Image ImageImage Image

Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper

sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#81 » by sco » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:08 pm

Separately, assuming we whiff on a desirable PG. We need a (probably 2) cheap/vet min PG's. I never want Coby to given the PG keys again (no never - I mean it!).

It looks like a short list of possibles:
Payton
Teague
Ish
:clap:
Am2626
Starter
Posts: 2,330
And1: 733
Joined: Jul 13, 2013

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#82 » by Am2626 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:10 pm

MGB8 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Biggest problem IMO with this squad is the lack of a speedy guard who can put it on the floor and draw fouls. We went from last place in FTAs to sinking even lower since the trade, as atleast the pace was up and Zach/Coby/Temple/Pat could draw falls on the break. As the pace has slowed, it's become apparent that outside Zach, there's nobody on this team who could actually penetrate and draw contact; and Zach hasn't even shown to be that effect in half-court (much prefers shooting off screen).

I'm not high on him, but Schroder might be the most realistic candidate. Won't cost any S&T assets like Lonzo, and $100/4 is probably going to be his market as we battle Thibs/NYK for a starting PG.

I thought Coby could be that guy. He's quick-footed, has deep shooting skill, theoretically can create enough space and dribble fast enough to drive at will... but he is simply terrible in the paint, let alone his proneness to losing the ball.

Lakers aren't going to want to lose a starter for nothing, and they'll take any rotation players and expirings for trade flexibility, if it comes to that. Perhaps a Sato/Aminu/Arci S&T could work, but more likely LAL would insist on Thad/Sato.

But let's say that happens. I'd follow up with a Lauri S&T offer to TOR for OG. They are going to want to resign Gary Trent, and Siakam isn't going anywhere (unless he is, in which case I get on that case). Plus they have Boucher, so they have a lanky forward glut with no C and mediocre spacing.

Schroder Coby
Lavine
Pat Troy
OG (Thad or Aminu)
Vucevic Theis (resign)

That would leave you with either Thad or Aminu on the books, and I would still get aggressive with either contract by bundling it with Coby for one more younger rotation player.


Schroeder would be fine - he's a lower-tier starting PG. But I don't know if that's the issue so much.

What I see is two things:

(1) a lack of "downhill" players who have a lot of aggression - Schroeder sort of fits that bill but I'm thinking more of guys like Miles Bridges, Ja Morant, Norman Powell, RJ Barrett, Colin Sexton, Anthony Edwards, DeAndre Hunter, John Collins and Montrez Harrell (though really need it more from the wing), etc.

(2) a lack of a true lead distributor, even if that's not necessary in the offense that Billy wants to run, if only to push the Bulls players to play smarter.

Schroeder would add a bit of both, but he's not really a lead distributor himself. So would Reggie Jackson (also a FA). Justise Winslow is interesting to me because, IF HEALTHY, he'd address item #1 and give you at least another secondary distributor. Demarr Derozan, while old, probably does, too - but that lack of a 3....

The problem is that the Bulls don't actually have cap space next season. Prior to Lauri's cap hold (and any holds for Theis, Temple, Valentine, etc.), the Bulls only have about 13M in cap space (and that's for 9 players, so less with the holds for roster spots). If Archie is released, that open up 3M more (before roster spot hold). I'm assuming, however, that they want to retain Theis (a 9.5M hold)... so absent releasing Sato and Thad (which I think is unlikely)... probably no meaningful cap room.

The more that I think about it, though... if the Bulls really want to "win now" next season, the best add would be Derozan. And that *would* be doable... with a Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade. The money would work because San Antonio is so far under the cap. Not sure that San Antonio would have an interest in doing that, but they might for "agent favor" purposes.

With Derozan on board, you slide Pat to the 4 and start him there --- or really both are just combo forwards. With an aggressive offensive player like Derozan, Pat's relative passivitiy would be less of an issue.

New depth chart:

pg: Sato, Archi/Coby/Brown
sg: Lavine, Coby/Brown
sf: Derozan, Brown/Aminu
pf: Pat, Aminu/Thad/Theis
cc: Vucevic, Theis/Thad


Any of the guys with Cap holds can be renounced right? Guys that I see that are expendable on this Roster are Lauri, Temple, Sato, Archi, and Valentine. I like Theis and Thad so not including them on this list.

My FA targets would be Conley Jr., Lowry, Lonzo, Rose, Schroeder, and DeRosen. Kawhi is a pipe dream but if he pulls a Wade and suddenly asks to sign here you do anything and everything to get him. That includes moving one of Vuc or Zach but don’t see why Kawhi would want to play on a team that doesn’t include them both.

So for all intensive purposes everyone on this team except for Zach and Vuc are expendable whether it is via trade or included in a sign and trade deal or just renouncing their rights to sign another better player. I also would keep the top 4 pick if the Bulls are lucky enough to land it. So top 4 pick, Zac, and Vuc are the only untouchable pieces right now.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 17,504
And1: 6,690
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#83 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:20 pm

Am2626 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Biggest problem IMO with this squad is the lack of a speedy guard who can put it on the floor and draw fouls. We went from last place in FTAs to sinking even lower since the trade, as atleast the pace was up and Zach/Coby/Temple/Pat could draw falls on the break. As the pace has slowed, it's become apparent that outside Zach, there's nobody on this team who could actually penetrate and draw contact; and Zach hasn't even shown to be that effect in half-court (much prefers shooting off screen).

I'm not high on him, but Schroder might be the most realistic candidate. Won't cost any S&T assets like Lonzo, and $100/4 is probably going to be his market as we battle Thibs/NYK for a starting PG.

I thought Coby could be that guy. He's quick-footed, has deep shooting skill, theoretically can create enough space and dribble fast enough to drive at will... but he is simply terrible in the paint, let alone his proneness to losing the ball.

Lakers aren't going to want to lose a starter for nothing, and they'll take any rotation players and expirings for trade flexibility, if it comes to that. Perhaps a Sato/Aminu/Arci S&T could work, but more likely LAL would insist on Thad/Sato.

But let's say that happens. I'd follow up with a Lauri S&T offer to TOR for OG. They are going to want to resign Gary Trent, and Siakam isn't going anywhere (unless he is, in which case I get on that case). Plus they have Boucher, so they have a lanky forward glut with no C and mediocre spacing.

Schroder Coby
Lavine
Pat Troy
OG (Thad or Aminu)
Vucevic Theis (resign)

That would leave you with either Thad or Aminu on the books, and I would still get aggressive with either contract by bundling it with Coby for one more younger rotation player.


Schroeder would be fine - he's a lower-tier starting PG. But I don't know if that's the issue so much.

What I see is two things:

(1) a lack of "downhill" players who have a lot of aggression - Schroeder sort of fits that bill but I'm thinking more of guys like Miles Bridges, Ja Morant, Norman Powell, RJ Barrett, Colin Sexton, Anthony Edwards, DeAndre Hunter, John Collins and Montrez Harrell (though really need it more from the wing), etc.

(2) a lack of a true lead distributor, even if that's not necessary in the offense that Billy wants to run, if only to push the Bulls players to play smarter.

Schroeder would add a bit of both, but he's not really a lead distributor himself. So would Reggie Jackson (also a FA). Justise Winslow is interesting to me because, IF HEALTHY, he'd address item #1 and give you at least another secondary distributor. Demarr Derozan, while old, probably does, too - but that lack of a 3....

The problem is that the Bulls don't actually have cap space next season. Prior to Lauri's cap hold (and any holds for Theis, Temple, Valentine, etc.), the Bulls only have about 13M in cap space (and that's for 9 players, so less with the holds for roster spots). If Archie is released, that open up 3M more (before roster spot hold). I'm assuming, however, that they want to retain Theis (a 9.5M hold)... so absent releasing Sato and Thad (which I think is unlikely)... probably no meaningful cap room.

The more that I think about it, though... if the Bulls really want to "win now" next season, the best add would be Derozan. And that *would* be doable... with a Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade. The money would work because San Antonio is so far under the cap. Not sure that San Antonio would have an interest in doing that, but they might for "agent favor" purposes.

With Derozan on board, you slide Pat to the 4 and start him there --- or really both are just combo forwards. With an aggressive offensive player like Derozan, Pat's relative passivitiy would be less of an issue.

New depth chart:

pg: Sato, Archi/Coby/Brown
sg: Lavine, Coby/Brown
sf: Derozan, Brown/Aminu
pf: Pat, Aminu/Thad/Theis
cc: Vucevic, Theis/Thad


Any of the guys with Cap holds can be renounced right? Guys that I see that are expendable on this Roster are Lauri, Temple, Sato, Archi, and Valentine. I like Theis and Thad so not including them on this list.

My FA targets would be Conley Jr., Lowry, Lonzo, Rose, Schroeder, and DeRosen. Kawhi is a pipe dream but if he pulls a Wade and suddenly asks to sign here you do anything and everything to get him. That includes moving one of Vuc or Zach but don’t see why Kawhi would want to play on a team that doesn’t include them both.

So for all intensive purposes everyone on this team except for Zach and Vuc are expendable whether it is via trade or included in a sign and trade deal or just renouncing their rights to sign another better player. I also would keep the top 4 pick if the Bulls are lucky enough to land it. So top 4 pick, Zac, and Vuc are the only untouchable pieces right now.


No Pat? IMO he needs time. Most guys in his archetype took exponential jumps from mediocre rookie seasons: Hunter, Isaac, Mikal. Jerami Grant, Barnes, Ingram and Marvin also improved much over the years, compared to their rookie selves. As did Jaylen Brown.

I think an athletic tweener forward needs a lot of development. Their potential is limitless, but they basically learn how to defend 5 positions, handle the ball in good volume, and score buckets against every type of defender. We've seen he's capable of facing up and scoring the mid-range jumper, slashing, and spotting up. Pat has a bigger tool box than a lot of the previously mentioned guys.

I'm not giving Pat away unless we get a legitimate perennial all-star back (not the Zach/Vuc type).
User avatar
Little Nathan
Head Coach
Posts: 7,213
And1: 4,589
Joined: Mar 11, 2013
Location: Germany
   

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#84 » by Little Nathan » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:22 pm

sco wrote:It looks like a short list of possibles:
Payton
Teague
Ish


That's the saddest 3-man-list I've ever seen.
"Heart is a skill that players who shoot 3s might not have." - Chris Webber, actually getting paid for this
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 17,504
And1: 6,690
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#85 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:26 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
sco wrote:It looks like a short list of possibles:
Payton
Teague
Ish


That's the saddest 3-man-list I've ever seen.


Lol - I'm not sure if Sco's idea was to tank harder.

If AKME come back with anything resembling that rotation, I officially take a Bulls break. :lol:
Am2626
Starter
Posts: 2,330
And1: 733
Joined: Jul 13, 2013

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#86 » by Am2626 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:30 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Schroeder would be fine - he's a lower-tier starting PG. But I don't know if that's the issue so much.

What I see is two things:

(1) a lack of "downhill" players who have a lot of aggression - Schroeder sort of fits that bill but I'm thinking more of guys like Miles Bridges, Ja Morant, Norman Powell, RJ Barrett, Colin Sexton, Anthony Edwards, DeAndre Hunter, John Collins and Montrez Harrell (though really need it more from the wing), etc.

(2) a lack of a true lead distributor, even if that's not necessary in the offense that Billy wants to run, if only to push the Bulls players to play smarter.

Schroeder would add a bit of both, but he's not really a lead distributor himself. So would Reggie Jackson (also a FA). Justise Winslow is interesting to me because, IF HEALTHY, he'd address item #1 and give you at least another secondary distributor. Demarr Derozan, while old, probably does, too - but that lack of a 3....

The problem is that the Bulls don't actually have cap space next season. Prior to Lauri's cap hold (and any holds for Theis, Temple, Valentine, etc.), the Bulls only have about 13M in cap space (and that's for 9 players, so less with the holds for roster spots). If Archie is released, that open up 3M more (before roster spot hold). I'm assuming, however, that they want to retain Theis (a 9.5M hold)... so absent releasing Sato and Thad (which I think is unlikely)... probably no meaningful cap room.

The more that I think about it, though... if the Bulls really want to "win now" next season, the best add would be Derozan. And that *would* be doable... with a Lauri for Derozan dual sign and trade. The money would work because San Antonio is so far under the cap. Not sure that San Antonio would have an interest in doing that, but they might for "agent favor" purposes.

With Derozan on board, you slide Pat to the 4 and start him there --- or really both are just combo forwards. With an aggressive offensive player like Derozan, Pat's relative passivitiy would be less of an issue.

New depth chart:

pg: Sato, Archi/Coby/Brown
sg: Lavine, Coby/Brown
sf: Derozan, Brown/Aminu
pf: Pat, Aminu/Thad/Theis
cc: Vucevic, Theis/Thad


Any of the guys with Cap holds can be renounced right? Guys that I see that are expendable on this Roster are Lauri, Temple, Sato, Archi, and Valentine. I like Theis and Thad so not including them on this list.

My FA targets would be Conley Jr., Lowry, Lonzo, Rose, Schroeder, and DeRosen. Kawhi is a pipe dream but if he pulls a Wade and suddenly asks to sign here you do anything and everything to get him. That includes moving one of Vuc or Zach but don’t see why Kawhi would want to play on a team that doesn’t include them both.

So for all intensive purposes everyone on this team except for Zach and Vuc are expendable whether it is via trade or included in a sign and trade deal or just renouncing their rights to sign another better player. I also would keep the top 4 pick if the Bulls are lucky enough to land it. So top 4 pick, Zac, and Vuc are the only untouchable pieces right now.


No Pat? IMO he needs time. Most guys in his archetype took exponential jumps from mediocre rookie seasons: Hunter, Isaac, Mikal. Jerami Grant, Barnes, Ingram and Marvin also improved much over the years, compared to their rookie selves. As did Jaylen Brown.

I think an athletic tweener forward needs a lot of development. Their potential is limitless, but they basically learn how to defend 5 positions, handle the ball in good volume, and score buckets against every type of defender. We've seen he's capable of facing up and scoring the mid-range jumper, slashing, and spotting up. Pat has a bigger tool box than a lot of the previously mentioned guys.

I'm not giving Pat away unless we get a legitimate perennial all-star back (not the Zach/Vuc type).


Yeah it’s probably too soon to move on from Pat but I don’t like including him in an untouchable category. He has recently been underwhelming but he needs more evaluation. It’s very unlikely AK will look at moving him this soon anyways.
Rose2Boozer
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,509
And1: 391
Joined: Apr 07, 2011

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#87 » by Rose2Boozer » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:37 pm

sco wrote:
Rose2Boozer wrote:It must be a sad state of affairs when a guy wants to sign away three Knicks.

1. Derrick Rose
2. Nerlens Noel
3. Alec Burks

Wow, we are totally in sync here...I thought I was alone in my shameful thoughts!

I'd add Bullock to that list too. Noel was higher on my list before we got Theis, who serves double-duty as both a starting PF and back-up C.


I think Theis will try his best to cash out. I don't think the Bulls should be looking to invest that much money in the center position. As far as Bullock, the Knicks can keep him.

The Bulls would hopefully try to get some good public relations by bringing back Rose. He can still create his own offense, and should be better than Satoransky. AK should let Sato walk.
ROLES & HOLES
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#88 » by sco » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:40 pm

Rose2Boozer wrote:
sco wrote:
Rose2Boozer wrote:It must be a sad state of affairs when a guy wants to sign away three Knicks.

1. Derrick Rose
2. Nerlens Noel
3. Alec Burks

Wow, we are totally in sync here...I thought I was alone in my shameful thoughts!

I'd add Bullock to that list too. Noel was higher on my list before we got Theis, who serves double-duty as both a starting PF and back-up C.


I think Theis will try his best to cash out. I don't think the Bulls should be looking to invest that much money in the center position. As far as Bullock, the Knicks can keep him.

The Bulls would hopefully try to get some good public relations by bringing back Rose. He can still create his own offense, and should be better than Satoransky. AK should let Sato walk.

I wonder how much Rose will get?
:clap:
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#89 » by sco » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:48 pm

I need some help understanding our situation if we let all of our FA's walk. I was trying to use http://www.shamsports.com/capulator
but it still seemed like we have no cap space if we do that - is that right?

If so, we're allowed to go over the cap to sign our FA's, but not anyone else's, right? So we can spend what we need to, to sign Theis and Lauri (for example), but we couldn't take that same say $25M (if we didn't resign those guys) and sign Ball.
:clap:
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#90 » by MGB8 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:54 pm

sco wrote:
Rose2Boozer wrote:
sco wrote:Wow, we are totally in sync here...I thought I was alone in my shameful thoughts!

I'd add Bullock to that list too. Noel was higher on my list before we got Theis, who serves double-duty as both a starting PF and back-up C.


I think Theis will try his best to cash out. I don't think the Bulls should be looking to invest that much money in the center position. As far as Bullock, the Knicks can keep him.

The Bulls would hopefully try to get some good public relations by bringing back Rose. He can still create his own offense, and should be better than Satoransky. AK should let Sato walk.

I wonder how much Rose will get?


I don't think the Bulls are in a spot to sign Rose, honestly. Rose fits best on either a "learning" young time, like the Knicks this season, or a contender. The Bulls will be right in between.

Meanwhile, from what AK is saying, they are going to make a decent effort to bring Theis back, so I could see him getting up to MLE type money (without using the MLE on him).

I have no idea if Thad or Sato are let go / traded --- they are "AK type" players but highly replaceable / upgradeable.

I could see Aminu being stretch-waived... but then again, Felicio is still on the roster, so I tend to think that they'll avoid doing that if it doesn't save the Bulls any money.

Frankly, I expect the Bulls to operate as an over-the-cap team, and pull one or several trades (including very possibly a sign and trade with Lauri) and possibly use the MLE (if allowed in conjunction with the other moves).
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 52,894
And1: 23,923
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#91 » by coldfish » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:59 pm

I wonder if the Bulls could sign and trade Coby for Ball to help with salary requirements and give NOP an asset.
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#92 » by MGB8 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:08 pm

sco wrote:I need some help understanding our situation if we let all of our FA's walk. I was trying to use http://www.shamsports.com/capulator
but it still seemed like we have no cap space if we do that - is that right?

If so, we're allowed to go over the cap to sign our FA's, but not anyone else's, right? So we can spend what we need to, to sign Theis and Lauri (for example), but we couldn't take that same say $25M (if we didn't resign those guys) and sign Ball.


If the Bulls let all FA walk, there isn't a lot of cap space left - the Bulls are at 99.3M in salaries + another 2.75M in roster spot holds plus many many million more in cap holds (16.8M for Lauri, 9.5M for Theis).

So you'd need to do more than just let FA walk. You'd need renounce everyone first. Then you'd waive Archi (which only opens up 2.1M given a 0.9M roster spot cap hold), waive and stretch Aminu (opens up 6.6 - 0.9M for next season - 5.7M), and waive and stretch Thad and Sato (Thad opens 12.2 - 0.9 = 11.3M, Sato opens 8.4 - 0.9 = 7.5M).

If you did all that, you could open up 26.6M more on top of the 10M or so the Bulls are under the projected cap - and have room for one MAX deal. (Or maybe a little more for a "junior max" [6 years NBA experience or less] and then another player). The 7-9 year MAX is 33.7 next season (projected). The 10+ year max is 39.3 -- I don't think the Bulls can actually make that much room without engaging in trades or waive stretching Troy Brown....
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#93 » by MGB8 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:12 pm

coldfish wrote:I wonder if the Bulls could sign and trade Coby for Ball to help with salary requirements and give NOP an asset.


I'm not sure if that makes sense. Mostly because right now Coby's value is low and Ball's is high - so it's literally the worst time to make that kind of trade.

But last night, while I didn't watch the game, reports are that Coby looked good --- in particular on defense.

That's the key for him, IMO. He's a combo guard, who's reasonably far away from being a starting level point guard in terms of handle and distribution skills - but if he can defend at a decent level, then he can be a contributor. I can't see why he can't at least be a player in the mold of Dovonte Graham --- if he can play aggressively. And he's shown flashes of playing aggressively; it just seems like this season he's questioning anything (maybe an after affect of a lost season under Boylen).
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 52,894
And1: 23,923
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#94 » by coldfish » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:15 pm

MGB8 wrote:
coldfish wrote:I wonder if the Bulls could sign and trade Coby for Ball to help with salary requirements and give NOP an asset.


I'm not sure if that makes sense. Mostly because right now Coby's value is low and Ball's is high - so it's literally the worst time to make that kind of trade.

But last night, while I didn't watch the game, reports are that Coby looked good --- in particular on defense.

That's the key for him, IMO. He's a combo guard, who's reasonably far away from being a starting level point guard in terms of handle and distribution skills - but if he can defend at a decent level, then he can be a contributor. I can't see why he can't at least be a player in the mold of Dovonte Graham --- if he can play aggressively. And he's shown flashes of playing aggressively; it just seems like this season he's questioning anything (maybe an after affect of a lost season under Boylen).


If NOP has the choice between losing Ball to NY for nothing or Ball to Chicago for Coby, which do you think they would pick?
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 16,270
And1: 2,018
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#95 » by MGB8 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:23 pm

coldfish wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
coldfish wrote:I wonder if the Bulls could sign and trade Coby for Ball to help with salary requirements and give NOP an asset.


I'm not sure if that makes sense. Mostly because right now Coby's value is low and Ball's is high - so it's literally the worst time to make that kind of trade.

But last night, while I didn't watch the game, reports are that Coby looked good --- in particular on defense.

That's the key for him, IMO. He's a combo guard, who's reasonably far away from being a starting level point guard in terms of handle and distribution skills - but if he can defend at a decent level, then he can be a contributor. I can't see why he can't at least be a player in the mold of Dovonte Graham --- if he can play aggressively. And he's shown flashes of playing aggressively; it just seems like this season he's questioning anything (maybe an after affect of a lost season under Boylen).


If NOP has the choice between losing Ball to NY for nothing or Ball to Chicago for Coby, which do you think they would pick?


Sure. I think that I misread your post, and thought that you were proposing attaching an asset to Coby in return for Ball - not just Ball for Coby. Ball for Coby I'd be down for --- notwithstanding some concerns regarding trading low on Coby.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#96 » by sco » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:37 pm

coldfish wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
coldfish wrote:I wonder if the Bulls could sign and trade Coby for Ball to help with salary requirements and give NOP an asset.


I'm not sure if that makes sense. Mostly because right now Coby's value is low and Ball's is high - so it's literally the worst time to make that kind of trade.

But last night, while I didn't watch the game, reports are that Coby looked good --- in particular on defense.

That's the key for him, IMO. He's a combo guard, who's reasonably far away from being a starting level point guard in terms of handle and distribution skills - but if he can defend at a decent level, then he can be a contributor. I can't see why he can't at least be a player in the mold of Dovonte Graham --- if he can play aggressively. And he's shown flashes of playing aggressively; it just seems like this season he's questioning anything (maybe an after affect of a lost season under Boylen).


If NOP has the choice between losing Ball to NY for nothing or Ball to Chicago for Coby, which do you think they would pick?

Assuming Ball is ambivalent, if NY offers more $, wouldn't Ball just go there or does a S&T allow us to do an extra year or something?
:clap:
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#97 » by sco » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:43 pm

MGB8 wrote:
sco wrote:I need some help understanding our situation if we let all of our FA's walk. I was trying to use http://www.shamsports.com/capulator
but it still seemed like we have no cap space if we do that - is that right?

If so, we're allowed to go over the cap to sign our FA's, but not anyone else's, right? So we can spend what we need to, to sign Theis and Lauri (for example), but we couldn't take that same say $25M (if we didn't resign those guys) and sign Ball.


If the Bulls let all FA walk, there isn't a lot of cap space left - the Bulls are at 99.3M in salaries + another 2.75M in roster spot holds plus many many million more in cap holds (16.8M for Lauri, 9.5M for Theis).

So you'd need to do more than just let FA walk. You'd need renounce everyone first. Then you'd waive Archi (which only opens up 2.1M given a 0.9M roster spot cap hold), waive and stretch Aminu (opens up 6.6 - 0.9M for next season - 5.7M), and waive and stretch Thad and Sato (Thad opens 12.2 - 0.9 = 11.3M, Sato opens 8.4 - 0.9 = 7.5M).

If you did all that, you could open up 26.6M more on top of the 10M or so the Bulls are under the projected cap - and have room for one MAX deal. (Or maybe a little more for a "junior max" [6 years NBA experience or less] and then another player). The 7-9 year MAX is 33.7 next season (projected). The 10+ year max is 39.3 -- I don't think the Bulls can actually make that much room without engaging in trades or waive stretching Troy Brown....

It gets a bit circular too. I can't see them doing all of that unless we had Ball locked-up. Also, is it possible to resign Theis, while S&T'ing for Ball?
:clap:
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 52,894
And1: 23,923
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#98 » by coldfish » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:51 pm

sco wrote:
coldfish wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
I'm not sure if that makes sense. Mostly because right now Coby's value is low and Ball's is high - so it's literally the worst time to make that kind of trade.

But last night, while I didn't watch the game, reports are that Coby looked good --- in particular on defense.

That's the key for him, IMO. He's a combo guard, who's reasonably far away from being a starting level point guard in terms of handle and distribution skills - but if he can defend at a decent level, then he can be a contributor. I can't see why he can't at least be a player in the mold of Dovonte Graham --- if he can play aggressively. And he's shown flashes of playing aggressively; it just seems like this season he's questioning anything (maybe an after affect of a lost season under Boylen).


If NOP has the choice between losing Ball to NY for nothing or Ball to Chicago for Coby, which do you think they would pick?

Assuming Ball is ambivalent, if NY offers more $, wouldn't Ball just go there or does a S&T allow us to do an extra year or something?


Yes, the Bulls would have to outbid everyone and convince Ball to join. Sending out Coby just make it work more easily cap wise. The Bulls still might have to cut Sato or Thad to make it work.

Another option would be Coby + Aminu for Ball. Not sure NOP would go for that at all.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 16,885
And1: 4,736
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#99 » by sco » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:00 pm

coldfish wrote:
sco wrote:
coldfish wrote:
If NOP has the choice between losing Ball to NY for nothing or Ball to Chicago for Coby, which do you think they would pick?

Assuming Ball is ambivalent, if NY offers more $, wouldn't Ball just go there or does a S&T allow us to do an extra year or something?


Yes, the Bulls would have to outbid everyone and convince Ball to join. Sending out Coby just make it work more easily cap wise. The Bulls still might have to cut Sato or Thad to make it work.

Another option would be Coby + Aminu for Ball. Not sure NOP would go for that at all.

Yeah, I think the Ball dream died at the deadline. I'm starting to think we should just keep Theis, Thad, and Sato. I'd rather have those 3, than none of them (sounds like all or nothing math) and have Ball. I'd be willing to waive Thad and Sato (although we might be able to trade them for non-guaranteed deals) if we could have Theis and Ball. I'm really like Theis as our PF next to Vuc and be our backup C, and I think a guy who can guard the opponents better PF/C and also defend away from the rim is very hard to find (especially for $10M or less).

I wonder how much Payton could be had for. He's actually been good for NY and might be signable for MLE $. If not him, maybe Rose.

That would have us going into next season with:

PG (MLE), Sato
Zach, Coby (in a catch-and-shoot mode only)
PWill, Brown
Theis, Aminu/Thad
Vuc, Thad/Theis

We'll be reliant on improvements from PWill and Coby for our team success. I think we should be able to add a couple decent rotation players on vet min deals or keep Temple (who I think is a great vet). I think folks undervalue Aminu, who has been a solid vet, but dealing with injuries the past couple of seasons and buried on our bench behind our PF glut. There's a chance we might be able to add another decent player at the deadline if we package Coby and Aminu (who is expiring).
:clap:
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 17,504
And1: 6,690
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Cap Space+Realistic Targets this Summer 

Post#100 » by MrSparkle » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:50 pm

With Vuc here, I don’t think this team can go into another year expecting a committee of Zach, Coby, Sato and Thad to deliver him the ball. I don’t think a MLE point will cut it.

I didn’t see Coby playing much better (last night) than any of his better games in the first half of the season. I saw Temple out there controlling pace and making simple, good entry passes.

They need to a good conventional PG. And it’s obviously a tricky crop to select from. AKME need to nail their pickup. Lonzo and Schroder are the obvious names; there will be movement elsewhere on the market. We have no idea what happens in the post-season; 1st/2nd round disappointments (14 teams are gonna be fishing, plus the play-ins) are going to probably shuffle their decks.

Return to Chicago Bulls