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Who is the next target?

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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#161 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:16 am

coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:I would not be surprised if the offseason results are that Lauri walks for nothing, Zach gets a raise and an extension, some of the vets who play well get retained and the roster is filled out with value vet contracts.

As much as I want to find a gem in free agency, I just don’t see one out there. The FA class is horrific and lots of teams have money.

Right now, that plan looks like an awful decision. We can talk in 15 games or so and see then.


There is absolutely zero chance that Zach gets a raise and extension. Do you know how many times that has happened in NBA history? It doesn't happen.


It’s a pretty unique situation. You have to have an all star level player who is paid significantly less than the max and soon to be an unrestricted free agent and the team needs a significant amount of cap space.


I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#162 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:17 am

We giving up on signing Ball? I doubt that.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#163 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:18 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
There is absolutely zero chance that Zach gets a raise and extension. Do you know how many times that has happened in NBA history? It doesn't happen.


It’s a pretty unique situation. You have to have an all star level player who is paid significantly less than the max and soon to be an unrestricted free agent and the team needs a significant amount of cap space.


I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


Yeah that would be a terrible use of cap space.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#164 » by coldfish » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:44 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
There is absolutely zero chance that Zach gets a raise and extension. Do you know how many times that has happened in NBA history? It doesn't happen.


It’s a pretty unique situation. You have to have an all star level player who is paid significantly less than the max and soon to be an unrestricted free agent and the team needs a significant amount of cap space.


I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


I believe its 12m. Regardless, can you give me an example of a player in zach’s position?

The Bulls basically put all their chips on the table in trying to build around Zach and Vuc. If Zach leaves, the vuc trade will be a horrid mistake. Given how terrible the fa market is, don’t bet against it.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#165 » by coldfish » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:47 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
It’s a pretty unique situation. You have to have an all star level player who is paid significantly less than the max and soon to be an unrestricted free agent and the team needs a significant amount of cap space.


I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


Yeah that would be a terrible use of cap space.


As opposed to giving Demar Derozan $30m per year and watching Zach walk in 2022?
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#166 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:50 am

coldfish wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


Yeah that would be a terrible use of cap space.


As opposed to giving Demar Derozan $30m per year and watching Zach walk in 2022?


Give Ball $20 million and resign Zach in 2022. We do not have enough talent to make our major move just a new contract for a player we already have. That’s a no balls move that doesn’t jive with what we just did.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#167 » by Grodoboldo » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:54 am

Man, I think this board is gonna go nuts if we decide to remain over the cap this offseason (which is what I believe will happen).
Ok, Zach is pretty awesome, we should use capspace to give him a full max next off-season.
We should still trade Lauri, Otto, Young and Sato for the best we can get.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#168 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:59 am

coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
It’s a pretty unique situation. You have to have an all star level player who is paid significantly less than the max and soon to be an unrestricted free agent and the team needs a significant amount of cap space.


I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


I believe its 12m. Regardless, can you give me an example of a player in zach’s position?

The Bulls basically put all their chips on the table in trying to build around Zach and Vuc. If Zach leaves, the vuc trade will be a horrid mistake. Given how terrible the fa market is, don’t bet against it.


It's $14.2242 million - Zach is due $19.5 million, his max for next season is $33,724,200. So it's actually $14,224,200.

I could find 10 guys easy who have been in Zach's position, you just don't ever hear about them because it's ridiculous to waste that kind of cap space to sign a guy a year early. Especially when you can pay that guy a buttload more money next summer than any other team.

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you and Doug - you think it's possible, I'm saying it 100% certain that we won't be renegotiating Zach's deal this summer. I'll gladly drop it until we see what a joke it turns out to be this summer.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#169 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 3:08 am

coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
It’s a pretty unique situation. You have to have an all star level player who is paid significantly less than the max and soon to be an unrestricted free agent and the team needs a significant amount of cap space.


I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


I believe its 12m. Regardless, can you give me an example of a player in zach’s position?

The Bulls basically put all their chips on the table in trying to build around Zach and Vuc. If Zach leaves, the vuc trade will be a horrid mistake. Given how terrible the fa market is, don’t bet against it.


Lots of players have been in Zach's position, but their teams don't waste cap space paying him a year early.

Do you really think Zach is going to turn down 5 years, $210,467,640 so he can sign elsewhere for 4 years, $149,363,940?
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#170 » by coldfish » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:33 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
I am aware, but can you name one example of a player in Zach's position getting a renegotiation? It would be stupid, it would take something like $17 million in cap space to get Zach to the max this summer, and the team would be much better off spending that $17 million on a free agent.

It's not going to happen, no way, no how. But folks are more than welcome to dream if they want.


I believe its 12m. Regardless, can you give me an example of a player in zach’s position?

The Bulls basically put all their chips on the table in trying to build around Zach and Vuc. If Zach leaves, the vuc trade will be a horrid mistake. Given how terrible the fa market is, don’t bet against it.


It's $14.2242 million - Zach is due $19.5 million, his max for next season is $33,724,200. So it's actually $14,224,200.

I could find 10 guys easy who have been in Zach's position, you just don't ever hear about them because it's ridiculous to waste that kind of cap space to sign a guy a year early. Especially when you can pay that guy a buttload more money next summer than any other team.

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you and Doug - you think it's possible, I'm saying it 100% certain that we won't be renegotiating Zach's deal this summer. I'll gladly drop it until we see what a joke it turns out to be this summer.


Quite frankly, I hope you are right. It would lead to a better team.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#171 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:12 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:I'm just going to agree to disagree with you and Doug - you think it's possible, I'm saying it 100% certain that we won't be renegotiating Zach's deal this summer. I'll gladly drop it until we see what a joke it turns out to be this summer.


I think it is likely we won't negotiate with Zach because there is a good chance we will remain over the cap. If do end up under the cap, then I think renegotiating with Zach is a better option than other options most likely because of the weak FA class and the closure of one of the big risks to the team.

I think they're probably better off doing a S&T with Lauri, keeping a trade exception for the deadline (or some other time) and then seeing what they can do. The cost of letting Sato and/or Thad go to get cap room and not getting a trade exception is pretty high.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#172 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Apr 5, 2021 2:19 pm

Renegotiating Lavine is some GarPax level coward ****. Stop trying to raise the basement.

We need to raise the ceiling.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#173 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 5, 2021 3:43 pm

coldfish wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
I believe its 12m. Regardless, can you give me an example of a player in zach’s position?

The Bulls basically put all their chips on the table in trying to build around Zach and Vuc. If Zach leaves, the vuc trade will be a horrid mistake. Given how terrible the fa market is, don’t bet against it.


It's $14.2242 million - Zach is due $19.5 million, his max for next season is $33,724,200. So it's actually $14,224,200.

I could find 10 guys easy who have been in Zach's position, you just don't ever hear about them because it's ridiculous to waste that kind of cap space to sign a guy a year early. Especially when you can pay that guy a buttload more money next summer than any other team.

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you and Doug - you think it's possible, I'm saying it 100% certain that we won't be renegotiating Zach's deal this summer. I'll gladly drop it until we see what a joke it turns out to be this summer.


Quite frankly, I hope you are right. It would lead to a better team.


Correct me if I'm wrong (might be way off), but this would basically be the move to do if Bulls went all in on re-signing all expiring guys with bird or RFA rights (Theis, Lauri, Temple) and then using the MLE to add the last piece? As in, there would be no major FA addition, besides the MLE - basically retaining everybody expiring, with salary raises?

The roster construction seems crazy, but there are still many tradeable pieces. I feel like resigning Theis would be a good roster move. But obviously there are some better needs to address with FA.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#174 » by TeamMan » Mon Apr 5, 2021 3:53 pm

After the Nets game I saw an interview with Vuc and he said that the Bulls have a different system and he's taking time to adjust.

That brings us back again to Donovan's system.

I've repeatedly posted (in different threads) that IMO the part of the season before the trade deadline was about the FO evaluating which players were going to fit into BD's system.

With that evaluation completed, AK shipped out the players that didn't fit and brought in the best players that he could get that do fit.

So, in terms of players (and also IMO), the team has already been optimized as much as possible this season.

Next comes BD fitting all of the pieces together to get a winning result.

Watching the games since the trades, what I believe I've been seeing is the implementation of position-less basketball. BD has a team of players that can play multiple positions and the key to making it work is keeping the ball moving.

The most important thing has been cutting down on the TOs. And again IMO, it's the main thing that has kept BD's system from working the way that he wants.

So, the rest of the season will bring the 2nd phase of the FO evaluation, and we can watch and see if we can predict which players are falling out of consideration.

But personally, I've seen positive flashes from all of the players that, they can fit into BD's system, and make it work.

Therefore, the questions are, what players can BD get that will make it work better? And outside of Lauri who are the players that he's willing to send out?

The rest of the season will be very interesting.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#175 » by sco » Mon Apr 5, 2021 4:09 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Renegotiating Lavine is some GarPax level coward ****. Stop trying to raise the basement.

We need to raise the ceiling.

Why - explain?
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#176 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Apr 5, 2021 4:12 pm

sco wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Renegotiating Lavine is some GarPax level coward ****. Stop trying to raise the basement.

We need to raise the ceiling.

Why - explain?

The one undeniably good thing about the Vuc trade is Vuc's contract.

We have two fringe all star level talents locked in for like $45 million next year. That's our cue to go for a 3rd star. Not to spend all of our cap to retain one of the fringe all-star talents.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#177 » by sco » Mon Apr 5, 2021 4:16 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
sco wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Renegotiating Lavine is some GarPax level coward ****. Stop trying to raise the basement.

We need to raise the ceiling.

Why - explain?

The one undeniably good thing about the Vuc trade is Vuc's contract.

We have two fringe all star level talents locked in for like $45 million next year. That's our cue to go for a 3rd star. Not to spend all of our cap to retain one of the fringe all-star talents.

Thanks...I was under the impression that renegotiating now with Zach would cost less than it will in a year because his max would be lower, but I'm with you, we need to spend $ on 3rd guy asap.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#178 » by Patoranking » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:46 am

If we can't land a star, under the radar target -- Norman Powell. Among the top 3pt shooters the past 2 years, athletic slasher who gets to the rim and draws fouls. Defends very well both man-to-man and team defense (from all the great coaching in Toronto). He can play the 3 with his 6'11" wingspan.

Really good secondary scorer and I think he'd be an excellent fit as a 3rd option and a starting 3 for us. With the spacing Vooch brings, I think you're better off with an attacker off the dribble who can also shoot and defend (Powell can do all 3), rather than someone like Lonzo Ball who is more of a spot up shooter in the halfcourt (Ball excels more in transition).

I'd slide PAW to 4 which fits the modern game. Still need a strong 1 to complement Sato. We can have length, versatility/positionless basketball, shooting, athleticism and defense to complement Vooch and LaVine.

We'll see how much $$ Powell commands though... I think he's going to have a great rest of the season with Portland. Oh and the UCLA connection with LaVine, they overlapped for a year.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#179 » by othawhitemeat » Wed Apr 7, 2021 1:44 pm

I mean, I think we have a lot of flexibility. We can extend Lavine if we want, we can let Thad/Sato/Arch/Valentine/Theiss/Mark/Temple go if we need to. I don't think we will let all of them go, but I am saying we do have a lot of flexibility with Felicio's contract coming off too. The year after Aminu and Troy Brown contracts come off and the only contracts we will have are Vuce, Williams, and Coby White. Coby is not so horrible where we couldn't trade him to land some asset either.

I'm curious what the Bulls FO does for future as the flexibility is there. While the FA class is not great for what we need, there are some unique role player possibilities in Schroeder, Powell, Trent Jr, Ball, and my favorite in Spencer Dinwiddie who seemed to like it here (and he is a risk with the knee injury). However, Dinwiddie is athletic, tall, can defend, create, etc.... Then you have lower tier solid players in JaMychael Green, Josh Hart, Josh Richardson, Nunn, and Rudy Gay. They all would be better than some of the expirings.
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Re: Who is the next target? 

Post#180 » by dougthonus » Wed Apr 7, 2021 1:51 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
sco wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Renegotiating Lavine is some GarPax level coward ****. Stop trying to raise the basement.

We need to raise the ceiling.

Why - explain?

The one undeniably good thing about the Vuc trade is Vuc's contract.

We have two fringe all star level talents locked in for like $45 million next year. That's our cue to go for a 3rd star. Not to spend all of our cap to retain one of the fringe all-star talents.


While this is definitely true in theory, you only have one year while both are on these cheap deals, and there is no way to utilize that cap space to bring in a star this year because there are no star FAs available.

If we do a trade, we don't actually need the cap space to pull it off, we need to match salaries, so the fact that Zachs contract is this or that isn't relevant anymore, because it will be at that same spot next year anyway. It is worth noting that in Zach's FA year, his cap hold is well below the max deal, so we could still generate some pretty good space in the 2022 off season if we don't add major salary.

So yes, I think if there is a way to add a 3rd start with cap room, we should be all over it, but I see no options that make this even remotely possible. As such, your options this summer are:

1: Remain over the cap and add salary for next season to max out team
- Keep Lauri or move him for trade exception
- Keep Thad / Sato
- Use MLE

2: Remain over the cap but don't add salary for next season where you can play cap space game again
- Keep Thad / Sato
- Don't keep Lauri
- Don't use MLE or don't go over 1 year on it if you do

3: Go under the cap and get the best guy you can
- Renounce Lauri
- Waive / possibly stretch Thad / Sato
- Get the best player with cap room you can get / Renegotiate LaVine (or both if you have enough room)

All options leave you with the possibility of trading for a star, though the first two give you better matching contracts because Sato/Thad are expiring / good deals.
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