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Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th???

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Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#1 » by cool007 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:25 pm

This one is especially for those (Jcool and co) who were saying why Zach is not taking over like Michael Jordan and shoot everytime like other superstars would do and take over the game in the 4th qtr???

I was watching NBCSportsChicago after the Spurs game and later at night some reporter came out and said when he talked to Billy after the game and asked (paraphrasing what I remember) about the 4th qtr and how Zach didn't take many shots or tried that Hero ball to help the team win? Billy said, something like teaching moments as he didn't want Zach to be playing Hero ball and wanted others to step up when they are loading up on Zach and they were just ball watchinig and not cutting or being aggressive as Zach doesn't have to save them every game. Everyone else need to step up and help him out etc.

Looks like Billy is trying to teach Zach and the team that everyone needs to step up and just can't rely on Zach to be a savior every game. This is why Billy was super pissed last 2 games with no one else stepping up to help Zach and Zach trying to find out who will help him out when the game gets too tight in the 4th. Looks like no one - other than a couple of baskets by Otto.

So Zach was doing what Billy wanted him to do and that's why he was not shooting many times in the 4th but trying to find cutters and when he did pass it, people were just afraid of shooting or just missed or turned it over. :banghead:

For those that didn't know, Zach wants to be that superstar but also wants to make the playoffs so he is listening to Billy and just following his lead. Zach was leading the league in the 4th qtr points until last few games and until when Lillard had a 50pt game last week. So Zach is not afraid to take the shots in the 4th and you saw how he took over in the OT and didn't wait on anyone and kept the game close to be winnable but too much Jokic and Murray.

In short, Zach needs help and (He is not a superman) he is our Batman but he needs a Robin to help him out here and there.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#2 » by weneeda2guard » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:01 pm

Jordan had pippen and shooters all over the place. You send help and doubles to jordan the others kill you

Lavine doesn't have that. Teams run at lavine hard to make him give up the ball and the rest of the team can respond. Sometimes our best option is young and he sometimes is just throwing shots up.

Coby lauri especially should be taking advantage here. I know Billy is criticized a lot for putting coby back in but I think that's his thinking when he does it. If they double lavine swing the ball and lauri or coby or Williams etc are going to get a open shot. Problem is the help collapses and it just boils down to the supporting cast not being good enough. Jordan had paxson hodges bj then kerr kukoc harper pippen etc who would just kill a team down the stretch if left open. So that led teams to stay home on Jordan and single coverage on Jordan and you were food for him.

Lavine is also not the ball handler Jordan was. So a elite ball handler next to lavine would free him up more and help set up situations on the court to get lavine more single covered but when lavine is always bringing the ball up the court because we don't have another playmaker teams can get the ball out his hands sooner which either leads to a bad shot from another player or lavine getting the ball back with the shot clock running down taking a difficult shot. Roster moves could change this
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#3 » by Jcool0 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:08 pm

"For those that didn't know, Zach wants to be that superstar but also wants to make the playoffs"

Thanks for the clarification not sure anyone was aware. :wink:
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#4 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:14 pm

Billy and the front office aren’t going to get emotional on a game by game basis like the fans here are.

Props to Zach for listening to the coaching staff, that’s one thing that should be acknowledged.

This year is all about evaluation. If Zach plays hero ball for the entire 4th quarter every game to gain a few extra wins, it gets the team nowhere in the long term.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#5 » by netduri2 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:19 pm

He's already attempting the 3rd most shots in the entire league in crunch time.

1. LeBron James 3.7 FGA per game in 4.8 MIN

2. Nikola Jokic 3.4 FGA per game in 5.3 MIN

3. Zach LaVine 3.3 FGA per game in 4.1 MIN

His shooting efficiency in crunch time has always been not that good comparing to his scoring volume. Plus his ast:tov ratio is also bad.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#6 » by DroseReturnChi » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:31 pm

Jcool0 wrote:"For those that didn't know, Zach wants to be that superstar but also wants to make the playoffs"

Thanks for the clarification not sure anyone was aware. :wink:


Does he tho? He get nervous every time in crunch time I dont think he wants be the man but just get all the fame and recognition.
By being the guy, I mean like Dame time who actually enjoys coming back from behind and launching logo shots.
What if I told Zach to become Klay and become a winner instead of trying to be a hero even Butler failed?
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#7 » by Stratmaster » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:37 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:Billy and the front office aren’t going to get emotional on a game by game basis like the fans here are.

Props to Zach for listening to the coaching staff, that’s one thing that should be acknowledged.

This year is all about evaluation. If Zach plays hero ball for the entire 4th quarter every game to gain a few extra wins, it gets the team nowhere in the long term.


Billy reacts on a minute to minute basis. Usually with knee jerk reactions. If Billy knows what he is doing, that shouldn't be necessary.

I agree though, that we don't want Zach to play hero ball. He hasn't ever done that under Billy, and he certainly doesn't do if for a full Q4, because with a few rare exceptions, he doesn't see the court for more than 7 minutes of the 4th quarter. The fact that he is the leading Q4 scorer in the league on 7 minutes while trying NOT to play hero ball tells you all you need to know about the supporting cast around him.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#8 » by kodo » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:24 pm

Lavine is not the problem with this team. For a borderline star, he's playing well above what should be expected of him.
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I should have included %, he had 2nd highest FG% in the 4th after Giannis. Higher than Harden. Lavine is not the problem with this team, everything else is.

Other guards like Beal & Curry only score 18%-17% of their points in the 4th. Zach scores 27% of his points in the 4th, higher than anyone, including Lillard & Giannis.
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Lavine is one of the best 4th quarter scorers in the league, this year. Arguably the best, depending on whether you value points (Lavine #1) or efficiency (Giannis). And I don't think Giannis is really an option for Chicago.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#9 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm

He is not taking over because when defense put pressure on him, he has like 3/30 games won in crunch time. His handles is shaky, he is turnover prone, low iq, jacking step back three from way behind three point line, is not good enough driver to the line, often get stripped, doesent know how to drawn fouls (that is skill today also Butler,Young,Luka,Quickley buy lot of free points that way), and they attack him on offence that make him nerveous. He wants to be superstar but he lack physical strenght and skills combined with court awarenness to deliver in crunch.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#10 » by Jcool0 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:44 pm

kodo wrote:I should have included %, he had 2nd highest FG% in the 4th after Giannis. Higher than Harden. Lavine is not the problem with this team, everything else is.


Yet with Clutch stats Lavine dropped to 41% shooting (3.3 attempts) and 29% from 3. In comparison Lillard shots 58% (2.6 attempts) and 48% from 3, Murray 53% (3 attempts) and 58% from 3 & SGA 51% (2.5 attempts) and 41% from 3. The only player under 50% shooting besides Lavine and is in the top 10 in clutch scoring, Lebron James at 47% (3.7 attempts).
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#11 » by MrSparkle » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:51 pm

Aside for the turnover last night, I’ve been happy with his 4th Q play this year. Things get really ugly when he starts forcing the issue on every play. I wish he had more secure handles like Jimmy or Luka, but it simply isn’t the case - he has a looser handle, and obviously less pass awareness.

But one thing that he should do is get a guy like Jokic in foul trouble.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#12 » by Hugi Mancura » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:51 pm

I think Bulls offense is at it's best when they move the ball. In last two games when other team have made their run on fourth Bulls have gone to the panic mode. Everyone tries to make that winning shot. So Bulls would need to slow down on those moments, but instead they start to almost speed up the game. Example, on clutch moments all Denver did was to run PnR with Murray & Jokic. They simplified their game, while Bulls went to other direction. So when Bulls goes to that panic mode on offense they need to start to simplify the game. Run PnR with anybody, PnR with Valentine and Gafford is better offense than what Bulls have shown in last two games in the fourth quarter. I don't think Lavine playing ISO would solve this, but having him to play PnR with any big who is in court would slow down the game and would most likely cool down players enough that there would not be that panic offense. If Lavine doesn't want to do that I would believe Coby and Sato would, but honestly don't think that would be an issue.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#13 » by WindyCityBorn » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:07 pm

Zach’s best role is off ball. Period.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#14 » by WindyCityBorn » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:11 pm

netduri2 wrote:He's already attempting the 3rd most shots in the entire league in crunch time.

1. LeBron James 3.7 FGA per game in 4.8 MIN

2. Nikola Jokic 3.4 FGA per game in 5.3 MIN

3. Zach LaVine 3.3 FGA per game in 4.1 MIN

His shooting efficiency in crunch time has always been not that good comparing to his scoring volume. Plus his ast:tov ratio is also bad.


Cool so what about his teammates? What are they doing other than hoping can he win the game on his own? If he is playing off ball and get set up for open threes he doesn’t miss them like our other so-called elite shooter. Do you think Zach is the problem? Or is the problem the lack of any decent players to take the burden off him at times? No reliable second option or 3rd option. He isn’t a PG so forcing him into that role will lead to turnovers. This is nothing new. We have no else to do it though. Our second best player is Thad Young. Think about that. Also Lauri sucks and isn’t even starter quality.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#15 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:14 pm

Part of this is the rotations, no?

Seems Billy likes to have him play almost the entire 3rd and then bring him back relatively late in the 4th.

EDIT: I just checked.

Zach averages 7.1 4th quarter minutes per game. That's 147th in the league.

Conversely, Zach averages 7.4 points in the 4th quarter. That's good for 6th in the league.

I think he's okay here.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=MIN&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#16 » by ChettheJet » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:22 pm

I think Zach feels he should take over but even he has to admit he's not the ball handler to bring it up and just take over. He's much better off playing off the ball, having them run a play and getting the ball in his hands to catch and shoot or get isolated so he can make a play. When he brings the ball up the other 9 players know he wants to make the play, the Bull stand around and the defense moves to double team Zach. If they come quickly enough he doesn't have the play he wanted to make then the Bulls are caught standing around.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#17 » by coldfish » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:22 pm

After the Spurs game I noted that what BD did was so far outside of normal that he had to be sending a message. When you listen to him talk, its pretty clear that he is trying to hang the young guys out to dry. I'm not sure if he is trying to teach them or to show AK that they suck. These comments just dovetail in with that.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#18 » by jordanwilliams6 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:36 pm

Kukoc-Lauri wrote:He is not taking over because when defense put pressure on him, he has like 3/30 games won in crunch time. His handles is shaky, he is turnover prone, low iq, jacking step back three from way behind three point line, is not good enough driver to the line, often get stripped, doesent know how to drawn fouls (that is skill today also Butler,Young,Luka,Quickley buy lot of free points that way), and they attack him on offence that make him nerveous. He wants to be superstar but he lack physical strenght and skills combined with court awarenness to deliver in crunch.

Absolute rubbish. Maybe if Lauri (or any other player) stood up once in a while, we’d be able to close these games out.
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#19 » by netduri2 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:18 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
netduri2 wrote:He's already attempting the 3rd most shots in the entire league in crunch time.

1. LeBron James 3.7 FGA per game in 4.8 MIN

2. Nikola Jokic 3.4 FGA per game in 5.3 MIN

3. Zach LaVine 3.3 FGA per game in 4.1 MIN

His shooting efficiency in crunch time has always been not that good comparing to his scoring volume. Plus his ast:tov ratio is also bad.


Cool so what about his teammates? What are they doing other than hoping can he win the game on his own? If he is playing off ball and get set up for open threes he doesn’t miss them like our other so-called elite shooter. Do you think Zach is the problem? Or is the problem the lack of any decent players to take the burden off him at times? No reliable second option or 3rd option. He isn’t a PG so forcing him into that role will lead to turnovers. This is nothing new. We have no else to do it though. Our second best player is Thad Young. Think about that. Also Lauri sucks and isn’t even starter quality.



He's attempting the 3rd most shots in crunch time and yet his clutch-WPA is only the 55th in the league.

I didn't say LaVine is the problem and I also didn't say his poor performance in crunch time is the reason why the Bulls struggle to close the game.

I just wanted to point out the fact that LaVine is already shooting many shots in crunch time because OP wrote like Donovan forced LaVine not to attempt many shots in crunch time. That's not true.

And let me ask you a question. If you think LaVine is worth his eligible max contract (well above 38M per year) don't you think he should play better than this in crunch time no matter his teammates suck or not? You gonna complain about his teammates just like this even after he receives max contract?
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Re: Why Zach Lavine not taking over in the 4th??? 

Post#20 » by PaKii94 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:38 am

People are stuck in the mentality that any critique of a players game == that player is trash. It can be true that Lavine is an excellent elite scorer and it can also be true he falters during crunch time. Overarching claims don't need to be constantly made

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