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Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer

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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#61 » by sco » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:50 pm

ZOMG wrote:If there ever was any goodwill that could have led to Lauri helping the team in the process of moving him to a new destination... I'd say it's all evaporated now with the way he's been embarrassed lately. We'll see if it blows up on AK's face.

ZOMG, c'mon do not respect your favorite player enough to think he will act like a 12 year-old-girl? (an no offense intended if you or others are 12 year old girls) These guys get it.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#62 » by ZOMG » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 pm

sco wrote:
ZOMG wrote:If there ever was any goodwill that could have led to Lauri helping the team in the process of moving him to a new destination... I'd say it's all evaporated now with the way he's been embarrassed lately. We'll see if it blows up on AK's face.

ZOMG, c'mon do not respect your favorite player enough to think he will act like a 12 year-old-girl? (an no offense intended if you or others are 12 year old girls) These guys get it.


He's not my "favorite player", he has way too many flaws for that. But he's been horribly mismanaged from the start, which has hurt this team. I'm way too logical to ignore things like that, and they get me fired up. Such is life.

As for acting like a 12 year old girl... I don't see it like that. In the NBA, players hold grudges against teams / FO's all the time if they get f**ked over. And Lauri is definitely getting f**ked over. We'll see how he handles it.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#63 » by HomoSapien » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:17 pm

sco wrote:
ZOMG wrote:If there ever was any goodwill that could have led to Lauri helping the team in the process of moving him to a new destination... I'd say it's all evaporated now with the way he's been embarrassed lately. We'll see if it blows up on AK's face.


ZOMG, c'mon do not respect your favorite player enough to think he will act like a 12 year-old-girl? (an no offense intended if you or others are 12 year old girls) These guys get it.


People tend to do what's best for them. Lauri's not going to go out of his way to do the Bulls a favor (most players don't), but if it's in his best interest to agree to a sign and trade it'd be awfully petty not to do that just because it could benefit the Bulls.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#64 » by Tetlak » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:23 pm

Just took a look at every upcoming FA...this class is even lacking in 3 and d roleplayers.

This summer might be rough.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#65 » by HomoSapien » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:39 pm

It's a rough FA class. Of the "realistic" targets, TJ McConnell might actually be my top choice. Ibaka and Nerlens Noel could be an under-the-radar move if we lose Theis. Alec Burks could give us consistent scoring off the bench. Gary Trent is also unrestricted, so he's probably going to want to get a payday while he can. Not sure if he's the best fit for what he need though.

If you want to go gettable star, then DeMar DeRozan probably won't have a ton of suitors. Lowry's still playing at a high-level, but I'm not sure how many teams will be willing to give him a good payday.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#66 » by TheStig » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:53 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
sco wrote:
ZOMG wrote:If there ever was any goodwill that could have led to Lauri helping the team in the process of moving him to a new destination... I'd say it's all evaporated now with the way he's been embarrassed lately. We'll see if it blows up on AK's face.


ZOMG, c'mon do not respect your favorite player enough to think he will act like a 12 year-old-girl? (an no offense intended if you or others are 12 year old girls) These guys get it.


People tend to do what's best for them. Lauri's not going to go out of his way to do the Bulls a favor (most players don't), but if it's in his best interest to agree to a sign and trade it'd be awfully petty not to do that just because it could benefit the Bulls.

There are not a lot of teams out there that will give him a big deal with cap space. If the Mavs don't give him a big offer (they likely max collins first) a guy like Lauri is going to be dependent on a sign and trade.

Look in 99, there was no player with more ill will toward a team than Pip. Pip was moved in a sign and trade. It happens all the time if it makes sense for both parties.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#67 » by dougthonus » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:02 pm

ZOMG wrote:As for acting like a 12 year old girl... I don't see it like that. In the NBA, players hold grudges against teams / FO's all the time if they get f**ked over. And Lauri is definitely getting f**ked over. We'll see how he handles it.


f'd over?

Lauri may be salty because he got pushed to the bench, and he's free to feel about that situation however he likes, but he's been a pedestrian player of no special merit for 3.5 years. He wasn't f'd over even remotely. He's just a guy.

The only reason people would even possibly think he's better than that is because the Bulls spent so much time trying to prove that he was better than that before Lauri's repeated shortcomings (on a star standard, not a role player standard) proved that you can't turn a pedestrian player into a star by building your team round them.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#68 » by ZOMG » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:16 pm

dougthonus wrote:
ZOMG wrote:As for acting like a 12 year old girl... I don't see it like that. In the NBA, players hold grudges against teams / FO's all the time if they get f**ked over. And Lauri is definitely getting f**ked over. We'll see how he handles it.


f'd over?

Lauri may be salty because he got pushed to the bench, and he's free to feel about that situation however he likes, but he's been a pedestrian player of no special merit for 3.5 years. He wasn't f'd over even remotely. He's just a guy.

The only reason people would even possibly think he's better than that is because the Bulls spent so much time trying to prove that he was better than that before Lauri's repeated shortcomings (on a star standard, not a role player standard) proved that you can't turn a pedestrian player into a star by building your team round them.


Once again: I've always considered Lauri to be a flawed player. And I remain disappointed he hasn't used the offseasons to patch the holes in his game. I never saw him as a "face of the franchise" type anyway. Just a starting NBA scorer who has a knack for efficiency, making him valuable.

But the treatment he's getting now is still just mind-boggling. Are we trying to win or not? Why are Coby (34%), Theis (22%) and Troy Brown Jr (35%) taking 3pt shots in the bench unit when Lauri's shooting them at 39%? And so on.

People are trying their hardest to explain all this away and to make it seem like some logical conclusion to Lauri's Bulls career. They're making fools of themselves.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#69 » by dougthonus » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 pm

ZOMG wrote:Once again: I've always considered Lauri to be a flawed player. And I remain disappointed he hasn't used the offseasons to patch the holes in his game. I never saw him as a "face of the franchise" type anyway. Just a starting NBA scorer who has a knack for efficiency, making him valuable.


Lauri has been only above league average in efficiency by any meaningful amount in only this season, none of his others. So he hasn't had a knack for efficiency up until this year, when his role was lessened and they stopped trying to let him generate offense.

But the treatment he's getting now is still just mind-boggling. Are we trying to win or not? Why are Coby (34%), Theis (22%) and Troy Brown Jr (35%) taking 3pt shots in the bench unit when Lauri's shooting them at 39%? And so on.


The defense largely dictates which shooters get open shots for players that don't generate their own looks such as Lauri. Obviously they would prefer Theis or Brown shoot than Lauri, and since Lauri only shoots when left wide open and assisted, it isn't easy to ramp up those looks.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#70 » by CobyWhite0 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:45 am

dougthonus wrote:
ZOMG wrote:Once again: I've always considered Lauri to be a flawed player. And I remain disappointed he hasn't used the offseasons to patch the holes in his game. I never saw him as a "face of the franchise" type anyway. Just a starting NBA scorer who has a knack for efficiency, making him valuable.


Lauri has been only above league average in efficiency by any meaningful amount in only this season, none of his others. So he hasn't had a knack for efficiency up until this year, when his role was lessened and they stopped trying to let him generate offense.

But the treatment he's getting now is still just mind-boggling. Are we trying to win or not? Why are Coby (34%), Theis (22%) and Troy Brown Jr (35%) taking 3pt shots in the bench unit when Lauri's shooting them at 39%? And so on.


The defense largely dictates which shooters get open shots for players that don't generate their own looks such as Lauri. Obviously they would prefer Theis or Brown shoot than Lauri, and since Lauri only shoots when left wide open and assisted, it isn't easy to ramp up those looks.


Lauri had a very efficient first 15 games of the season - in the 18 games since then, he's a 33.7% 3pt shoooter with a .560 TS%. Below league average in both categories. As you mentioned, basically no different than the rest of his career.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#71 » by MrSparkle » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:49 pm

Biggest problem IMO with this squad is the lack of a speedy guard who can put it on the floor and draw fouls. We went from last place in FTAs to sinking even lower since the trade, as atleast the pace was up and Zach/Coby/Temple/Pat could draw falls on the break. As the pace has slowed, it's become apparent that outside Zach, there's nobody on this team who could actually penetrate and draw contact; and Zach hasn't even shown to be that effect in half-court (much prefers shooting off screen).

I'm not high on him, but Schroder might be the most realistic candidate. Won't cost any S&T assets like Lonzo, and $100/4 is probably going to be his market as we battle Thibs/NYK for a starting PG.

I thought Coby could be that guy. He's quick-footed, has deep shooting skill, theoretically can create enough space and dribble fast enough to drive at will... but he is simply terrible in the paint, let alone his proneness to losing the ball.

Lakers aren't going to want to lose a starter for nothing, and they'll take any rotation players and expirings for trade flexibility, if it comes to that. Perhaps a Sato/Aminu/Arci S&T could work, but more likely LAL would insist on Thad/Sato.

But let's say that happens. I'd follow up with a Lauri S&T offer to TOR for OG. They are going to want to resign Gary Trent, and Siakam isn't going anywhere (unless he is, in which case I get on that case). Plus they have Boucher, so they have a lanky forward glut with no C and mediocre spacing.

Schroder Coby
Lavine
Pat Troy
OG (Thad or Aminu)
Vucevic Theis (resign)

That would leave you with either Thad or Aminu on the books, and I would still get aggressive with either contract by bundling it with Coby for one more younger rotation player.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#72 » by Bandit King » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:02 pm

First give Lavine a big contract then free agency
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#73 » by MrSparkle » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:11 pm

Bandit King wrote:First give Lavine a big contract then free agency


Man I don't think I want to see that happen, unless AK is planning on acquiring all his FA targets via S&Ts (which is theoretically possible, with all the value-player expiring contracts we've got).
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#74 » by League Circles » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:59 am

I'm warming to the Schroder idea. I think he'd complement our starters better than Coby or Sato and is just a better player. We could def use his pesky defense.

My question is, I know we can be anywhere from way over the cap up to like 37 mil under it. So if we got Schroder, how much do we think he'd cost, and what way would be best to use what's left? Maaaybe there is room to sign Schroder and Lauri if we stretch waive most of the other non core guys? Maybe just keep Thad? Thoughts?
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#75 » by MrSparkle » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:25 pm

League Circles wrote:I'm warming to the Schroder idea. I think he'd complement our starters better than Coby or Sato and is just a better player. We could def use his pesky defense.

My question is, I know we can be anywhere from way over the cap up to like 37 mil under it. So if we got Schroder, how much do we think he'd cost, and what way would be best to use what's left? Maaaybe there is room to sign Schroder and Lauri if we stretch waive most of the other non core guys? Maybe just keep Thad? Thoughts?


I think the way to go would be offer a S&T for Thad/Sato. Both vets help the Lakers' rotation, or they can flip 'em. The benefit to Schroder is he can face-up in isolation and drive to the rim for a bucket; he can run a PnR; he can be a pest on defense; he's 27. I'm guess he'll be looking at $100/4 since he declined the 84m Lakers offer. The cons are: he's turnover prone, he's not a good 3P shooter, and he's not going to transform this club into a powerhouse. There will be an army out to get AKME for such a 'treadmill' move.

Lonzo is the flashier name. Less turnovers, the debate-able 3P% (I still have a hard time believing he's "fixed" it - his overall FG is still 42%), taller/better defense, more creative passes, arguably no ability to drive and finish in iso. I feel he'd be a gamble of an upgrade over Sato; obviously many signs point to his much better potential, but he's gonna be a guy relying on a 2-man game to make anything happen.

The Pelican I actually think would be the killer secondary pickup is Josh Hart. Reminds me of George Hill; still a good potential to be a late bloomer. Really athletic and he defensively harassed the Bulls in the last match-up.

I'm nearing the point of sending out Coby (and Sato) if it means getting back two new guards. I want to use Lauri to S&T for a defensive forward (OG an ideal target). Or whichever package gets things done. Aminu also doesn't seem to provide much outside outgoing salary, so if he could be the piece in a Schroder or Lonzo S&T, that'd be great.

But if Bulls could make the big FA moves via trades, then we have flexibility to fill the back-end of the roster with guys like Nwaba, who would help a lot more than Felicio and Arci. Maybe Winslow, Derrick Jones, Ennis, Sampson. Need to get bigger, more athletic and tougher on the wings.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#76 » by sco » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:16 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
League Circles wrote:I'm warming to the Schroder idea. I think he'd complement our starters better than Coby or Sato and is just a better player. We could def use his pesky defense.

My question is, I know we can be anywhere from way over the cap up to like 37 mil under it. So if we got Schroder, how much do we think he'd cost, and what way would be best to use what's left? Maaaybe there is room to sign Schroder and Lauri if we stretch waive most of the other non core guys? Maybe just keep Thad? Thoughts?


I think the way to go would be offer a S&T for Thad/Sato. Both vets help the Lakers' rotation, or they can flip 'em. The benefit to Schroder is he can face-up in isolation and drive to the rim for a bucket; he can run a PnR; he can be a pest on defense; he's 27. I'm guess he'll be looking at $100/4 since he declined the 84m Lakers offer. The cons are: he's turnover prone, he's not a good 3P shooter, and he's not going to transform this club into a powerhouse. There will be an army out to get AKME for such a 'treadmill' move.

Lonzo is the flashier name. Less turnovers, the debate-able 3P% (I still have a hard time believing he's "fixed" it - his overall FG is still 42%), taller/better defense, more creative passes, arguably no ability to drive and finish in iso. I feel he'd be a gamble of an upgrade over Sato; obviously many signs point to his much better potential, but he's gonna be a guy relying on a 2-man game to make anything happen.

The Pelican I actually think would be the killer secondary pickup is Josh Hart. Reminds me of George Hill; still a good potential to be a late bloomer. Really athletic and he defensively harassed the Bulls in the last match-up.

I'm nearing the point of sending out Coby (and Sato) if it means getting back two new guards. I want to use Lauri to S&T for a defensive forward (OG an ideal target). Or whichever package gets things done. Aminu also doesn't seem to provide much outside outgoing salary, so if he could be the piece in a Schroder or Lonzo S&T, that'd be great.

But if Bulls could make the big FA moves via trades, then we have flexibility to fill the back-end of the roster with guys like Nwaba, who would help a lot more than Felicio and Arci. Maybe Winslow, Derrick Jones, Ennis, Sampson. Need to get bigger, more athletic and tougher on the wings.

Great points!

I'm on board with sending out everyone not named Zach, Vuc, Pwill, Theis and Brown. Try to get Ball or Schroder using cap space. Then go after vet min/MLE/exemption useful guys like the ones you mentioned.
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Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#77 » by Little Nathan » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:22 am

The Laker to go after is clearly THT for me, definitely not Schröder. Schröder is a meh offensive player and a liability on defense. Don’t get the love he gets around here at all.

Schröder isn’t bad, he’s on that high-end backup/low-tier starter level IMO. Giving him anything around 20 mil is terrible and locks you into a very uninspiring core with little to no upside going forward.
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#78 » by MGB8 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:04 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Biggest problem IMO with this squad is the lack of a speedy guard who can put it on the floor and draw fouls. We went from last place in FTAs to sinking even lower since the trade, as atleast the pace was up and Zach/Coby/Temple/Pat could draw falls on the break. As the pace has slowed, it's become apparent that outside Zach, there's nobody on this team who could actually penetrate and draw contact; and Zach hasn't even shown to be that effect in half-court (much prefers shooting off screen).

I'm not high on him, but Schroder might be the most realistic candidate. Won't cost any S&T assets like Lonzo, and $100/4 is probably going to be his market as we battle Thibs/NYK for a starting PG.

I thought Coby could be that guy. He's quick-footed, has deep shooting skill, theoretically can create enough space and dribble fast enough to drive at will... but he is simply terrible in the paint, let alone his proneness to losing the ball.

Lakers aren't going to want to lose a starter for nothing, and they'll take any rotation players and expirings for trade flexibility, if it comes to that. Perhaps a Sato/Aminu/Arci S&T could work, but more likely LAL would insist on Thad/Sato.

But let's say that happens. I'd follow up with a Lauri S&T offer to TOR for OG. They are going to want to resign Gary Trent, and Siakam isn't going anywhere (unless he is, in which case I get on that case). Plus they have Boucher, so they have a lanky forward glut with no C and mediocre spacing.

Schroder Coby
Lavine
Pat Troy
OG (Thad or Aminu)
Vucevic Theis (resign)

That would leave you with either Thad or Aminu on the books, and I would still get aggressive with either contract by bundling it with Coby for one more younger rotation player.


Schroeder would be fine - he's a lower-tier starting PG. But I don't know if that's the issue so much.

What I see is two things:

(1) a lack of "downhill" players who have a lot of aggression - Schroeder sort of fits that bill but I'm thinking more of guys like Miles Bridges, Ja Morant, Norman Powell, RJ Barrett, Colin Sexton, Anthony Edwards, DeAndre Hunter, John Collins and Montrez Harrell (though really need it more from the wing), etc.

(2) a lack of a true lead distributor, even if that's not necessary in the offense that Billy wants to run, if only to push the Bulls players to play smarter.

Schroeder would add a bit of both, but he's not really a lead distributor himself. So would Reggie Jackson (also a FA). Justise Winslow is interesting to me because, IF HEALTHY, he'd address item #1 and give you at least another secondary distributor. Demarr Derozan, while old, probably does, too - but that lack of a 3....

The problem is that the Bulls don't actually have cap space next season. Prior to Lauri's cap hold (and any holds for Theis, Temple, Valentine, etc.), the Bulls only have about 13M in cap space (and that's for 9 players, so less with the holds for roster spots). If Archie is released, that open up 3M more (before roster spot hold). I'm assuming, however, that they want to retain Theis (a 9.5M hold)... so absent releasing Sato and Thad (which I think is unlikely)... probably no meaningful cap room.

The more that I think about it, though... if the Bulls really want to "win now" next season, the best add would be Derozan. And that *would* be doable... with a Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade. The money would work because San Antonio is so far under the cap. Not sure that San Antonio would have an interest in doing that, but they might for "agent favor" purposes.

With Derozan on board, you slide Pat to the 4 and start him there --- or really both are just combo forwards. With an aggressive offensive player like Derozan, Pat's relative passivitiy would be less of an issue.

New depth chart:

pg: Sato, Archi/Coby/Brown
sg: Lavine, Coby/Brown
sf: Derozan, Brown/Aminu
pf: Pat, Aminu/Thad/Theis
cc: Vucevic, Theis/Thad
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#79 » by Rose2Boozer » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:18 pm

It must be a sad state of affairs when a guy wants to sign away three Knicks.

1. Derrick Rose
2. Nerlens Noel
3. Alec Burks
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Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#80 » by sco » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Rose2Boozer wrote:It must be a sad state of affairs when a guy wants to sign away three Knicks.

1. Derrick Rose
2. Nerlens Noel
3. Alec Burks

Wow, we are totally in sync here...I thought I was alone in my shameful thoughts!

I'd add Bullock to that list too. Noel was higher on my list before we got Theis, who serves double-duty as both a starting PF and back-up C.
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