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Billy Donovan

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#181 » by DJhitek » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:27 pm

ZOMG wrote:
DJhitek wrote:I mean, listen, if Billy is to blame for a flawed roster then have at it. Boylen was very bad at managing player relationships and in-game interactions with those players. I don’t get the sense that Donovan doesn’t have a good rapport with his players. The talent on the team just isn’t good enough.


We literally have two All Stars in our starting lineup.


One plays the center position and the other is hobbled. If this recent stretch doesn’t tell you that defensively challenged centers just don’t move the needle in today’s NBA I don’t know what does. The Bulls don’t have the pieces around these two all stars to compensate for their issues defensively.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#182 » by Stratmaster » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:32 pm

DJhitek wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
DJhitek wrote:I wasn’t a huge fan of the hire but I think Dononvan has been above average here so far. Some of his rotations are a little and miss but coaches need talent that blend with their coaching philosophies. I’m sure play making point guard is one of his needs and he doesn’t have one here.
Name one concrete thing other than the Thad gimmick that worked for a while that has impressed you about his coaching decisions or rotations? What player has blossomed due to his coaching? How does he balance his talent with his rotations?

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Had the stones to bench Coby and Wendell I guess, seems to have the respect the of team. Small victories considering who we had.
Sato got healthy. Coby never should have been staring in the first place. His failure to recognize what Gafford could do off the bench is part of why his rotations were so screwed up.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#183 » by ZOMG » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:33 pm

DJhitek wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
DJhitek wrote:I mean, listen, if Billy is to blame for a flawed roster then have at it. Boylen was very bad at managing player relationships and in-game interactions with those players. I don’t get the sense that Donovan doesn’t have a good rapport with his players. The talent on the team just isn’t good enough.


We literally have two All Stars in our starting lineup.


One plays the center position and the other is hobbled. If this recent stretch doesn’t tell you that defensively challenged centers just don’t move the needle in today’s NBA I don’t know what does. The Bulls don’t have the pieces around these two all stars to compensate for their issues defensively.


My reply was mostly sarcastic, I actually agree with you.

But the real point is not that Zach and Vuc need defenders around them - it's that they have zero offensive chemistry. Their supposed "lethal" pick and rolls have not materialized at any point. They need defenders, sure, but they need scorers too.

Maybe, just maybe... they just aren't as good as the fanbase thinks they are.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#184 » by Stratmaster » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:35 pm

dougthonus wrote:Haven't really read the thread, but my thoughts on Donovan when we hired him were that he was great with players and would improve culture / player relationships. He's a good basketball mind with lots of experience and good ideas and will help players develop. He's a weak in-game strategist.

After watching him coach for half a season, that opinion still seems about right to me.
Awwww... everybody on this team loves each other.

That sarcasm isn't directed at you. That locker room culture thing is great but in my experience, the best fix for a poor culture in any endeavor is success. Quit throwing games and players will be a lot happier.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#185 » by DJhitek » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:37 pm

Stratmaster wrote:Sato got healthy. Coby never should have been staring in the first place. His failure to recognize what Gafford could do off the bench is part of why his rotations were so screwed up.

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That’s a fair point about Sato and Gafford was behind guys that are either better or some type of evaluation needed to be made.

Again, I think the talent and fit is the problem. But rotations is a big reason why some OKC fans were happy to see him go. I’m not going to defend Billy blindly because I’m not a fan of his.

Just saying this season is a jumbled mess because of holdover talent taking major minutes.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#186 » by Stratmaster » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:39 pm

ZOMG wrote:
DJhitek wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
We literally have two All Stars in our starting lineup.


One plays the center position and the other is hobbled. If this recent stretch doesn’t tell you that defensively challenged centers just don’t move the needle in today’s NBA I don’t know what does. The Bulls don’t have the pieces around these two all stars to compensate for their issues defensively.


My reply was mostly sarcastic, I actually agree with you.

But the real point is not that Zach and Vuc need defenders around them - it's that they have zero offensive chemistry. Their supposed "lethal" pick and rolls have not materialized at any point. They need defenders, sure, but they need scorers too.

Maybe, just maybe... they just aren't as good as the fanbase thinks they are.
Interesting stat. Since the trade Vuc is 29% from 3 and Zach is 20%.

You think that will continue?

Maybe they just haven't shot well in the 4 and 3 games respectively?

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#187 » by ZOMG » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:56 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
DJhitek wrote:
One plays the center position and the other is hobbled. If this recent stretch doesn’t tell you that defensively challenged centers just don’t move the needle in today’s NBA I don’t know what does. The Bulls don’t have the pieces around these two all stars to compensate for their issues defensively.


My reply was mostly sarcastic, I actually agree with you.

But the real point is not that Zach and Vuc need defenders around them - it's that they have zero offensive chemistry. Their supposed "lethal" pick and rolls have not materialized at any point. They need defenders, sure, but they need scorers too.

Maybe, just maybe... they just aren't as good as the fanbase thinks they are.
Interesting stat. Since the trade Vuc is 29% from 3 and Zach is 20%.

You think that will continue?

Maybe they just haven't shot well in the 4 and 3 games respectively?


I'm not claiming they won't return to the mean at some point. But that was never the point. The point is that bringing in Vuc was supposed to create a 1-2 punch where each player profits from the presence of the other. We're not seeing anything like that, and I'm not sure it's just a question of time.

Zach LaVine has never in his career been that player.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#188 » by JimmyJammer » Sat Apr 3, 2021 3:49 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
My reply was mostly sarcastic, I actually agree with you.

But the real point is not that Zach and Vuc need defenders around them - it's that they have zero offensive chemistry. Their supposed "lethal" pick and rolls have not materialized at any point. They need defenders, sure, but they need scorers too.

Maybe, just maybe... they just aren't as good as the fanbase thinks they are.
Interesting stat. Since the trade Vuc is 29% from 3 and Zach is 20%.

You think that will continue?

Maybe they just haven't shot well in the 4 and 3 games respectively?


I'm not claiming they won't return to the mean at some point. But that was never the point. The point is that bringing in Vuc was supposed to create a 1-2 punch where each player profits from the presence of the other. We're not seeing anything like that, and I'm not sure it's just a question of time.

Zach LaVine has never in his career been that player.


For a long time basketball and Bulls fan, you continue to amaze me by some of the comments that you make on this forum. So, you expected chemistry in three games and with only a few hotel ballroom walk-throughs? And, with one of them being hobbled? The reality is the real tandem of Zach and Vuch may not show its full potential until next season, after a full Summer and training camp.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#189 » by dougthonus » Sun Apr 4, 2021 1:19 pm

JimmyJammer wrote:For a long time basketball and Bulls fan, you continue to amaze me by some of the comments that you make on this forum. So, you expected chemistry in three games and with only a few hotel ballroom walk-throughs? And, with one of them being hobbled? The reality is the real tandem of Zach and Vuch may not show its full potential until next season, after a full Summer and training camp.


I think this is true. We won't see how well these guys really play until next year. That said, people will take that statement far more optimistically than they should IMO. I don't expect these guys to be amazing next year either. They still will remain an awful defensive pairing and I'm not sure there is that much synergy to unlock in their play together that it will make them considerably better than their current efforts. What will help considerably is both shooting the ball better, which they've done very poorly since the trade.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#190 » by Stratmaster » Sun Apr 4, 2021 2:29 pm

dougthonus wrote:
JimmyJammer wrote:For a long time basketball and Bulls fan, you continue to amaze me by some of the comments that you make on this forum. So, you expected chemistry in three games and with only a few hotel ballroom walk-throughs? And, with one of them being hobbled? The reality is the real tandem of Zach and Vuch may not show its full potential until next season, after a full Summer and training camp.


I think this is true. We won't see how well these guys really play until next year. That said, people will take that statement far more optimistically than they should IMO. I don't expect these guys to be amazing next year either. They still will remain an awful defensive pairing and I'm not sure there is that much synergy to unlock in their play together that it will make them considerably better than their current efforts. What will help considerably is both shooting the ball better, which they've done very poorly since the trade.


I think these 2 players offense will be just fine. I agree though that the reason for optimism will come when the Bulls find 3 high quality defenders to put around them on the floor. By quality defenders I do not mean Coby White, PWill (at least not the current version) and Lauri.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#191 » by Ice Man » Sun Apr 4, 2021 3:03 pm

Stratmaster wrote: By quality defenders I do not mean Coby White, PWill (at least not the current version) and Lauri.


That's funny.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#192 » by ZOMG » Sun Apr 4, 2021 3:31 pm

Ice Man wrote:
Stratmaster wrote: By quality defenders I do not mean Coby White, PWill (at least not the current version) and Lauri.


That's funny.


Well, they're not playing with Lauri and Coby. I keep reading here all the time that Sato and Thad are good defenders (and that Pwill is at least a lot better than White and Markkanen), so what gives?

Zach and Vuc are just a bad match overall, made much worse by the fact that they BOTH have to be hidden defensively.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#193 » by khufure » Sun Apr 4, 2021 4:56 pm

ZOMG wrote:Zach and Vuc are just a bad match overall, made much worse by the fact that they BOTH have to be hidden defensively.

??? Zac is an average NBA defender, currently dealing with a bad wheel. Why does Vuc have to be 'hidden'? He's not been making his shots but in my opinion he's been steady on both ends of the court. He'll get better looks, passing, and fit in the defense more over time.

You wanna talk about a defensive issue just look at White every time he's on the court lately. If he's not turning the ball over he's getting pick & roll'd. I love the dude but he needs to put in some serious ball-handling and defense work off-season.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#194 » by Stratmaster » Sun Apr 4, 2021 7:54 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
Stratmaster wrote: By quality defenders I do not mean Coby White, PWill (at least not the current version) and Lauri.


That's funny.


Well, they're not playing with Lauri and Coby. I keep reading here all the time that Sato and Thad are good defenders (and that Pwill is at least a lot better than White and Markkanen), so what gives?

Zach and Vuc are just a bad match overall, made much worse by the fact that they BOTH have to be hidden defensively.
Stating that Thad and Sato are better than Coby and Lauri doesn't mean they are good.

Notice I said "when the Bulls get 3 high quality defenders".

If you don't think most every team has scorers who are weak defenders you aren't watching the NBA. Zach is about average defensively man on man. Trying to get him to fight through screens would be a horrible idea. Even 2 way players like Butler have their scoring suffer when they have to work that hard defensively.

The Bulls need complimentary pieces. Not more shooters who can't play defense.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#195 » by sco » Sun Apr 4, 2021 8:47 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
That's funny.


Well, they're not playing with Lauri and Coby. I keep reading here all the time that Sato and Thad are good defenders (and that Pwill is at least a lot better than White and Markkanen), so what gives?

Zach and Vuc are just a bad match overall, made much worse by the fact that they BOTH have to be hidden defensively.
Stating that Thad and Sato are better than Coby and Lauri doesn't mean they are good.

Notice I said "when the Bulls get 3 high quality defenders".

If you don't think most every team has scorers who are weak defenders you aren't watching the NBA. Zach is about average defensively man on man. Trying to get him to fight through screens would be a horrible idea. Even 2 way players like Butler have their scoring suffer when they have to work that hard defensively.

The Bulls need complimentary pieces. Not more shooters who can't play defense.

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I was happy to see a line-up of Sato, Lavine, Brown, Williams, Vuc today...Also happy BD subbed Theis in when Thad got into foul trouble to play min next to Vuc.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#196 » by Stratmaster » Sun Apr 4, 2021 10:47 pm

sco wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Well, they're not playing with Lauri and Coby. I keep reading here all the time that Sato and Thad are good defenders (and that Pwill is at least a lot better than White and Markkanen), so what gives?

Zach and Vuc are just a bad match overall, made much worse by the fact that they BOTH have to be hidden defensively.
Stating that Thad and Sato are better than Coby and Lauri doesn't mean they are good.

Notice I said "when the Bulls get 3 high quality defenders".

If you don't think most every team has scorers who are weak defenders you aren't watching the NBA. Zach is about average defensively man on man. Trying to get him to fight through screens would be a horrible idea. Even 2 way players like Butler have their scoring suffer when they have to work that hard defensively.

The Bulls need complimentary pieces. Not more shooters who can't play defense.

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I was happy to see a line-up of Sato, Lavine, Brown, Williams, Vuc today...Also happy BD subbed Theis in when Thad got into foul trouble to play min next to Vuc.
Yep. Much better coached game. I mentioned in the post game thread maybe they just need to take the option of those crazy Coby lineups away from him.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#197 » by Stratmaster » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:05 pm

Well, Billy actually had a game where he coached great.

Then last night happened. May be the worst in game coaching I have ever seen in a game in the NBA. I mean it's right up there with Boylen's hockey substitution game.

I fear we are in trouble regardless of what players we get.

We need to trade for a washed up LBJ soon just so he can coach during the games.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#198 » by Ice Man » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:23 pm

Unless Billy is somebody who believes in coaching all regular season games straight up, adjusting only in playoffs, he's the very definition of an A to B coach at the NBA level (obviously, he took his college teams to Point C). Irony is that Nate McMillan got fired because allegedly he's not very good at making tactical adjustments. He looked like George Karl when compared to Billy.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#199 » by Am2626 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:54 pm

Ice Man wrote:Unless Billy is somebody who believes in coaching all regular season games straight up, adjusting only in playoffs, he's the very definition of an A to B coach at the NBA level (obviously, he took his college teams to Point C). Irony is that Nate McMillan got fired because allegedly he's not very good at making tactical adjustments. He looked like George Karl when compared to Billy.


The Bulls right now are in a Point A to Point B situation so he’s probably the right coach for this team right now. As they get better and become a serious playoff contender then the Bulls can see if Billy can handle a Point B to Point C situation. I remind everyone who the Bulls had coaching this team last year and how much of a dumpster fire this team would be right now if that guy were still coaching this team.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#200 » by cool007 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:59 pm

IMO, Billy is definitely better than Jimbo but who isn't?

Billy is a good offensive coach but terrible at defensive schemes and has no clue on how to change things up when they aren't going your way. How can you watch over and over and over and over again that Hawks run the same plays for an Oop or an easy floater for Trae but we didn't adjust even once.

Billy should have atleast tried trapping Young right after halfcourt (like they did with Lavine) and break their rhythm. Yeah they might make a basket or 2 but like Nate did, rather see someone else beat us than the star player (Lavine/Trae).

This is like how many times Billy has been outcoached by the other team???? His rotations are also in question many times than not. If anything I rather put defensive players next to Lavine and Vuc and go from there. Coby and Lauri might score a few but they will give up a TON on the other end so what is the point???

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