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So...we're going to waive Felicio, right?

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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#41 » by Fl_Flash » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:07 pm

UcanUwill wrote:Few years ago I said I had no clue how Felicio got in the league in the first place, let alone how he got that extension, and some Bulls fan responded to me saying how promising he was. I can not believe he got that contract, that is IMO the most incompetent move from NBA exec I have ever seen. I mean there were worse deals, but none of it had less upside than paying Felicio that money, he was so obviously not NBA material and not even close to it.


This is the only way I can wrap my mind around his deal...

They basically gave Felicio retirement wealth so that he becomes something of a de-facto (or possibly even an employed) scout for the Bulls in Brazil. Brazil is a huge, untapped, source of athletic players. Much like Africa. There's a lot of really raw talent there from a sports crazed nation. If you have a guy like Felicio who may well become a part of Brazillian basketball - he's going to be able to see a lot of players and be able to relay to the Bulls anyone who looks to have real ability. The reward for unearthing a giannis-like talent is far greater than the $32 mil (or whatever it was) that you paid Felicio. In an absolute sense, that money was going to be paid out to another player\players anyway of the same span.

Again - I can't think of any other even semi-rational reason as to why the Bulls gave him that contract minutes after the Free Agent period started.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#42 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:19 pm

HomoSapien wrote:It seems like we are keeping him. Maybe the goal is to sign him to a large unguaranteed contract next year to use as a trade chip?


That's the only thing that would make sense. Meanwhile, Felicio right now:

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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#43 » by mlitney01 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:19 pm

Fl_Flash wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:Few years ago I said I had no clue how Felicio got in the league in the first place, let alone how he got that extension, and some Bulls fan responded to me saying how promising he was. I can not believe he got that contract, that is IMO the most incompetent move from NBA exec I have ever seen. I mean there were worse deals, but none of it had less upside than paying Felicio that money, he was so obviously not NBA material and not even close to it.


This is the only way I can wrap my mind around his deal...

They basically gave Felicio retirement wealth so that he becomes something of a de-facto (or possibly even an employed) scout for the Bulls in Brazil. Brazil is a huge, untapped, source of athletic players. Much like Africa. There's a lot of really raw talent there from a sports crazed nation. If you have a guy like Felicio who may well become a part of Brazillian basketball - he's going to be able to see a lot of players and be able to relay to the Bulls anyone who looks to have real ability. The reward for unearthing a giannis-like talent is far greater than the $32 mil (or whatever it was) that you paid Felicio. In an absolute sense, that money was going to be paid out to another player\players anyway of the same span.

Again - I can't think of any other even semi-rational reason as to why the Bulls gave him that contract minutes after the Free Agent period started.


I guess, but why wouldn't they just offer me a scouting position with similar pay? Why let him take up a roster spot and salary?
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#44 » by dougthonus » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:20 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
meekrab wrote:
Taikuri wrote:Funny to read this thing from 2017 about Felicio. I'm trying to understand why he got paid this much still.

I assume it's either money laundering or blackmail. :lol: Nobody else was gonna pay him a dime above the minimum, I don't understand who GarPax thought they were bidding against.


Few years ago I said I had no clue how Felicio got in the league in the first place, let alone how he got that extension, and some Bulls fan responded to me saying how promising he was. I can not believe he got that contract, that is IMO the most incompetent move from NBA exec I have ever seen. I mean there were worse deals, but none of it had less upside than paying Felicio that money, he was so obviously not NBA material and not even close to it.


I'm not saying this to defend this signing in any way. I didn't like it when they made it.

However, you have to put a few things in perspective:
1: This was less than the full MLE at time of signing (and today). That automatically makes it a pretty low value contract in the grand scheme of things. People think the total money due is way more than it really is relative to the league's payments. How much upside do you need to see for a sub MLE deal?

2: It was no where near as bad as most of the contracts given out the previous year due to the cap increase.

Neither of these points justify a miss, but there are two things that upset me here and neither really is the amount of money per se, but the the approach towards negotiations.

1: Why did you go four years? You go four years because you think he's going to bust out and be a huge value on years 3/4, but then why could you not get a team option for year 4? If you did this as 3 and a team, then I think this deal wouldn't have been such a big deal. Sub MLE bust after three years? You'd just shrug your shoulders.

2: Why did you deliver this huge offer on the eve of free agency? Who else was going to come running to bid on Felicio? If you were just patient, the way the market developed would have made it obvious you vastly overpaid this guy, but you ran to get this deal done that had no options in your favor right away.

If you had waited, and it was going to cost the same deal to keep him then I would have understood. If you had just negotiated an option in here and paid him based on potential then I'd have understood. The total amounts of money can be weird in the NBA, and the total amount wasn't really THAT high here in the grand scheme of things, but it showed a lot of ineptitude around the margins which was actually fairly rare for that FO which was typically pretty strong around getting players on smaller deals, non guaranteed years, and other such things.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#45 » by Fl_Flash » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:50 pm

mlitney01 wrote:
Fl_Flash wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:Few years ago I said I had no clue how Felicio got in the league in the first place, let alone how he got that extension, and some Bulls fan responded to me saying how promising he was. I can not believe he got that contract, that is IMO the most incompetent move from NBA exec I have ever seen. I mean there were worse deals, but none of it had less upside than paying Felicio that money, he was so obviously not NBA material and not even close to it.


This is the only way I can wrap my mind around his deal...

They basically gave Felicio retirement wealth so that he becomes something of a de-facto (or possibly even an employed) scout for the Bulls in Brazil. Brazil is a huge, untapped, source of athletic players. Much like Africa. There's a lot of really raw talent there from a sports crazed nation. If you have a guy like Felicio who may well become a part of Brazillian basketball - he's going to be able to see a lot of players and be able to relay to the Bulls anyone who looks to have real ability. The reward for unearthing a giannis-like talent is far greater than the $32 mil (or whatever it was) that you paid Felicio. In an absolute sense, that money was going to be paid out to another player\players anyway of the same span.

Again - I can't think of any other even semi-rational reason as to why the Bulls gave him that contract minutes after the Free Agent period started.


I guess, but why wouldn't they just offer me a scouting position with similar pay? Why let him take up a roster spot and salary?


Well, are you a Brazilian who has just spent the last five (or whatever) years on an NBA squad? I thought I had read somewhere that Chris is thinking to get involved with Brazilian basketball in some capacity. It makes sense as he is going to have some sort of credibility as having spent years with an NBA squad. If he can funnel info back to AKME\Pax\Whomever regarding raw, young guys to keep an eye on well before they're on the rest of the NBA's radar -that's got value. Toronto swung (and missed) on Bruno Cabocolo - but it was a super low-risk, high upside move. Those guys are there in Brazil right now. The trick is identifying them and getting them into a system that develops them.

With respect to the roster spot and salary - the Bulls would have spent that money on another player\players anyways. Sure, they could have possibly found a MLE guy who could contribute somewhat - but to what end?

I have no clue if this angle has even a snowballs chance in hell of being accurate. There just doesn't seem to be any logic\reason as to why you sign Cristiano Felicio to that contract minutes into his free agency.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#46 » by RoseTheFuture22 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:03 pm

Only thing that makes sense is possibly using him in a sign and trade which feels highly unlikely. On paper we do have depth at most positions after the trade so I don't know if we could promise minutes to anybody out there as a FA right now
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#47 » by MrSparkle » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:16 pm

I agree that the 8m figure wasn’t the nut-kicker; it was the 4 years.

2Y + a team option was the way to go. How do you guarantee 4y for a 24yo undrafted project center averaging below 5 pts & rb?

The thing that sealed the goofiness of the deal... was trading away Jimmy for another big (Lauri), keeping Lopez/Portis/Niko on the books. The only players he showed cohesion with were Wade and Butler, who desperately needed a big screener, roll man and drop coverage help. I found it funny they locked him up after planning to dump those two, creating a log-jam of inexperienced big men with no competent PG.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#48 » by sco » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:38 pm

With Theis, missing a few games for some sort of lingering personal issue, maybe the Bulls kept Felicio around for emergency depth.

I am still holding out hope that some team with a competent vet PG lets him walk. Was hoping for Teague (whiff), maybe Bradley?

I saw my UofM dude Iggy B got dumped...may be worth a look, but he's had plenty of opportunities to catch on already.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#49 » by Ice Man » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:52 pm

A lot of hindsight bias on this thread. I remember the deal. Felicio played pretty well as a rookie. He was agile for his weight and strong, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and near the end of the season he got hot and was hitting midrange jumpers. When he was signed for 4 years the reaction was mixed. Some thought it was a good move to lock in a promising young player at what later might be a bargain contract, others thought that the deal was too long, that if he didn't improve that we would have an albatross.

The second group was right but I honestly don't know how anybody in summer 2017 could have known that a 25 year old player would get noticeably worse after his rookie year.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#50 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:03 pm

Almost Retired wrote:No waiver. We don't want to jeopardize Bulls merchandise sales down in Brazil.


Never seen a single Felicio jersey down here.
MJ stuff? Daily
Zach? Yeah, quite often.
Pippen, Rose, Noah, still common.
But never, ever, seen a Felicio one.
Ok, Zach is pretty awesome, we should use capspace to give him a full max next off-season.
We should still trade Lauri, Otto, Young and Sato for the best we can get.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#51 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:04 pm

Ice Man wrote:A lot of hindsight bias on this thread. I remember the deal. Felicio played pretty well as a rookie. He was agile for his weight and strong, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and near the end of the season he got hot and was hitting midrange jumpers. When he was signed for 4 years the reaction was mixed. Some thought it was a good move to lock in a promising young player at what later might be a bargain contract, others thought that the deal was too long, that if he didn't improve that we would have an albatross.

The second group was right but I honestly don't know how anybody in summer 2017 could have known that a 25 year old player would get noticeably worse after his rookie year.

It was obvious from the moment it was signed that GarPax messed up. One of the worst signings I can recall.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#52 » by Ice Man » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:15 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:It was obvious from the moment it was signed that GarPax messed up. One of the worst signings I can recall.


Every poster here has been wrong about things that he believed at the time were obvious. If you got this one right, you got another wrong. Which makes them not so obvious.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#53 » by Evil_Headband » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:35 pm

I have a confession to make. I enjoy watching Felicio play. Perhaps I’m influenced by being a bit of a contrarian with everyone hating on him. I hope he stays. I acknowledge he’s not very good though.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#54 » by DJhitek » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:37 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Ice Man wrote:A lot of hindsight bias on this thread. I remember the deal. Felicio played pretty well as a rookie. He was agile for his weight and strong, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and near the end of the season he got hot and was hitting midrange jumpers. When he was signed for 4 years the reaction was mixed. Some thought it was a good move to lock in a promising young player at what later might be a bargain contract, others thought that the deal was too long, that if he didn't improve that we would have an albatross.

The second group was right but I honestly don't know how anybody in summer 2017 could have known that a 25 year old player would get noticeably worse after his rookie year.

It was obvious from the moment it was signed that GarPax messed up. One of the worst signings I can recall.


I hated the deal the minute it was announced. The amount of money and timing made absolutely no sense.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#55 » by sco » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:40 pm

DJhitek wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Ice Man wrote:A lot of hindsight bias on this thread. I remember the deal. Felicio played pretty well as a rookie. He was agile for his weight and strong, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and near the end of the season he got hot and was hitting midrange jumpers. When he was signed for 4 years the reaction was mixed. Some thought it was a good move to lock in a promising young player at what later might be a bargain contract, others thought that the deal was too long, that if he didn't improve that we would have an albatross.

The second group was right but I honestly don't know how anybody in summer 2017 could have known that a 25 year old player would get noticeably worse after his rookie year.

It was obvious from the moment it was signed that GarPax messed up. One of the worst signings I can recall.


I hated the deal the minute it was announced. The amount of money and timing made absolutely no sense.

I didn't hate the deal because it was declining...too bad he was declining faster!

He showed skill as a rookie. He had very good feet and also had good hands with touch around the rim. IMO, like many guys, the money muted his hunger to improve (coupled with Chicago pizza).
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#56 » by dougthonus » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:56 pm

Ice Man wrote:The second group was right but I honestly don't know how anybody in summer 2017 could have known that a 25 year old player would get noticeably worse after his rookie year.


I don't think the deal was so awful, as I noted above, it was more the fact they didn't get an option and they rushed to get it done instead of seeing the market develop. A little patience was going to make this deal half as big for the Bulls, and if there was some team chasing him, there's no way it was going to cost them notably more to wait (plus he was an RFA anyway so they could match).

Obviously no one could know a 25 year old is going to decline rather than continue to work after getting paid, especially knowing Felicio's story, that feels like something you wouldn't expect.

That said, it was a clear overpay based on performance of his first two years. No one should have expected massive improvements from him either based on his age and current abilities. It's not like he had any skills. He was just a big body that played with energy, and they paid him and guaranteed him as if they were 100% sure he would reach his upside. There wasn't any reason to think he would get tons better. He could never shoot, dribble, pass, or defend.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#57 » by ChettheJet » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:04 pm

Maybe Forman or Paxson will write a book someday and then we'll find out the story.

To me they saw him as a rookie and he looked like if he worked hard, hit the weights and lost weight he would be a serviceable backup. None of that happened. It's more entertaining to think that he's going to go home to Brazil, engage the young players down there, dig deep to find some real talent that the Bulls can get in the second round every year. And they all lived happily ever after.

As for right now, there's just no point to waiving him, it's not some team will be in desperate need of a 4th string center to get them to a title and ask for some consideration from the Bulls. He shows up to work on time, doesn't cause trouble here so, so what if he stays
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#58 » by dougthonus » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:36 pm

ChettheJet wrote:As for right now, there's just no point to waiving him, it's not some team will be in desperate need of a 4th string center to get them to a title and ask for some consideration from the Bulls. He shows up to work on time, doesn't cause trouble here so, so what if he stays


The value in waiving him would be bringing in a body that you could look at and might have value at the minimum next year. The roster spot has value.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#59 » by kodo » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:46 pm

He was below rate for a backup center, and projected to be our starting center if he improved.

In 2016, Miles Plumlee signed for 4 years @ $12.5M per year. He averaged 5 ppg 3.8 rpg.
JeVale McGee averaged 6 ppg 3.2 rpg. $12M per year.
The next tier up of guys, like Biyombo, averaged 6 ppg 7 rpg got $17M per year for 4 years.

It wasn't until after this time period where centers became really devalued, as Golden State's style of roster construction became the fad after their 73 win season, where you just ignore the C position from a financial perspective. You just fill in whatever you can as an afterthought.

I think the mistake wasn't $8M at that time period, not when Plumlee was making $12-$13M, but the # of years. The length was banking that he'd improve which was the big blown call. But a backup center for $8M for just 1 year, would have been a normal move back then.
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Re: So...we're going to waive Felicio, right? 

Post#60 » by sco » Fri Apr 9, 2021 6:30 pm

kodo wrote:He was below rate for a backup center, and projected to be our starting center if he improved.

In 2016, Miles Plumlee signed for 4 years @ $12.5M per year. He averaged 5 ppg 3.8 rpg.
JeVale McGee averaged 6 ppg 3.2 rpg. $12M per year.
The next tier up of guys, like Biyombo, averaged 6 ppg 7 rpg got $17M per year for 4 years.

It wasn't until after this time period where centers became really devalued, as Golden State's style of roster construction became the fad after their 73 win season, where you just ignore the C position from a financial perspective. You just fill in whatever you can as an afterthought.

I think the mistake wasn't $8M at that time period, not when Plumlee was making $12-$13M, but the # of years. The length was banking that he'd improve which was the big blown call. But a backup center for $8M for just 1 year, would have been a normal move back then.

I feel like the buyer's remorse on the Felicio deal ultimately contributed to the Bulls not paying to keep Mirotic too.
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