pm

MGB8 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:Back to trades, I think I have a two trade plan for a "win now" mode that is realistic and would make the Bulls, if not quite contenders, a dangerous team that no one would want to play.

First is the Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade that I've been pushing for a while. Second is a Thad + Sato (and maybe a future 2nd rounder, but not sure it would be needed) for Ricky Rubio + Hernangomez swap.

(snipped)



On the proposed Thad/Sato for Rubio/Hernagomez trade... I think that's one the Wolves make.

Rubio didn't fit with Russell and is having a down year, especially shooting. Between Russell, Edwards, and Beasley (if they keep him), they really don't need a ball dominant PG... they need a secondary player who barely ever handles or distributes but instead moves the ball when it comes to him, and shoots well from 3 when open. That's Sato. He's only a year younger than Rubio, but he has a lot less wear on his tread, and is a much better shooter. The talent level might be a decline for Minnesota, but the fit level is much better (though Sato is having a better year than Rubio is right now - so there's risk there for the Bulls - they'd have to do their homework to make sure that Rubio is just having an off year, rather than being a year into irreversible age-related decline).

Hernangomez is another guy who disappointed this year. Thad Young is a much better player, and a much better guy in terms of helping "guide" KAT and Naz and McDaniels. I also think that Jaden McDaniels' play makes Hernangomez's "stretch 4" skillset less valuable.

The trade is basically a wash salary wise - Bulls end up taking on $600-800K or salary - with all four players expiring at the end of next season. So I think Minnesota would likely do the trade if presented. I mentioned a future 2nd rounder being thrown in, but the more that I think about it - with the upgrade from Hernangomez to Thad, plus Rubio's bad season, I don't know that a future 2nd shouldn't actually be coming back to the Bulls. I think as a flat, 4 player trade, it's not only fair, but one that both teams should do for fit purposes.


Rubio has been HORRIBLE for Minny. Trading Thad/Sato feels like an overpay. Hernangomez is more of a PF than SF, IMO, and not especially useful. I wonder if we could sub Aminu for Thad and get that deal done?
:clap:
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1765 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:50 pm

sco wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:Back to trades, I think I have a two trade plan for a "win now" mode that is realistic and would make the Bulls, if not quite contenders, a dangerous team that no one would want to play.

First is the Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade that I've been pushing for a while. Second is a Thad + Sato (and maybe a future 2nd rounder, but not sure it would be needed) for Ricky Rubio + Hernangomez swap.

(snipped)



On the proposed Thad/Sato for Rubio/Hernagomez trade... I think that's one the Wolves make.

Rubio didn't fit with Russell and is having a down year, especially shooting. Between Russell, Edwards, and Beasley (if they keep him), they really don't need a ball dominant PG... they need a secondary player who barely ever handles or distributes but instead moves the ball when it comes to him, and shoots well from 3 when open. That's Sato. He's only a year younger than Rubio, but he has a lot less wear on his tread, and is a much better shooter. The talent level might be a decline for Minnesota, but the fit level is much better (though Sato is having a better year than Rubio is right now - so there's risk there for the Bulls - they'd have to do their homework to make sure that Rubio is just having an off year, rather than being a year into irreversible age-related decline).

Hernangomez is another guy who disappointed this year. Thad Young is a much better player, and a much better guy in terms of helping "guide" KAT and Naz and McDaniels. I also think that Jaden McDaniels' play makes Hernangomez's "stretch 4" skillset less valuable.

The trade is basically a wash salary wise - Bulls end up taking on $600-800K or salary - with all four players expiring at the end of next season. So I think Minnesota would likely do the trade if presented. I mentioned a future 2nd rounder being thrown in, but the more that I think about it - with the upgrade from Hernangomez to Thad, plus Rubio's bad season, I don't know that a future 2nd shouldn't actually be coming back to the Bulls. I think as a flat, 4 player trade, it's not only fair, but one that both teams should do for fit purposes.


Rubio has been HORRIBLE for Minny. Trading Thad/Sato feels like an overpay. Hernangomez is more of a PF than SF, IMO, and not especially useful. I wonder if we could sub Aminu for Thad and get that deal done?


While preferable, I doubt that's possible - unless the Wolves view Sato as a clear upgrade to Rubio due to fit and shooting - which I doubt. They'd save a couple more million dollars, so there's that, but I doubt that anyone sees Aminu as having value. Maybe if they keep their pick and the salary would push them into the luxury tax?

Meanwhile, Rubio for Sato would definitely be a risk for the Bulls. It could be a downgrade (for one year), if Rubio doesn't bounce back. But I think Sato has definitely proven that he isn't really a starting level player - at least for the Bulls as currently constructed. Now, if you managed to swap Lauri for Derozan, could that change... maybe? Like I said, it would be a (calculated / short term) risk.
MalagaBulls
Analyst
Posts: 3,254
And1: 1,148
Joined: Dec 15, 2013
Location: Malaga, Spain (Where the Sun shines 300 days a year))
       

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1766 » by MalagaBulls » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:43 am

Would you peeps put PWill on the table for any trade involving a 4 or a 1 with the desired skills we need? Is he untouchable?
User avatar
erlim
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,418
And1: 1,614
Joined: Feb 10, 2009
 

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1767 » by erlim » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:26 am

MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps put PWill on the table for any trade involving a 4 or a 1 with the desired skills we need? Is he untouchable?


Of course, I don’t speak for anybody else here, but I would trade PWill. I don’t really get the hype seeing him start all season.
Image
CobyWhite0
Senior
Posts: 559
And1: 419
Joined: Dec 28, 2020
 

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1768 » by CobyWhite0 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:20 am

MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps put PWill on the table for any trade involving a 4 or a 1 with the desired skills we need? Is he untouchable?


Just like all but a handful of NBA players, Mr. Patrick Williams certainly isn't untouchable.

And just like any possible trade, it depends on what the other team offers in return.
Bulldog23
Rookie
Posts: 1,243
And1: 75
Joined: Oct 25, 2002

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1769 » by Bulldog23 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:42 am

If the Bulls trade for Derozen, it may be at the cost of losing Lavine. I don’t see Lavine playing with Derozen as a good pairing.
MalagaBulls
Analyst
Posts: 3,254
And1: 1,148
Joined: Dec 15, 2013
Location: Malaga, Spain (Where the Sun shines 300 days a year))
       

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1770 » by MalagaBulls » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:02 pm

Would you peeps be onboard with this off season?

Trade that goes like this with Raptors:

Chicago out: S&T Lauri for 4/58M w/ year 4 TO (14.5M AAV), PWill (7.2M next season), Arci (3M next season) - Total Salary 24.7M
Chicago in: Fred VanVleet (19.6M), Chris Boucher (7M) - Total salary 26.6M

Toronto in: Lauri, PWill, Arci
Toronto out: FVV, CBoucher
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1771 » by sco » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:26 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps be onboard with this off season?

Trade that goes like this with Raptors:

Chicago out: S&T Lauri for 4/58M w/ year 4 TO (14.5M AAV), PWill (7.2M next season), Arci (3M next season) - Total Salary 24.7M
Chicago in: Fred VanVleet (19.6M), Chris Boucher (7M) - Total salary 26.6M

Toronto in: Lauri, PWill, Arci
Toronto out: FVV, CBoucher

In a second, but it looks like a terrible trade for TO. Why would they consider this for a second?
:clap:
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1772 » by sco » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:32 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps put PWill on the table for any trade involving a 4 or a 1 with the desired skills we need? Is he untouchable?

What about Williams/White/filler to DET for Grant?
:clap:
MalagaBulls
Analyst
Posts: 3,254
And1: 1,148
Joined: Dec 15, 2013
Location: Malaga, Spain (Where the Sun shines 300 days a year))
       

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1773 » by MalagaBulls » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:09 pm

sco wrote:
MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps be onboard with this off season?

Trade that goes like this with Raptors:

Chicago out: S&T Lauri for 4/58M w/ year 4 TO (14.5M AAV), PWill (7.2M next season), Arci (3M next season) - Total Salary 24.7M
Chicago in: Fred VanVleet (19.6M), Chris Boucher (7M) - Total salary 26.6M

Toronto in: Lauri, PWill, Arci
Toronto out: FVV, CBoucher

In a second, but it looks like a terrible trade for TO. Why would they consider this for a second?
Well we bandied about trades on their board and they are sky high on PWill. Since an option with Lauri is a S&T I put that package together and threw Arci to give them a PG and make the money match.
It addresses the 2 areas of need for us but now we need a 3.
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1774 » by MGB8 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:39 pm

Bulldog23 wrote:If the Bulls trade for Derozen, it may be at the cost of losing Lavine. I don’t see Lavine playing with Derozen as a good pairing.


Why do you say that? I think the opposite. Unless you think Lavine is some sort of prima-donna - which hasn't really shown.

Derozan plays well with DeJounte Murray (and vice-versa), where Murray takes 14.5 shots per game (to Derozan's 15) and is a lot worse from 3 than Lavine is? Derrick White (12.5), Rudy Gay (9.9), Keldon Johnson (10.2), Lonnie Walker (9.8).... all play well with Derozan. So did Aldridge before he fell off a cliff - with them getting pretty much the same number of shots.

Maybe more tellingly, Derozan is at 15.9 FGA/36, which is less than Murray's 16.3 FGA/36, Gay's 16.4, Aldridge's 16.4 before he left/retired, and not that far above White's 15.3 and Walker's 14.2. Meaning, when they are on the court, Derozan doesn't get a meaningfully larger share of the shots than his teammates.

I think you are confusing Toronto Derozan with current Derozan, who's become a point forward for the Spurs, leading that team with 7.2 assists per game (in 34 minutes per game).

On the Bulls, LaVine and Vuc both get 19.9 FGA/36, then Coby with 15, Lauri with 14.5, Thad with 14.2, then Denzel also with 14.2.

If you added Derozan, he'd largely be taking Thad's role on offense, but with more attacking ability. I highly doubt that there would be huge pressure to reduce Lavine and Vuc's volume significantly - other than allowing them (and Derozan) to play fewer minutes by staggering them. Even this season, Zach is taking fewer attempts per game but scoring more.

So why would adding Derozan mean that Lavine would leave? If that's the case, adding any good offensive backcourt player would mean Lavine is gone --- and you are basically saying that Lavine is opposed to making the team better. I call BS.
ChettheJet
Analyst
Posts: 3,306
And1: 827
Joined: Jul 02, 2014
       

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1775 » by ChettheJet » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:58 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps put PWill on the table for any trade involving a 4 or a 1 with the desired skills we need? Is he untouchable?


OK so many here don't see the upside of keeping PW to build long term. Which has to mean that they think both the front office and Donovan are fools for drafting him in the first place and continuing to start him. There's no other way to read the position of these posters you can't disagree with the Bulls on something as big as their first draft choice and think they know what they're doing. So why do people who think the Bulls have made this big over reach also think another team sees what they don't and is going to be willing to give up some established star and/or picks to get the guy they see as a bust?
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1776 » by sco » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:36 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:
sco wrote:
MalagaBulls wrote:Would you peeps be onboard with this off season?

Trade that goes like this with Raptors:

Chicago out: S&T Lauri for 4/58M w/ year 4 TO (14.5M AAV), PWill (7.2M next season), Arci (3M next season) - Total Salary 24.7M
Chicago in: Fred VanVleet (19.6M), Chris Boucher (7M) - Total salary 26.6M

Toronto in: Lauri, PWill, Arci
Toronto out: FVV, CBoucher

In a second, but it looks like a terrible trade for TO. Why would they consider this for a second?
Well we bandied about trades on their board and they are sky high on PWill. Since an option with Lauri is a S&T I put that package together and threw Arci to give them a PG and make the money match.
It addresses the 2 areas of need for us but now we need a 3.

Can you include more than one player in a S&T? I didn't think you could for some reason.
:clap:
Bulldog23
Rookie
Posts: 1,243
And1: 75
Joined: Oct 25, 2002

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1777 » by Bulldog23 » Sat May 1, 2021 12:36 pm

MGB8 wrote:
Bulldog23 wrote:If the Bulls trade for Derozen, it may be at the cost of losing Lavine. I don’t see Lavine playing with Derozen as a good pairing.


Why do you say that? I think the opposite. Unless you think Lavine is some sort of prima-donna - which hasn't really shown.

Derozan plays well with DeJounte Murray (and vice-versa), where Murray takes 14.5 shots per game (to Derozan's 15) and is a lot worse from 3 than Lavine is? Derrick White (12.5), Rudy Gay (9.9), Keldon Johnson (10.2), Lonnie Walker (9.8).... all play well with Derozan. So did Aldridge before he fell off a cliff - with them getting pretty much the same number of shots.

Maybe more tellingly, Derozan is at 15.9 FGA/36, which is less than Murray's 16.3 FGA/36, Gay's 16.4, Aldridge's 16.4 before he left/retired, and not that far above White's 15.3 and Walker's 14.2. Meaning, when they are on the court, Derozan doesn't get a meaningfully larger share of the shots than his teammates.

I think you are confusing Toronto Derozan with current Derozan, who's become a point forward for the Spurs, leading that team with 7.2 assists per game (in 34 minutes per game).

On the Bulls, LaVine and Vuc both get 19.9 FGA/36, then Coby with 15, Lauri with 14.5, Thad with 14.2, then Denzel also with 14.2.

If you added Derozan, he'd largely be taking Thad's role on offense, but with more attacking ability. I highly doubt that there would be huge pressure to reduce Lavine and Vuc's volume significantly - other than allowing them (and Derozan) to play fewer minutes by staggering them. Even this season, Zach is taking fewer attempts per game but scoring more.

So why would adding Derozan mean that Lavine would leave? If that's the case, adding any good offensive backcourt player would mean Lavine is gone --- and you are basically saying that Lavine is opposed to making the team better. I call BS.


I view both players having a similar game. I think they should invest in a two way point guard, that can play with Coby and Lavine. Plus I like Brown and Williams, I want to see them get minutes at the three spot.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1778 » by sco » Sat May 1, 2021 1:49 pm

What about:

Chi - OUT: Williams, White, Young IN: Grant
DET - OUT: Grant IN: Williams, White, Thompson BOS 1st
BOS - OUT: Thompson, BOS 1st IN: Young

Rolling with Sato [or FA], Lavine, Grant, Theis, Vuc would absolutely thrill me.
:clap:
WindyCityBorn
RealGM
Posts: 15,713
And1: 8,064
Joined: Jun 26, 2014
     

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1779 » by WindyCityBorn » Sat May 1, 2021 5:34 pm

Bulldog23 wrote:If the Bulls trade for Derozen, it may be at the cost of losing Lavine. I don’t see Lavine playing with Derozen as a good pairing.


We are not trading or losing LaVine for a guy 6 years older and not exactly great. And can’t shoot.
WindyCityBorn
RealGM
Posts: 15,713
And1: 8,064
Joined: Jun 26, 2014
     

Re: NBA Trade Thread # 3 

Post#1780 » by WindyCityBorn » Sat May 1, 2021 5:35 pm

sco wrote:What about:

Chi - OUT: Williams, White, Young IN: Grant
DET - OUT: Grant IN: Williams, White, Thompson BOS 1st
BOS - OUT: Thompson, BOS 1st IN: Young

Rolling with Sato [or FA], Lavine, Grant, Theis, Vuc would absolutely thrill me.


Sato is not good so that team would suck with no one to run the offense.

Return to Chicago Bulls