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What exactly is the plan?

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Re: What exactly is the The plan? 

Post#221 » by Am2626 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:54 pm

dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:The plan is putting together our own big 3

we don't even have a big 1. and that's the fundamental problem with choosing this path to potential contention. we're now dependent on a genuine star wanting to come play with 1x all-star zach lavine and 2x all-star nikola vucevic. seems pretty far-fetched. but to answer the thread query, that apparently is the plan

And we still have PLENTY of assets to pull of another big deal in the offseason. Just need to be ready when the next star asks out.

no, no we don't have plenty of assets to land a star. we have a 2022 draft pick that projects to be middling and 2 young guys that will almost certainly never become all-stars in coby white and patrick williams

we now have 2 BORDERLINE all-stars (not all all-stars are created equal, obviously), one of whom has never had an impact on winning that comes anywhere close to his reputation as a player but will almost certainly be getting a max contract soon. and while i don't see it as a likely problem, there's no guarantee that lavine will even adapt well to playing with another quality option on offense

vucevic was obviously acquired in significant part to increase the chances of making the playoffs this season. even that is very unlikely. this is not a terrible trade simply because vucevic is on a very reasonable contract. but it's sure as hell nothing to get excited about. maybe if we were on the level of knicks fans...is that what we ARE now?

i would now wager that the orlando magic make a conference finals before the bulls do


LaVine is 26 years old just coming into his prime now. To say he is a boarderline fringe All Star doesn’t seem accurate. He can very easily make the next 5 All Star Teams. With Vuc yes I can agree at 30 years old he is in the boarderline All Star category but any top 5 -10 player would love to team up with both LaVine and Vuc. That’s a pretty good supporting cast for a Superstar. LaVine himself may be on his way to being a top 10 player.

And to think that Orlando makes a conference finals before the Bulls now is laughable. That team is going absolutely nowhere.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#222 » by HouseOfLight » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:21 pm

LOL @ this dice person’s comments. Crikey! Talk about blatant, thinly veiled bait. It’s wild that some users are actually taking it. Derp
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#223 » by dougthonus » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:31 pm

HouseOfLight wrote:Lol trading for the 3rd/4th best C in the game of basketball, in his prime, to help your already-present all star guard, is a HUGE deal in terms of players wanting to play for the Bulls.


Yeah, stars around the league have been lining up for years wanting to play with Vuc, that's why he recruited so many great players to Orlando.

It speaks volumes about what the Bulls are willing to do to surround their top talent with other top talent, not to mention that ZLV & Vooch are very close friends, this was clearly something that had been planned & pre-meditated for weeks/months before it actually happened.


Source? A quick search and I did not see any comments indicating Zach and Vuc were friends prior to this.

Also, Thibs is the least desirable coach to play for in the NBA. He was voted as such 1.5 years ago in some anonymous players poll. Boylin was right in front of him.


The Bulls signed many players to play for less money than they were offered elsewhere to play with Thibs, so doesn't really seem true despite the survey, or the Bulls culture was so overwhelmingly positive in other ways that Thibs wasn't enough to slow it and head coach simply isn't that important to culture, but I actually think players serious about winning like Thibs.

Players adore Billy D, he’s a super player-friendly coach. Hiring him was a massive get for multiple reasons


That's weird, it's almost like I said that already and you're acting like you're disagreeing with me.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#224 » by HouseOfLight » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:39 pm

I’d wager the plan is to somehow acquire Beal eventually given the Donovan connection & the fact that two all-stars are already in place. They’ll allow Markkanen to walk this off season so they don’t have to take on any incoming $. They’ll attempt to team up Beal with ZLV/Vooch, and figure out the rest along the way. If they’re unable to do that, then I’d assume they’re going to do for Lonzo Ball, who is very young & has tons of upside left to mine, and has been rumoured to desire Chicago/play next to his close friend in ZLV

A lot of the immediate future hinges upon ZLV continuing his unprecedented improvements & getting even better, which is obviously a large question mark, but even if he doesn’t, AK knows what he’s doing. Chicago will be fine no matter what happens, they’re in good hands

In any case, this thread in general is pretty ridiculous lmao. How about the obvious eh? The “plan” is to ACQUIRE TALENT. That’s how sports work, and that’s what the Bulls just did. They acquired a top level piece of talent in a lopsided trade in which they were the victors, end of story. The most profitable sports franchise in one of the largest sports markets on the globe should not give three flying rat butts about draft picks. They can either buy picks if they want them that badly, or just sign these guys once their rookie contracts end

Even if they never make it out of the 2nd rd with Vooch as a primary piece, that’s a HUGE success for a team that hasn’t seen any playoff success in a f***** decade (which was the only playoff success it saw in nearly a quarter century, and the Thibs teams’ success had nothing whatsoever to do with the FO doing their jobs well; it was an utter fluke/stroke of dumb luck & was promptly thwarted by one of the worst management groups in NBA history)
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Re: What exactly is the The plan? 

Post#225 » by dice » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:00 pm

Am2626 wrote:
dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:The plan is putting together our own big 3

we don't even have a big 1. and that's the fundamental problem with choosing this path to potential contention. we're now dependent on a genuine star wanting to come play with 1x all-star zach lavine and 2x all-star nikola vucevic. seems pretty far-fetched. but to answer the thread query, that apparently is the plan

And we still have PLENTY of assets to pull of another big deal in the offseason. Just need to be ready when the next star asks out.

no, no we don't have plenty of assets to land a star. we have a 2022 draft pick that projects to be middling and 2 young guys that will almost certainly never become all-stars in coby white and patrick williams

we now have 2 BORDERLINE all-stars (not all all-stars are created equal, obviously), one of whom has never had an impact on winning that comes anywhere close to his reputation as a player but will almost certainly be getting a max contract soon. and while i don't see it as a likely problem, there's no guarantee that lavine will even adapt well to playing with another quality option on offense

vucevic was obviously acquired in significant part to increase the chances of making the playoffs this season. even that is very unlikely. this is not a terrible trade simply because vucevic is on a very reasonable contract. but it's sure as hell nothing to get excited about. maybe if we were on the level of knicks fans...is that what we ARE now?

i would now wager that the orlando magic make a conference finals before the bulls do


LaVine is 26 years old just coming into his prime now.

nope. that's not how the primes of nba players work. they don't start 'em at age 26. they typically PEAK at age 26, making it the middle of their primes. it's unusual for a player to be at his best at age 30

michael jordan's peak season is often regarded to be at age 27, which is when the bulls won their first title. and it might have been age 24, when he won DPOY. kobe's trajectory was similar



To say he is a boarderline fringe All Star doesn’t seem accurate. He can very easily make the next 5 All Star Teams

if he gets better. do you honestly think that he'll keep getting better after the monster improvement he has made as a scorer this season? it'll be a huge achievement just to MAINTAIN this production

And to think that Orlando makes a conference finals before the Bulls now is laughable. That team is going absolutely nowhere.

orlando is now starting over with draft assets. that's way ahead of the bulls' schedule, who will likely be doing the same thing several years from now after this failed process

when i say that orlando is more likely to get there first, it certainly ain't because i'm high on orlando's future. it's because of the age-old concept of "nba hell" that the bulls are now firmly ensconced in for the foreseeable future
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#226 » by Mbrahv0528 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:07 pm

Goddamn our fan base is never happy.

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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#227 » by Clocian » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:35 pm

Mbrahv0528 wrote:Goddamn our fan base is never happy.

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Yup, hasn't even been a week since the trade. The board was BEGGING for changes to be made. What happens? Half the team is gone at the deadline, and the board is still panicking as if nothing has changed. I mean, it's pretty clear imo that this is just the first move that AKME has in the works. The next will come in free agency and the next deadline.

Til then, the team currently has a lot of games coming up with very limited practice time, and a hobbled Zach. In other words, yall better set expectations for the time being cause it may be rough.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#228 » by dice » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:49 pm

Mbrahv0528 wrote:Goddamn our fan base is never happy.

given the last several years...for good reason. it's not like the complaints are from a position of privilege like all the hand-wringing over bogans ("we need to trade asik for courtney lee!")
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#229 » by dougthonus » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:34 pm

Mbrahv0528 wrote:Goddamn our fan base is never happy.

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The vast majority of people are ecstatic. Not sure what you're reading.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#230 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:08 am

HouseOfLight wrote:Even if they never make it out of the 2nd rd with Vooch as a primary piece, that’s a HUGE success for a team that hasn’t seen any playoff success in a f***** decade

Ah, the old "incredibly low expectations" argument.

Everyone says they're happy now just to improve and be more competitive…but then you have higher expectations…are you still gonna be lovin' those consistent disappointing playoff exits in a few years? (And let's not get ahead of ourselves - they might still not even make the playoffs!)

Who thinks today that the Wall/Beal/Porter era was a HUGE success? Or the AD/Holiday era? Or the current Brogdon/Sabonis era Indy is having?
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#231 » by DJhitek » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:23 am

Just because someone disagrees with the philosophy of trading assets for the most replaceable position in the league doesn’t mean we simply are inadequate as fans.

I can almost guarantee you anyone that has disagreed with this trade has always devalued trading for older players that are centers.

Personally, I’ve moved on to trying to enjoy the product and hope I’m completely wrong.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#232 » by Clocian » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:31 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
HouseOfLight wrote:Even if they never make it out of the 2nd rd with Vooch as a primary piece, that’s a HUGE success for a team that hasn’t seen any playoff success in a f***** decade

Ah, the old "incredibly low expectations" argument.

Everyone says they're happy now just to improve and be more competitive…but then you have higher expectations…are you still gonna be lovin' those consistent disappointing playoff exits in a few years? (And let's not get ahead of ourselves - they might still not even make the playoffs!)

Who thinks today that the Wall/Beal/Porter era was a HUGE success? Or the AD/Holiday era? Or the current Brogdon/Sabonis era Indy is having?


I'd rather make the 2nd round, cheer the team win or lose, and build from there than be an unhappy and miserable fan since the last championship wishing for draft miracles every year. But hey, that's just my perspective *shrug*
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#233 » by Red Larrivee » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:46 am

Leslie Forman wrote:Ah, the old "incredibly low expectations" argument.

Everyone says they're happy now just to improve and be more competitive…but then you have higher expectations…are you still gonna be lovin' those consistent disappointing playoff exits in a few years? (And let's not get ahead of ourselves - they might still not even make the playoffs!)

Who thinks today that the Wall/Beal/Porter era was a HUGE success? Or the AD/Holiday era? Or the current Brogdon/Sabonis era Indy is having?


What about the Mitchell/Gobert era?

2020 - 1st round exit
2019 - 1st round exit
2018 - 2nd round exit
2017 - 2nd round exit

They currently have the best record in the league and a shot to win an NBA championship this year.

Utah landed significant contributors from waivers (Ingles), trade (Clarkson, Conley), free agency (Bogdanovic), and the draft (O'Neale) to build around their best players, who they also traded for.

The idea that being a competitive non-title contender is a faulty NBA strategy doesn't vibe. You build up a floor of playoff appearances and exhaust each market to make your team better. Every team isn't going to win a championship or even make the conference finals regardless of the route you take. Portland has 1 conference finals appearance in 9 years with one of the greatest scoring point guards ever. Denver has 1 conference finals appearance in 5 years with Jokic. You may easily build up a good, but not great team that never wins a title, and that's fine.

Tanking can be a viable strategy, but there are more things out of your control. You are hoping for ping pong balls to bounce your way in the right year that a generational talent is available. And even then, only three #1 overall picks in the last 30 years have won a championship with the team who originally selected them: Duncan, LeBron, Irving. And two of those were only because LeBron came back AFTER leaving.

It's easy to criticize this move, but it's tougher to come up with a better alternative that doesn't involve more years of perennial tanking.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#234 » by Wingy » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:46 am

dice wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:Goddamn our fan base is never happy.

given the last several years...for good reason. it's not like the complaints are from a position of privilege like all the hand-wringing over bogans ("we need to trade asik for courtney lee!")


I agree it’s incredibly unlikely to work out, but just about every plan is unlikely to work out unless you’re the Lakers.

So all the doom, and gloom in every thread is great - and I get where it comes from...I really do. But what’s your plan?

Draft a superstar? Maybe we could’ve had the joy of tanking, drafting Suggs...then watching him turn into a Mike Conley...Chauncey Billups level player? Maybe Mobley becomes a Chris Bosh level player? Maybe Green’s the next Lavine?
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#235 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:48 am

Clocian wrote:I'd rather make the 2nd round, cheer the team win or lose, and build from there than be an unhappy and miserable fan since the last championship wishing for draft miracles every year. But hey, that's just my perspective *shrug*

Sixers fans loved Hinkie and have turned him into a cult figure. OKC fans are absolutely loving what Presti's doing.

I just want a clear freakin direction, man. This middling-random-vet-patchwork-team-that-barely-makes-the-playoffs thing is exactly what the board hated four years ago and unless Pat goes parabolic I'm not sure how that's not what this looks like right now.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#236 » by dice » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:51 am

Wingy wrote:
dice wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:Goddamn our fan base is never happy.

given the last several years...for good reason. it's not like the complaints are from a position of privilege like all the hand-wringing over bogans ("we need to trade asik for courtney lee!")


I agree it’s incredibly unlikely to work out, but just about every plan is unlikely to work out unless you’re the Lakers.

So all the doom, and gloom in every thread is great - and I get where it comes from...I really do. But what’s your plan?

my plan was/is to trade lavine for as many young assets/picks you can find rather than overpaying him soon

make quality moves. that's always the plan. trade bad value for good value. if you can't find good value, sign players to short-term "prove it" deals. rinse and repeat until you strike gold, or if you get to the point where the raptors were for several years pre-kawhi, being a fringe contender ain't a bad place to be
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#237 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:02 am

DJhitek wrote:Just because someone disagrees with the philosophy of trading assets for the most replaceable position in the league doesn’t mean we simply are inadequate as fans.

I can almost guarantee you anyone that has disagreed with this trade has always devalued trading for older players that are centers.

Personally, I’ve moved on to trying to enjoy the product and hope I’m completely wrong.


The Vuc trade is the opposite of the direction I hoped AKME would take and I’m skeptical it’ll work out.

But you can’t fight city hall and I’m so tired of being angry. Go Bulls.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#238 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:18 am

Red Larrivee wrote:What about the Mitchell/Gobert era?

2020 - 1st round exit
2019 - 1st round exit
2018 - 2nd round exit
2017 - 2nd round exit

They currently have the best record in the league and a shot to win an NBA championship this year.

1. I don't think Utah is anything more than a fake contender without a shot overachieving in the regular season, like the Thibs Bulls, last year's Bucks, or that Atlanta team from several years ago.
2. They play some serious defense. Elite defense is exactly how non-superstar teams overachieve (and make people think they're true contenders when they really aren't). Hell this is basically the Chicago Bears strategy to somehow falling into a random ass good team every decade or so with total garbage at QB.

Where is the defensive identity here? They just traded two huge chips for a 30-year-old defensive liability who plays the most impactful defensive position in the game. They are probably gonna hand out a max deal to LaVine. They are building a team around two straight up defensive liabilities right now.

How is this team that's built more like a homeless man's Denver anything like a Utah team with one of the greatest defensive centers of all-time?
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#239 » by Red Larrivee » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:31 am

Leslie Forman wrote:1. I don't think Utah is anything more than a fake contender without a shot overachieving in the regular season, like the Thibs Bulls, last year's Bucks, or that Atlanta team from several years ago.
2. They play some serious defense. Elite defense is exactly how non-superstar teams overachieve (and make people think they're true contenders when they really aren't). Hell this is basically the Chicago Bears strategy to somehow falling into a random ass good team every decade or so with total garbage at QB.

Where is the defensive identity here? They just traded two huge chips for a 30-year-old defensive liability who plays the most impactful defensive position in the game. They are probably gonna hand out a max deal to LaVine. They are building a team around two straight up defensive liabilities right now.

How is this team that's built more like a homeless man's Denver anything like a Utah team with one of the greatest defensive centers of all-time?


Regardless of whether you think Utah will ultimately win a title or not (I don't think they will), they have a shot that isn't 0, which is ultimately all you can ask for without having a highly favorable situation like Brooklyn.

I'm not predicting the Bulls will be in Utah's situation; I'm saying that being a competitive non-contender has upside if you consistently exhaust each market as teams like Utah do. There will always be teams who flame out like Washington or Orlando did, but that doesn't mean it isn't a viable and practical route. Hell, even Boston is showing signs of hitting the wall after having all those assets.

You're praying for some sort of luck regardless of the route you choose, but one clearly requires more hands-off luck than the other.

The Bulls have chosen a direction; whether people agree with it or not doesn't mean there isn't a direction.
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Re: What exactly is the plan? 

Post#240 » by Wingy » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:36 am

dice wrote:my plan was/is to trade lavine for as many young assets/picks you can find rather than overpaying him soon


Sounds like you're hoping for the very unlikely outcome of one, or more of those picks becoming as good as Zach Lavine, and Nik Vucevic. Having them turn out better than those guys becomes even more unlikely. Plus they need to stay healthy (hello, Derrick Rose...Grant Hill...Penny Hardaway, etc.).

Then the next idea for this plan becomes flipping these young asset/picks for a superstar, right? Also extremely unlikely because we are not LA, Miami, or even Brooklyn. The superstars dictate where they go. Why are they choosing a much worse version of this team, and franchise?

dice wrote:make quality moves. that's always the plan. trade bad value for good value. if you can't find good value, sign players to short-term "prove it" deals. rinse and repeat until you strike gold, or if you get to the point where the raptors were for several years pre-kawhi, being a fringe contender ain't a bad place to be


Quality moves and all the stuff you said in the first part there. Why can't that be done from the position we're in now? We have a FO with an eye for NBA talent. Continuing to tinker from where we are right now can land us in that Raptors-zone where you're looking for one lucky move, or pick to get you over the hump. Red L pointed out the Jazz as a great example of slowly building up over time from a similar position as us.

AK appears to have just made the kind of move that hits on both things you're suggesting. Throwing out what has been garbage to us for an upside player in TBJ. Of course there's no guarantees on TBJ, but that's the exact sort of "gold" opportunity we're hoping to strike. While also grabbing Theis who isn't shiny whatsoever, but just plays winning ball. We had no depth, now suddenly we have minutes battles throughout. I'm sure AK will continue to improve the roster up, and down so we get better and better. No more try hard plucky Arcidiaconos. No more Felicios.

Then look at the current elite teams:
- Lakers - Father Time is going to beat even Lebron, and AD is injury-prone.
- Nets - Durant/Kyrie are injury-prone, plus it's a pretty volatile mix that's also aging into their 30s
- Bucks - for all Giannis is, does he have the look of a guy who's going to dominate scoring late in the playoffs? He can get better, so maybe.
- Sixers - probably the toughest team for us, but can Embiid keep staying healthy w/deep post season runs, and w/o an elite offensive perimeter player to go w/him?

These teams are much better than us right now mind you, but they are heavily flawed. This is not the GSW/Cavs era we saw a few years ago. Keep getting better until you're that true pretender right behind those teams (AK's working on it), then you're hoping to get lucky. It's just a different attempt at being lucky than hoping for a drafted superstar, or a string of consecutive all star players drafted (e.g. - Warriors).

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