What exactly is the plan?

[nomorezorro]

I think this place vastly overrates the extent to which winning helps you attract players.

I obviously disagree. While winning may not guarantee that you will land good players, losing makes it impossible. Zero percent. A losing franchise has no shot of a player demanding to come there via trade or agreeing to sign via free agency. A winning team at least has a shot.

i think you're both right, tbh. i think the past few years shows that it's possible to land meaningfully good players in free agency regardless of what your record is (grant, brogdon, christian wood, etc). but if you're trying to position yourself to land the true upper echelon of free agents, then yeah, you have to put yourself in a position where a player could think "i want to be in chicago." then you just reverse engineer a money situation that works for everyone, tie a draft asset to a salary dump if you need to

above all else, i've kind of come to the conclusion that there's no one "ideal way" to build a championship-caliber basketball team. AK has chosen to build a "good" basketball team, and presumably from there he will try to make the arduous grind of turning it into a great one. it's not as simple as "suck until you draft a superstar," but it's much more fun to watch as a fan, so i'm on board.

[Shill]

One thing I do agree with though is that barring a trade for a third star, the ceiling of AK’s deals are heavily reliant on Patrick Lee Williams becoming the third star.

He sounds like a folk singer.

I don't know why, but envision Gordon Lightfoot when I see Patrick Lee Williams.

[madvillian]

I think the plan is to win some more games, quite succinctly.

[Shill]

It seems like we're taking a Toronto Raptors approach, i.e. incrementally improve the team with imperfect pieces, then make a splash play for a true superstar.

[Bulls619sd]

One step at a time! Make a step this year and get some experience, make Lauri look good, recruit DeRozan, signing and trade for DeRozan, develop players.

Thank god you aren’t in charge. A soon to be 32 year old shooting guard (a position we have) that can’t shoot or play defense? Yikes.

Lol I don't see how we do any better, that we're going to be able to recruit or trade Lauri for. DeRozan can play the point forward while the young guys develop. The organization was talking about pairing DeRozan with Lavine before the trade deadline. I like the idea of him as a third banana for like 5 years or something. Of course I would like Leonard or Lillard but really how realistic is that.

people here were really trying to get rid of all of our youngsters to get Ball. Honestly I'm tired of getting players on potential I rather have a finished product for now

[umfan83]

I dont understand the gripe. The ways to get a superstar are:

-Draft one which you have to tank to do (unless you get lucky and get one later in the draft which is not something you can bank on
-Sign one which takes multiple years of planning and sacrificing team building in the hopes that a FA chooses you
-Trade for one which requires a superstar that wants to come to your team

Tanking made sense after Jimmy left as the Bulls had very few assets that were compelling for a superstar trade, and the reputation of the franchise was not going to allow us to luck into a superstar trying to come here. At this stage weve compiled draft picks and have some solid assets, players other teams will take on. But we still don't have the buzz. Zach is establishing himself as a star, but what player looks at Chicago's situation and says 'I need to force my way here'. The Bulls are good enough to be at the back of the lottery but bad enough to not be a serious threat. So they could either continue drafting like 12th and hope you pick another star, gut the team and rebuild again, or make the team more attractive to superstars. Now you are looking at the Bulls having 2 "B-Level Stars" that don't have to be 'the guy' but provide a ton of value to a superstar looking for a team he can fit into. While the 1st round pick situation sucks a bit, they still have tradeable assets, can still do pick swaps and can still make 3 team trades with teams that have 1sts. If a superstar wants to come here, we can make it happen. And joining a team with Zach, Vucevic and PWill is plenty appealing to a superstar in need of a new home.

Just my 2 cents

[Michael Jackson]

I’m not for being the Cavs who get picks and never see the reward (I mean Lebron had to come back for any success). The wolves have had a bunch of high draft picks too and we very well may have gotten their best draft pick. I mean KAT arguably is better but Zach is a way more motivated competitor. New Orleans lost AD, they may very well lose Zion too when the time comes too. Drafting a star surely doesn’t mean they stay unless you compete or they aren’t that good (ahem back to KAT). Giannis is the recent exception... but it is still a bit ugly for the Bucks and Giannis is not the norm either. What AK did is not amazing, but I think it is a smarter way of attacking the problem. The Clippers, Raptors, and Nets have done better than the tankers as far as getting better and getting stars. Far from a guarantee of success but it is a smart tactic especially if you fell ME has good player relationships and we can swing further deals.

[BeatDaCavs420]

Is this a troll thread? Did you forget the green font? I can't believe people are really thinking like this after all the hell we been though with gar/pax....Wow lmao

[iqureshi]

I think this post is nonsense. This was such a coup. The cap flexibility we have with 2 all stars w each make under 25million is insane. We are instantly the go ţo free agency destination for any star looking for ring chasing. Akme seems talented in filling in the gaps with undervalued sleepers. We are one player away from being contenders. How many years has it been since we've said that and have cap flexibility to go with it. See the bulls only offering 1/2 year deals waiting for next disgruntled star opts out. Zach and vuc just need to ball out next few months,n rest will handle itself

[Leslie Forman]

At any given time, there are going to be multiple teams who can offer contracts. The guys who are good are looking for big contracts and they will get similar offers from every team. The player is going to choose the winning situation first, then amongst the winning situations they will choose weather.

Haven't Kawhi, Grant, Kyrie/KD, Lillard, and basically Beal (still seems content in DC) proven that wrong?

"Winning" as in "hey we won 42 games instead of 33!" doesn't seem to matter, but rather having a real, true superstar that's seen as a "winner" is what seems to matter. That's what makes other true superstars want to actually join you. They are not joining to play with goddamn Nicola Vucevic or Zach LaVine - they are joining you to play with a Dwyane Wade or Steph Curry. They want another playoff proven stud next to them, not some guys who have literally never done anything more than get gentlemen's swept in the playoffs.

But here's the thing - who is that even? What superstar that's an FA in the next 3 years (that you'd even want to sign to a max) would even think of passing up a supermax to come to Chicago over their current (or even another) situation? For whatever reason, there is a serious gap generationally right now in the league's superstars - there are not a lot of guys between 25 and 30 right now that are that guy.

I have yet to see anyone explain exactly how this is not really much different from what Orlando, or Charlotte, or Sacramento have tried. Add vets, max out "winning" with some good but no really great players, and pray for a stud draft pick.

Touche. In a different thread I noted that the Bulls missed on every first round pick from 2012 to 2019. These are not good players. Of course, if I concede that then the pro-tanking crowd has to concede that drafting odds are terrible.

Post-Lloyd MyHusbandPax were basically guaranteed to be terrible drafters, and I kept trying to let everyone realize it here (which they refused to until the end). They had the smallest, most outdated, nepotism-infested team running them. They're gone now.

You are one of the biggest proponents of just gradually building up your way to titles - but this franchise actually just gave up two of the biggest ways non-tank teams become title winners - later draft picks.

GSW - Steph, Klay
Miami - Wade
Toronto - DeRozan, Poeltl
Dallas - Dirk

All of these mid-late lottery picks were vital as either being the star players, or being the trade chips that got the star player, and the Bulls just gave up two of them for a 30-year-old center that's never won more than 42 games.

[nomorezorro]

Haven't Kawhi, Grant, Kyrie/KD, Lillard, and basically Beal (still seems content in DC) proven that wrong?

"Winning" as in "hey we won 42 games instead of 33!" doesn't seem to matter, but rather having a real, true superstar that's seen as a "winner" is what seems to matter. That's what makes other true superstars want to actually join you. They are not joining to play with goddamn Nicola Vucevic or Zach LaVine - they are joining you to play with a Dwyane Wade or Steph Curry. They want another playoff proven stud next to them, not some guys who have literally never done anything more than get gentlemen's swept in the playoffs.

I have yet to see anyone explain exactly how this is not really much different from what Orlando, or Charlotte, or Sacramento have tried. Add vets, max out "winning" with some good but no really great players, and pray for a stud draft pick.

1. kawhi went to a playoff team in a major market that won 48 games. kd and kyrie went to an above-.500 playoff team in a major market. nobody of major import has signed with the knicks in forever despite them always having money to toss around, and the only time in recent memory that a star forced his way there was after they signed an all-star free agent and hired a big-name head coach.

it seems like establishing at least a baseline air of competency is absolutely a motivating factor in making sure stars feel comfortable switching teams; otherwise you have to luck into a situation where the players have reason to believe they can adequately reshape the roster in a favorable manner (lebron going to miami where wade already was; lebron going to the lakers which had a suite of young assets that could be packaged for a second star)

2. i would say one way in which this is different from what orlando and charlotte and sacramento have done is that we have two all-star caliber players. i guess i could see other ways in which our approach is similar (we are acquiring the services of basketball players and paying them them in hopes that they will try their hardest to win basketball games), but it still feels like "having two really good players" is a meaningfully distinct approach from what those other teams have done

[nomorezorro]

i think it's fair to be skeptical about how this move actually pans out long term, but i don't think people who advocate for a tank are in a position to ask "how is this different from what [a franchise that his been mired in mediocrity for an extended period of time] has done?????"

[Leslie Forman]

1. kawhi went to a playoff team in a major market that won 48 games.

yeah, and passed up signing with a playoff team in a major market that he WON THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP with

kd and kyrie went to an above-.500 playoff team in a major market

yeah, and passed up signing with a playoff team in a major market that he WON THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP with

2. i would say one way in which this is different from what orlando and charlotte and sacramento have done is that we have two all-star caliber players. i guess i could see other ways in which our approach is similar (we are acquiring the services of basketball players and paying them them in hopes that they will try their hardest to win basketball games), but it still feels like "having two really good players" is a meaningfully distinct approach from what those other teams have done

Kemba Walker and DeMarcus Cousins were All-Stars, were superstars dying to play with them?

"All-star" doesn't mean crap. LeBrons and KDs don't want to play with an "all-star," that is the equivalent of a "Pro Bowl" player.

They basically want the equivalent of All-Pro QBs to play with, and those aren't here, and I don't see how they're any closer to getting one of those here. The guys that don't, well those guys go to LA/NY/Miami. Only guys actually from here give a sh*t about Chicago, and unfortunately the only superstar from here is already in LA.

[nomorezorro]

kemba walker and demarcus cousins were famously one player each. one of the main points of my post is that we have two good players

[logical_art]

Sell more tickets.

[TheFinishSniper]

Simple words I will use. Plan is not suck.

[nomorezorro]

re: kyrie/kd/kawhi - i don't think anyone has suggested that players just sign wherever they are most likely to win a championship. superstar players do tend to move to teams who they perceive to be capable of winning a championship. establishing a reputation as a competent franchise is more or less a prerequisite for being in a position to land elite talent, and this trade helps us do it. (at the same time, it should also help the bulls win more basketball games over the next few years, which some people would argue is one of the main points of running a basketball team)

we probably won't sign or trade for a superstar going forward, because it's really hard to do that. we probably wouldn't draft or trade for a superstar if we decided to focus on building through the draft, because it's really hard to do that too. it's hard to build a championship level basketball team!

people on this board have debated the best teambuilding approach since, like, 2016, and i think the fact that there's not a definitive answer is strong evidence that it doesn't matter all that much which route you take. pick a coherent direction, make moves you think are good from a value perspective, pray you get lucky, see where the pieces fall.

[coldfish]

I have yet to see anyone explain exactly how this is not really much different from what Orlando, or Charlotte, or Sacramento have tried. Add vets, max out "winning" with some good but no really great players, and pray for a stud draft pick.

There is no model that works in the NBA. I think that needs to be clear. If I had to put odds on how this will turn out (over the next 4 years):
40% Complete Failure. Either due to injury or bad chemistry, the team still isn't a playoff team and gives away a few #10 picks on the way to a blow up.
30% Playoff fodder. Team becomes one of those low end playoff teams that gets bounced easily every year. No playoff wins and miss a year.
25% Competitive playoff team. Win a few playoff rounds, maybe make an ECF.
3% Contender. One of the top 4 teams in the NBA talked about as a possible winner.
2% Win a title

You can point out all of the failures in this and I'm right there with you. I know that there is a very good chance this isn't going to work. The Bulls just put together two career losing players who happened to make an all star game at the same time. That's not a recipe for a dynasty.

Where I actually disagree with you is tanking. The odds of tanking turning into anything worth watching are far, far worse. The response from the tankers is that the team just didn't tank hard or long enough because to some people the draft lottery is like a drug where they just need one more hit. I've gone on many times how tanking is a trap and there are real mechanisms in place, from the CBA to development, that make it so.

.....

That's the strategic viewpoint. Operationally is a different discussion. I wouldn't endorse this if the Bulls paired Lavine with Ben Wallace or something. Personally, I think that guys like Coby and Wendell (and possibly PW and LM) have dragged the team down a lot this year. There are only a handful of people on the Bulls that even take their job seriously and when Lavine has been on the floor with them, the team isn't bad.

I think the same thing about Vucevic and beyond that, Vucevic, Lavine and BD's offense really work well together. The modern NBA is far more inside outside than people realize. The fact that Lavine and Vuc can play off each other, collapse defenses and find shooters is really going to be fun to watch. I think that if you get a 3rd quality player and surround them with vets that take their jobs seriously, the team could be much better than people are giving it credit for. I see that its a blind risk worth taking.

I'm also a little older unfortunately. I remember the 80's when a team built around a SG stood no chance of winning and was largely laughed at. I also remember Steph Curry being a disappointing draft pick at age 25 after getting bounced in the first round again.

I'm not saying that Zach is the next MJ or Curry but I'm willing to roll the dice and see if he can be more than he has been up until this point and the same with Vuc.

[dougthonus]

There is no model that works in the NBA. I think that needs to be clear. If I had to put odds on how this will turn out (over the next 4 years):
40% Complete Failure. Either due to injury or bad chemistry, the team still isn't a playoff team and gives away a few #10 picks on the way to a blow up.
30% Playoff fodder. Team becomes one of those low end playoff teams that gets bounced easily every year. No playoff wins and miss a year.
25% Competitive playoff team. Win a few playoff rounds, maybe make an ECF.
3% Contender. One of the top 4 teams in the NBA talked about as a possible winner.
2% Win a title

I think the odds of "competitive playoff team" are considerably less than you, though also think complete failure is probably less than you too.

I'd say something like:
25% complete failure (no playoff appearances)
50% playoff fodder (no playoff wins, make playoffs at least 2 of next 3 years including this one)
20% quasi competitive - do not get out of the 2nd round, but make the 2nd round once or twice
~4% make an ECF
less than 1% be contender (top 4 team in the league)

[NZB2323]

We're like the 2007 Bulls who traded away Tyson Chandler and signed Ben Wallace. Our ceiling is losing in the 2nd round, unless some star decides he really wants to play with Lavine and Vuc in Chicago.