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Billy Donovan

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#241 » by chefo » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:39 pm

I've been trying to put my finger on why we look so miserable on O post-trade, and I think I finally got some context that makes sense to me.

To me, the difference in good versus great versus putrid coaching is maximizing the talent you have on the roster. I always like to use the Dubs pre-Kerr and post-Kerr as an example.

Jackson had almost the same roster as Kerr the following years. He won 51 games, so it's not like he was an utter failure. But the offense he ran had only 3 wrinkles:

* Steph & Lee P&P
* Steph ISO
* Klay ISO / off screen

Iggy handled some, Bogut was a great limited minute defensive C. Looked like a decent, middle-seed team. 12th in O rating despite having an abundance of high-end O talent who were high producers. Unimaginative in every way possible. Got beat by a decent Clippers team in the first round. Again, not a bad team by any stretch, but nothing that special either--but, as it turns out, Jackson had two/three future HOF players on the roster and just didn't know what to do with them.

The Bulls post-trade are the equivalent of the Jackson Dubs. It's purely a succession of plays meant to do one thing only--get Vuc or Zach in a scoring position, and let them make it happen. It's technically sound (baseline screens for Vuc before the entry pass) and worlds better than the crap Jimbo ran, which was nothing really--a single set, but in essence, our O is a sequence of "my turn" individual possessions. It can be argued with some validity that the rest of the roster just isn't good enough... or whatever. But, they have not come up with a SINGLE play where a combination of players is involved and the D really has to pick it's poison.

For example, the Dubs' "Death Lineup" used to run a very simple play that nobody could figure out how to stop consistently. Steph handled the ball and got a screen from Dray. At the exact time, Iggy set a weakside baseline screen for Klay. Barnes spaced in the strong-side corner. On that play, you're really F-ed, if you are the D and the only possible way to stop it was to jump Steph and hope he can't drop it off to Dray. Otherwise, there was no good way to defend it without giving up a dunk to Iggy or Dray, or an open 3 to Klay or Barnes, or worst of all, Steph. They ran it over and over, and over. There's no adjustment you can make to stop it. It involves everybody on the team, and the outcomes (who took the shot) were often different because teams would try to adjust, but it was insanely difficult to stop that set.

Contrast that with the Jackson O from above. With Kerr the ball moved and did not get stuck, the exact opposite of Jackson's O philosophy.

As I've written, my biggest frustration is that we have 3(!) high volume, high efficiency scorers, but because we run the Jackson O, there's not enough touches to go around for 3 guys to keep taking turns. So, our unimaginative coaching staff did what seemed the obvious thing to do--they benched the third (Lauri) because they couldn't figure out what to do with him when Zach and Vuc get 150 touches taking turns scoring. In vacuum, it was the correct decision--but that's only because they can't see the forest for the trees.

I can think of 3 or 4 plays that involve all 3 of our guys as 1a,1b, and 1c options, depending on how the play develops that would be insanely difficult to guard by ANY D.

"Screen the screener" with Zach, Vuc and Lauri. You either have a free lane for Zach to drive, a free lane for Vuc or Lauri to cut, or an open 3 for one of the 3, depending on what the D does. They are all high-volume long-range shooters on good accuracy and all 3 finish well in the paint.

"High-Low off the P&P"--hell, we run this with Theis and Lauri and Lauri's gotten several paint hook shots that he's converted off of it. Replace Coby with an actual PG or Zach, and Theis with Vuc (because you have to guard him at the 3 on the pop) and have the one not setting the screen drag the smaller defender with him in the paint. If Lauri is guarded by a midget, let him cut and seal off. If Lauri has a bigger forward like Galo, have Vuc cut instead. I mean, that's just simple shyte that we haven't even tried to get guys going. That play obviously doesn't work with Thad, nor does it work if you have PaW out there because his guy will cheat. But, put two respectable shooters out there with Zach, Lauri and Vuc, and there's no good play the D can make--you'll have a 7 footer getting the ball 3 feet from the hoop on a pin-down, or an open 3, if the D collapses.

"Vuc-Lauri weakside baseline or elbow screen" -- we currently have Lauri setting screens for Vuc on the strong-side baseline to help with getting Vuc in position for an entry pass. Lauri then jogs his posterior to the weak-side corner to chill for the rest of the possession, with the D knowing that Vuc is about to attempt a paint shot... so, a free invitation to collapse the D into the paint. Vuc will make some, but that's not a super efficient way of going about scoring--because again, our third option is marginalized and doesn't have to be guarded. Instead, run Vuc and Lauri elbow screens where Lauri pops for an open 3, or better, curls for a cut to the hoop. The D has to pay attention to both of them. If they go under and pack the paint, Vuc pops for an open 3. If his defenders shows hard instead, Lauri has a high-low opportunity. If Lauri pops and they play the passing lane, Vuc has an easy cut to the hoop. Best of all, it completely clears the lane for Zach to drive because the D thinks the action is on the weak-side.

In all of these, all it takes is a competent G to deliver the ball on time and in place.

This is not hard stuff, because you're forcing the D to constantly make choices, as opposed to it knowing exactly what's happening next. As it currently stands, on some nights, our guys will be on fire and we'll win. Against good teams, or good defenses, we won't. That's because we're not using the talent we have on the roster--there may be a million reasons why, but our team is underperforming it's current talent level "bigly"--mostly because the third most talented guy on the team no longer plays meaningful minutes and when he plays, he doesn't even get the ball.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#242 » by MrSparkle » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:54 pm

The offense has gone much more to trying to force possessions for Zach and Vucevic. It’s looking like a bad 2-man show, and the stat-lines the past games reflect that.

Hard to know though; Sato and Pat are borderline invisible. Is it their fault, Donovan’s fault, Zach’s, or Vuc’s fault that they’ve been averaging a combined 5 ppg the past games? Donovan said Pat has the green light to take plays into his own hands. Sato is a grown man; we’ve seen him play tentative his entire career.

With Thad at PF, there isn’t enough spacing for Sato and Pat to become hesitant shooters. Defenders aren’t respecting them, and Zach/Vuc PnR isn’t effective.

It’s going to be hard to run plays if you effectively have one eager shooter on the floor.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#243 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:10 pm

MrSparkle wrote:The offense has gone much more to trying to force possessions for Zach and Vucevic.


I cringe every time that Stacey calls for forcing passes to Vuce.

Then again, I cringe whenever Stacey talks. In all the league, there isn't a single color announcer who second guesses like Stacey second guesses. Shots, passes, rotations, you name it, Stacey would have done it differently. Except, you see, I watched almost every one of Stacey's Chicago Bulls' games. He didn't do it differently. He made bad basketball decisions, repeatedly.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#244 » by MrSparkle » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:21 pm

Ice Man wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:The offense has gone much more to trying to force possessions for Zach and Vucevic.


I cringe every time that Stacey calls for forcing passes to Vuce.

Then again, I cringe whenever Stacey talks. In all the league, there isn't a single color announcer who second guesses like Stacey second guesses. Shots, passes, rotations, you name it, Stacey would have done it differently. Except, you see, I watched almost every one of Stacey's Chicago Bulls' games. He didn't do it differently. He made bad basketball decisions, repeatedly.


Ha - I hear you. This said, I do see him as the lovable, goofball uncle. I’ll give Amin a fair chance, give him a few years to find his own voice (right now he seems to be auditioning for Stacey, even though he got the job?). The pair hasn’t been entertaining. Stacey is a purely emotional Bulls fan with catch-phrases: sometimes they really make me chuckle. Hard to chuckle in a season like this; if we every get around to being good, his Hot Sauce and Threekola exclamations are welcome.

He sometimes points out decent issues, but for the most part, him and Perdue are back-seat driving from a bygone era where they weren’t good to begin with.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#245 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:31 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Ha - I hear you. This said, I do see him as the lovable, goofball uncle. I’ll give Amin a fair chance, give him a few years to find his own voice (right now he seems to be auditioning for Stacey, even though he got the job?). The pair hasn’t been entertaining. Stacey is a purely emotional Bulls fan with catch-phrases: sometimes they really make me chuckle. Hard to chuckle in a season like this; if we every get around to being good, his Hot Sauce and Threekola exclamations are welcome.

He sometimes points out decent issues, but for the most part, him and Perdue are back-seat driving from a bygone era where they weren’t good to begin with.


Well put. I will grant you the positives, sometimes I feel them too. Today is not one of those times, though, not after yesterday's game.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#246 » by Stratmaster » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:57 pm

Ice Man wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:The offense has gone much more to trying to force possessions for Zach and Vucevic.


I cringe every time that Stacey calls for forcing passes to Vuce.

Then again, I cringe whenever Stacey talks. In all the league, there isn't a single color announcer who second guesses like Stacey second guesses. Shots, passes, rotations, you name it, Stacey would have done it differently. Except, you see, I watched almost every one of Stacey's Chicago Bulls' games. He didn't do it differently. He made bad basketball decisions, repeatedly.
Lol. All truth.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#247 » by Stratmaster » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:02 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:The offense has gone much more to trying to force possessions for Zach and Vucevic.


I cringe every time that Stacey calls for forcing passes to Vuce.

Then again, I cringe whenever Stacey talks. In all the league, there isn't a single color announcer who second guesses like Stacey second guesses. Shots, passes, rotations, you name it, Stacey would have done it differently. Except, you see, I watched almost every one of Stacey's Chicago Bulls' games. He didn't do it differently. He made bad basketball decisions, repeatedly.


Ha - I hear you. This said, I do see him as the lovable, goofball uncle. I’ll give Amin a fair chance, give him a few years to find his own voice (right now he seems to be auditioning for Stacey, even though he got the job?). The pair hasn’t been entertaining. Stacey is a purely emotional Bulls fan with catch-phrases: sometimes they really make me chuckle. Hard to chuckle in a season like this; if we every get around to being good, his Hot Sauce and Threekola exclamations are welcome.

He sometimes points out decent issues, but for the most part, him and Perdue are back-seat driving from a bygone era where they weren’t good to begin with.
Perdue is even worse, because at least Stacey CAN BE funny occasionally. They both make strange assessments that leave you wondering how they ever made an NBA team.

In Perdue's case sometimes I think he is trying to be controversial.

At least Gill seems to have a clue... when he isn't too busy talking about his college and men's league awards.

Overall, it's a really pitiful presentation for a major market team that helped build the league into what it is.

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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#248 » by MrSparkle » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:41 pm

Honestly. listening to the Bulls Talk Thad podcast, it provides some relief thinking about this whole season, and it puts into perspective all the back-seat coaching (in regards to Billy's schemes and rotations).

These guys haven't had a practice since the trade. The new guys are "practicing" for 5 minutes at shoot-around. Defensive miscues are happening with new personnel as they learn the new system.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#249 » by Wingy » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:53 pm

Ice Man wrote:I cringe every time that Stacey calls for forcing passes to Vuce.


There was a bad one of those last night. Vuc was fronted by one guy, and a 2nd defender was clearly cheating on the backside to help on the pass. So the Bull on the wing identified this, and sensibly swung the ball. Yet Stacey went spouting off about how Vuc was wide open, and we had to throw it up there to him. :roll:
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#250 » by Wingy » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:56 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Honestly. listening to the Bulls Talk Thad podcast, it provides some relief thinking about this whole season, and it puts into perspective all the back-seat coaching (in regards to Billy's schemes and rotations).

These guys haven't had a practice since the trade. The new guys are "practicing" for 5 minutes at shoot-around. Defensive miscues are happening with new personnel as they learn the new system.


Covid rules, and regulations?

Obviously you don't want 3-hour Pat Riley grinders, but unless there are covid restrictions, I would think some defensive walk throughs, and low-speed reps are more than reasonable.

I'm going to assume covid rules.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#251 » by kodo » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:14 pm

Wingy wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Honestly. listening to the Bulls Talk Thad podcast, it provides some relief thinking about this whole season, and it puts into perspective all the back-seat coaching (in regards to Billy's schemes and rotations).

These guys haven't had a practice since the trade. The new guys are "practicing" for 5 minutes at shoot-around. Defensive miscues are happening with new personnel as they learn the new system.


Covid rules, and regulations?

Obviously you don't want 3-hour Pat Riley grinders, but unless there are covid restrictions, I would think some defensive walk throughs, and low-speed reps are more than reasonable.

I'm going to assume covid rules.


I believe it's fairly normal not to practice very much after training camp. This topic came up on another bball forum and the Celtics can go months without practice, Lakers have practiced only a few times this season period. A common answer seemed to be whenever there are 2 full days between games, which for the Bulls has been once since the ASB, and before the ASB happened last in January.

There isn't much practice going on, probably just another reason why it's so tough on young players in this league and players that need a well defined system.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#252 » by Wingy » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:26 pm

kodo wrote:
Wingy wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Honestly. listening to the Bulls Talk Thad podcast, it provides some relief thinking about this whole season, and it puts into perspective all the back-seat coaching (in regards to Billy's schemes and rotations).

These guys haven't had a practice since the trade. The new guys are "practicing" for 5 minutes at shoot-around. Defensive miscues are happening with new personnel as they learn the new system.


Covid rules, and regulations?

Obviously you don't want 3-hour Pat Riley grinders, but unless there are covid restrictions, I would think some defensive walk throughs, and low-speed reps are more than reasonable.

I'm going to assume covid rules.


I believe it's fairly normal not to practice very much after training camp. This topic came up on another bball forum and the Celtics can go months without practice, Lakers have practiced only a few times this season period. A common answer seemed to be whenever there are 2 full days between games, which for the Bulls has been once since the ASB, and before the ASB happened last in January.

There isn't much practice going on, probably just another reason why it's so tough on young players in this league and players that need a well defined system.


That's not shocking at all, but this team isn't normal compared to most squads. We're basically a brand new team that's supposedly trying to compete. The type of light physical/mental reps I'm talking are really not taxing. Hard to say how much they might already be doing this...but if it's really only "5 minutes at shoot-around" - that's a bad look on the coach considering the defensive sieve that is this squad.

Obviously it's harder to execute this type of preparation when you're not practicing it at full speed (much less game speed)...but still. I feel like our squad is showing a level of cluelessness that makes you wonder.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#253 » by RoseTheFuture22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:27 pm

There has to be some accountability with Pat or he is going to totally lose the team. He has benched Lauri, Coby, and Wendell(pre-trade) all due to performance. I am not saying he shouldn't start but he needs to be capped at 15-20 minutes until he shows he is not going to be a liability on both ends.

Also the other thing that really bothers me is getting consistently blown out and outplayed in the second half and the lack of adjustments. This is not just a young team that doesn't know how to finish games, we have a lot of vets in the rotation now. I don't know how much this happened in OKC but kind of worried this is a trend with him.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#254 » by BigUps » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:40 pm

I think you have to be really careful in criticizing Billy. This guy is managing arguably the worst backcourt in the NBA. He has one player that he can count on bringing it every night. The roster has players that all have massive holes in their games and is full of average NBA athletes.

He doesn't have a rim protector in any capacity what so ever.
He doesn't have a point guard in any capacity what so ever.
He has one wing player that is solid, but can't shoot 3's.

I mean, its not like the guy has a cupboard full of talent that he's mismanaging. He's making mistakes, I agree with that, but imagine looking down at the bench in the middle of the game trying to adjust to game flow and seeing the options of Coby, Valentine, Lauri, TBJ, etc. Its not an easy job right now with where the roster is at.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#255 » by ZOMG » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:45 pm

BigUps wrote:I think you have to be really careful in criticizing Billy. This guy is managing arguably the worst backcourt in the NBA. He has one player that he can count on bringing it every night. The roster has players that all have massive holes in their games and is full of average NBA athletes.

He doesn't have a rim protector in any capacity what so ever.
He doesn't have a point guard in any capacity what so ever.
He has one wing player that is solid, but can't shoot 3's.

I mean, its not like the guy has a cupboard full of talent that he's mismanaging. He's making mistakes, I agree with that, but imagine looking down at the bench in the middle of the game trying to adjust to game flow and seeing the options of Coby, Valentine, Lauri, TBJ, etc. Its not an easy job right now with where the roster is at.


Sorry, not feeling sorry for Billy. The Bulls were playing very good basketball for a while.

All the rotation players can be fine if you use them right. Billy is not doing that.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#256 » by Stratmaster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:05 am

BigUps wrote:I think you have to be really careful in criticizing Billy. This guy is managing arguably the worst backcourt in the NBA. He has one player that he can count on bringing it every night. The roster has players that all have massive holes in their games and is full of average NBA athletes.

He doesn't have a rim protector in any capacity what so ever.
He doesn't have a point guard in any capacity what so ever.
He has one wing player that is solid, but can't shoot 3's.

I mean, its not like the guy has a cupboard full of talent that he's mismanaging. He's making mistakes, I agree with that, but imagine looking down at the bench in the middle of the game trying to adjust to game flow and seeing the options of Coby, Valentine, Lauri, TBJ, etc. Its not an easy job right now with where the roster is at.


The worst backcourt in the NBA? Lavine and Sato are now "arguably" the worst backcourt in the NBA? :o
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#257 » by BigUps » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
BigUps wrote:I think you have to be really careful in criticizing Billy. This guy is managing arguably the worst backcourt in the NBA. He has one player that he can count on bringing it every night. The roster has players that all have massive holes in their games and is full of average NBA athletes.

He doesn't have a rim protector in any capacity what so ever.
He doesn't have a point guard in any capacity what so ever.
He has one wing player that is solid, but can't shoot 3's.

I mean, its not like the guy has a cupboard full of talent that he's mismanaging. He's making mistakes, I agree with that, but imagine looking down at the bench in the middle of the game trying to adjust to game flow and seeing the options of Coby, Valentine, Lauri, TBJ, etc. Its not an easy job right now with where the roster is at.


The worst backcourt in the NBA? Lavine and Sato are now "arguably" the worst backcourt in the NBA? :o


Sato isn't good. We have Lavine....it ends there. The backcourt is atrocious.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#258 » by Stratmaster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 pm

BigUps wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
BigUps wrote:I think you have to be really careful in criticizing Billy. This guy is managing arguably the worst backcourt in the NBA. He has one player that he can count on bringing it every night. The roster has players that all have massive holes in their games and is full of average NBA athletes.

He doesn't have a rim protector in any capacity what so ever.
He doesn't have a point guard in any capacity what so ever.
He has one wing player that is solid, but can't shoot 3's.

I mean, its not like the guy has a cupboard full of talent that he's mismanaging. He's making mistakes, I agree with that, but imagine looking down at the bench in the middle of the game trying to adjust to game flow and seeing the options of Coby, Valentine, Lauri, TBJ, etc. Its not an easy job right now with where the roster is at.


The worst backcourt in the NBA? Lavine and Sato are now "arguably" the worst backcourt in the NBA? :o


Sato isn't good. We have Lavine....it ends there. The backcourt is atrocious.


Lavine is playing anywhere from 34-39 minutes depending on game situations. That is almost half the backcourt minutes.We don't have an atrocious backcourt. We have a starting PG who is mediocre and a coach who insists on playing a catch and shoot shooting guard who can't defend anyone 31 minutes per game, mostly as a point guard. That coach then plays the style defense that most exposes said player's defensive weakness.

Give Coby 20 mpg off ball alongside Zach and/or Sato playing the point. Give Arch 12 mpg as PG in Bogans fashion to allow Zach to play off ball so that you reduce Zach's time at the point to a few minutes per game against certain matchups.

I am not trying to argue that the Bulls have great options at the one spot. I am arguing that there are strategies that can be used to minimize that weakness, and that strategy isn't playing Coby White 25 mpg at the point.

Either that, or there is a second option. Zach has been racking up assists pretty strong lately. He still has bad turnover games when asked to run the point. Bottom line is Zach, unlike Coby, is actually showing the capability of learning the position and is starting to have games here and there where he has solid assist numbers without the horrible turnovers. He also is getting better with court vision and the ability to make passes off of his drives. It used to be a given that once he started to attack the basket he was going to the rim. He is showing flashes here and there of being able to find open players off his drives now.

So you can commit to Zach as your PG but then you also need to commit to either Coby at SG or Lauri at PF because he has to have shooters other than just Vuc to pass to. Then something else has to give. Zach can't play 38 minutes per game, playing 4 games in 5 days, score 30, run the offense, run through screens every possession on defense, and still have anything left at the end of games.
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Re: Billy Donovan 

Post#259 » by BigUps » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:25 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
BigUps wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
The worst backcourt in the NBA? Lavine and Sato are now "arguably" the worst backcourt in the NBA? :o


Sato isn't good. We have Lavine....it ends there. The backcourt is atrocious.


Lavine is playing anywhere from 34-39 minutes depending on game situations. That is almost half the backcourt minutes.We don't have an atrocious backcourt. We have a starting PG who is mediocre and a coach who insists on playing a catch and shoot shooting guard who can't defend anyone 31 minutes per game, mostly as a point guard. That coach then plays the style defense that most exposes said player's defensive weakness.

Give Coby 20 mpg off ball alongside Zach and/or Sato playing the point. Give Arch 12 mpg as PG in Bogans fashion to allow Zach to play off ball so that you reduce Zach's time at the point to a few minutes per game against certain matchups.

I am not trying to argue that the Bulls have great options at the one spot. I am arguing that there are strategies that can be used to minimize that weakness, and that strategy isn't playing Coby White 25 mpg at the point.

Either that, or there is a second option. Zach has been racking up assists pretty strong lately. He still has bad turnover games when asked to run the point. Bottom line is Zach, unlike Coby, is actually showing the capability of learning the position and is starting to have games here and there where he has solid assist numbers without the horrible turnovers. He also is getting better with court vision and the ability to make passes off of his drives. It used to be a given that once he started to attack the basket he was going to the rim. He is showing flashes here and there of being able to find open players off his drives now.

So you can commit to Zach as your PG but then you also need to commit to either Coby at SG or Lauri at PF because he has to have shooters other than just Vuc to pass to. Then something else has to give. Zach can't play 38 minutes per game, playing 4 games in 5 days, score 30, run the offense, run through screens every possession on defense, and still have anything left at the end of games.


Why does Zach's defense suddenly get overlooked? Why the free pass on him? He deserves credit for progressing there, but he's still a below average defender.

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