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What makes the Vucevic trade a success?

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What makes the Vuc trade a success? Will it happen? (next 3 playoffs)

At least two playoff appearances / Yes
14
21%
At least two playoff appearances / No
1
1%
At least one 2nd round appearance / Yes
18
27%
At least one 2nd round appearance / No
6
9%
More than one 2nd round appearance / Yes
11
16%
More than one 2nd round appearance / No
3
4%
At least one ECF appearance / Yes
11
16%
At least one ECF appearance / No
3
4%
 
Total votes: 67

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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#41 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:22 pm

I am not a tanking fan at all. Not saying it doesn't serve its purpose but GarPax absolutely missed the window where that made sense and then compounded it by trading Jimmy and not maximizing a tank after that. They needed to commit to it the year of the three alphas and see it through if that was going to be the plan. They chickened out every time. That might have worked or at least made sense. Today the tank doesn't add up for me. Players change hands too often to not try to be creative in the market of known commodities. Lets see if AK has luck and knows what he is doing.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#42 » by Vince Strong » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:23 pm

I wasnt a fan of it when it went down and obviously nothing has changed my mind there. I will say, this is the first time in AWHILE that I felt some sort of life in the Bulls org. So there's that. But yeah, I don't know what makes this successful..... if anything, this seems to get in the way of being a top contender and damning us to the 5th-10th spot for the next few years.....which in turn, may make our new FO more desperate and double down to not be stuck in the middle of nowhere.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#43 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:29 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:The team needed a shaking up. All old ideas needed to be smashed. Completely new identity, if only for PR reasons needed to be added. Now was Vuc a super smart basketball trade? It isn't the greatest return in the world, it doesn't change the overall championship chances, they are still really low. It was needed, was this the right choice? Well that is debatable but I guess it was the best option at the moment and things in AK's eyes needed to change sooner rather than later. He apparently likes Zach or views treating a guy like Zach important for future relationships with potential stars so he went and did something to address that. Good for him, its smart ion that sense. Woill it bite him in the ass? Sure can but as a Bulls new GM I almost think he had to take action just to separate himself from the old regime. I do not think it was a slam dunk genius move by any stretch but I do think it was a worthy gamble in trying to show willingness to change. Trader Bob was at least an interesting character. Was he always right? No. In Chicago it got so bad that people including myself were missing JERRY KRAUSE. WTF! I guess if you are going to lose we want someone to at least kick and flail instead of just sitting there lol. I do think the trade has more to do with league optics though than actually winning. With his contract, Vuc is flippable to a contender still next year if this looks awful so its not a completely sunk value, although maybe not as good as the 2 FRP's. Zach and Vuc might get you a real package too if you are looking to blow the whole thing up in a year too, but they both will be tradable assets if this thing looks broken.

The being horrible until we draft the franchise player plan just wasn't working. We have had 4 years in that plan and got no good luck with maybe the best luck being going up to 4th and getting Patrick Williams but we still may look back in hindsight and wish we got 3rd to take lamelo.

Vucevic is a proven commodity that can either solidify our winning now or be flipped for assets later if it's just not working. It's a win win

You make your own luck.

Let's not pretend we didn't half-ass the draft rebuild.



How abysmal the rebuild was is what cost GarPax their jobs. Had they really dug in and tanked after they traded rose man it could have been OK. They were always only one foot in the water though. If they jumped in with both feet the fans would have said well damn this sucks but they are at least going for it. What they did was simply not really make a choice and it ruined the spirit of the whole franchise and fanbase. You can tolerate blatantly miserable if you are transparent and make smart decisions. You cannot tolerate half assed efforts by the whole franchise.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#44 » by weneeda2guard » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:34 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:The team needed a shaking up. All old ideas needed to be smashed. Completely new identity, if only for PR reasons needed to be added. Now was Vuc a super smart basketball trade? It isn't the greatest return in the world, it doesn't change the overall championship chances, they are still really low. It was needed, was this the right choice? Well that is debatable but I guess it was the best option at the moment and things in AK's eyes needed to change sooner rather than later. He apparently likes Zach or views treating a guy like Zach important for future relationships with potential stars so he went and did something to address that. Good for him, its smart ion that sense. Woill it bite him in the ass? Sure can but as a Bulls new GM I almost think he had to take action just to separate himself from the old regime. I do not think it was a slam dunk genius move by any stretch but I do think it was a worthy gamble in trying to show willingness to change. Trader Bob was at least an interesting character. Was he always right? No. In Chicago it got so bad that people including myself were missing JERRY KRAUSE. WTF! I guess if you are going to lose we want someone to at least kick and flail instead of just sitting there lol. I do think the trade has more to do with league optics though than actually winning. With his contract, Vuc is flippable to a contender still next year if this looks awful so its not a completely sunk value, although maybe not as good as the 2 FRP's. Zach and Vuc might get you a real package too if you are looking to blow the whole thing up in a year too, but they both will be tradable assets if this thing looks broken.

The being horrible until we draft the franchise player plan just wasn't working. We have had 4 years in that plan and got no good luck with maybe the best luck being going up to 4th and getting Patrick Williams but we still may look back in hindsight and wish we got 3rd to take lamelo.

Vucevic is a proven commodity that can either solidify our winning now or be flipped for assets later if it's just not working. It's a win win

You make your own luck.

Let's not pretend we didn't half-ass the draft rebuild.

I just never went along with this assessment

Not like we added a all star and said let's tank. We talking a hot streak frok niko who not even in the league anymore and putting in Sean Kilpatrick, who again another player not even in the league now. It is all just luck. Teams with better records than us got higher picks than us nearly every year we tanked. Knicks tanked had a worst record than us got a 8th pick last year. There are about a dozen more examples that demonstrate how its all just luck and we struck out.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#45 » by Bandit King » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:42 pm

It is a success for showing the bulls wanting to change the culture of garpax to winning now NBA players will want to come here in free agency.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#46 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:46 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:The being horrible until we draft the franchise player plan just wasn't working. We have had 4 years in that plan and got no good luck with maybe the best luck being going up to 4th and getting Patrick Williams but we still may look back in hindsight and wish we got 3rd to take lamelo.

Vucevic is a proven commodity that can either solidify our winning now or be flipped for assets later if it's just not working. It's a win win

You make your own luck.

Let's not pretend we didn't half-ass the draft rebuild.

I just never went along with this assessment

Not like we added a all star and said let's tank. We talking a hot streak frok niko who not even in the league anymore and putting in Sean Kilpatrick, who again another player not even in the league now. It is all just luck. Teams with better records than us got higher picks than us nearly every year we tanked. Knicks tanked had a worst record than us got a 8th pick last year. There are about a dozen more examples that demonstrate how its all just luck and we struck out.

I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#47 » by MrSparkle » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:53 pm

Vuc is locked up 2 years after this and very unlikely to be in the market for a max extension. It’s not like this was a Gerald Wallace expiring pickup. Good player, good value, solid time-line and future.

I’m hoping Coby and Pat become good players next year, and I’m hoping Zach learns how to work in a 1-2 punch.

Given what we’re looking like at the moment, I’d actually rather remain in play for top-4 than take this sweep job to MIL or BRK. If we don’t win the lotto, then my honest take would be this:

I’d rather have 2y of Vuc than Corey Kispert at #9. I am honestly not worried about losing an 8-14 pick, in the scenario we miss playoffs. GarPax made way too big a f’ing deal about Thabo Sefoloshas and McDermotts.

Vucevic is actually the best offensive player we’ve had since Rose. Zach’s the most talented, Jimmy was the most well-rounded... but Vuc is scoring 20 ppg in his sleep with some of the worst guard play I’ve ever seen the past 2 games.

And he plays a smart brand of basketball. Now we need the guards to get with the program.

And I don’t care about the 2023 pick either. If the Bulls are still a miserable treadmill loser in 2023, then that means Patrick Williams was also a bust, and Artunas doesn’t know what he’s doing, and our problems are bigger than losing a 5-10 pick.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#48 » by PlayerUp » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:07 pm

There is no win win scenario. We're stuck in purgatory until we get lucky. I am for tanking until we get a star but recognize it could take a decade for that to happen. The odds no matter what direction we go aren't in our favor. Again, you just have to get lucky on the way.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#49 » by weneeda2guard » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:51 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:You make your own luck.

Let's not pretend we didn't half-ass the draft rebuild.

I just never went along with this assessment

Not like we added a all star and said let's tank. We talking a hot streak frok niko who not even in the league anymore and putting in Sean Kilpatrick, who again another player not even in the league now. It is all just luck. Teams with better records than us got higher picks than us nearly every year we tanked. Knicks tanked had a worst record than us got a 8th pick last year. There are about a dozen more examples that demonstrate how its all just luck and we struck out.

I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.

The guys here didn't hurt any tank. The coaches were literally sitting guys for extended periods of time for minor injuries and whatever they could think of. Your basically blaming garpax for nba players competing. It's not on any nba players to quit due to some fan made idea of the "right way to tank" these guys don't even know if they will be in the league long of course they supposed to compete why should they lay down so a draft pick can potentially come in and take their spot?

The bulls were reprimanded and warned for purposely tanking so someone felt they were def tanking even if fans feel they tanked the "wrong way "
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#50 » by Wingy » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:16 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:I just never went along with this assessment

Not like we added a all star and said let's tank. We talking a hot streak frok niko who not even in the league anymore and putting in Sean Kilpatrick, who again another player not even in the league now. It is all just luck. Teams with better records than us got higher picks than us nearly every year we tanked. Knicks tanked had a worst record than us got a 8th pick last year. There are about a dozen more examples that demonstrate how its all just luck and we struck out.

I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.

The guys here didn't hurt any tank. The coaches were literally sitting guys for extended periods of time for minor injuries and whatever they could think of. Your basically blaming garpax for nba players competing. It's not on any nba players to quit due to some fan made idea of the "right way to tank" these guys don't even know if they will be in the league long of course they supposed to compete why should they lay down so a draft pick can potentially come in and take their spot?

The bulls were reprimanded and warned for purposely tanking so someone felt they were def tanking even if fans feel they tanked the "wrong way "


Niko's hot streak could've been derailed after 2, maybe 3 games. After that, it's proven he's healthy, he can still play, and then we're sitting him because we don't think he's part of our long-term future. The Pistons, and Cavs just did it with much more established, big name players.

Saying it was just bad luck is an excuse.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#51 » by Dan Z » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:18 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:You make your own luck.

Let's not pretend we didn't half-ass the draft rebuild.

I just never went along with this assessment

Not like we added a all star and said let's tank. We talking a hot streak frok niko who not even in the league anymore and putting in Sean Kilpatrick, who again another player not even in the league now. It is all just luck. Teams with better records than us got higher picks than us nearly every year we tanked. Knicks tanked had a worst record than us got a 8th pick last year. There are about a dozen more examples that demonstrate how its all just luck and we struck out.

I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.


Butler was never thought of on the same level as the players who went for "loads of picks and swaps" (Harden, AD, Paul George, etc.) so there was no way they'd get that kind of return for him.

When I look back trading up for Lauri (the Bulls traded #16 with Butler) didn't even do much. Is Lauri any better than players who were available at 16? John Collins, OG Anunoby, and Jarrett Allen.

The problem, IMO, is that they didn't properly tank the next year. I know the league threatened the Bulls with fines (for sitting Justin Holiday and Robin Lopez), but they still should've done a better job of getting a top pick. If they got Doncic in 2018 then we'd be talking about a different Bulls team right now (although would that mean that GarPax would still be in charge? Yikes!).
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#52 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:26 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:I just never went along with this assessment

Not like we added a all star and said let's tank. We talking a hot streak frok niko who not even in the league anymore and putting in Sean Kilpatrick, who again another player not even in the league now. It is all just luck. Teams with better records than us got higher picks than us nearly every year we tanked. Knicks tanked had a worst record than us got a 8th pick last year. There are about a dozen more examples that demonstrate how its all just luck and we struck out.

I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.

The guys here didn't hurt any tank. The coaches were literally sitting guys for extended periods of time for minor injuries and whatever they could think of. Your basically blaming garpax for nba players competing. It's not on any nba players to quit due to some fan made idea of the "right way to tank" these guys don't even know if they will be in the league long of course they supposed to compete why should they lay down so a draft pick can potentially come in and take their spot?

The bulls were reprimanded and warned for purposely tanking so someone felt they were def tanking even if fans feel they tanked the "wrong way "

I don't think we should have tanked. I think we should have rebuilt properly. Not done a half-assed teardown which necessitated us to tank as we were stuck between stations.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#53 » by dougthonus » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:30 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.


The guys traded for monster packages so far have been Harden, Davis, George, and Holiday. Butler is probably only better than Holiday of that group at the time the trades were made (George was coming off an MVP like season that year and Harden/Davis are clearly much better).

It is interesting though, if you go back prior to the Butler trade, superstars were always traded for 10c on the dollar. It is only in this recent era where teams have gotten real, full value for superstar trades. It's been a huge dynamic shift in the NBA. It used to be you always lost when you traded a superstar, but that hasn't necessarily been the case for the Thunder or Pelicans, time will tell if it works out for those guys or not, but they definitely have intriguing set of assets.

That wasn't the case historically though, the Bulls were kind of in a middle ground, Butler at the time of the trade wasn't viewed as a true superstar, and the Bulls got back pretty good value for him. #4 pick from one year earlier, #7 pick that draft, and LaVine had played really strongly prior to getting hurt and was viewed (and delivered on) as high potential.

If Dunn or Lauri had panned out, then it could have been a pretty sweet deal (and if you look at someone like Fox who struggled a bit his first year and then tore it up afterwards, it wasn't totally nuts to think a PG might take a couple years). That said Dunn was a lot older than Fox, and I didn't care for him at all in the trade.

Either way, Boston was the only team that had a ton of draft assets, and they refused to cash them in for Butler, ironically, this was probably a big loss for both us and Boston potentially, though you can argue that LaVine ended up better than any of the Boston assets would have ended up.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#54 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:41 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.


The guys traded for monster packages so far have been Harden, Davis, George, and Holiday. Butler is probably only better than Holiday of that group at the time the trades were made (George was coming off an MVP like season that year and Harden/Davis are clearly much better).

It is interesting though, if you go back prior to the Butler trade, superstars were always traded for 10c on the dollar. It is only in this recent era where teams have gotten real, full value for superstar trades. It's been a huge dynamic shift in the NBA. It used to be you always lost when you traded a superstar, but that hasn't necessarily been the case for the Thunder or Pelicans, time will tell if it works out for those guys or not, but they definitely have intriguing set of assets.

That wasn't the case historically though, the Bulls were kind of in a middle ground, Butler at the time of the trade wasn't viewed as a true superstar, and the Bulls got back pretty good value for him. #4 pick from one year earlier, #7 pick that draft, and LaVine had played really strongly prior to getting hurt and was viewed (and delivered on) as high potential.

If Dunn or Lauri had panned out, then it could have been a pretty sweet deal (and if you look at someone like Fox who struggled a bit his first year and then tore it up afterwards, it wasn't totally nuts to think a PG might take a couple years). That said Dunn was a lot older than Fox, and I didn't care for him at all in the trade.

Either way, Boston was the only team that had a ton of draft assets, and they refused to cash them in for Butler, ironically, this was probably a big loss for both us and Boston potentially, though you can argue that LaVine ended up better than any of the Boston assets would have ended up.

Butler has always been better than George. Especially at his prime, he's pretty close to AD too as AD needs to be a 2nd star for his teams to contend. Butler can seemingly be the lead dog.

If we weren't getting fair value offers for our superstar (he obviously was a superstar despite perceptions), then we should not have traded him. Period.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#55 » by HomoSapien » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:51 pm

dougthonus wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:To clarify, I meant culture changing in terms of being viewed as a winning team and appealing destination for star talent. If we miss the playoffs, then it's unlikely we'll attract anyone of note.


Which again, gets back to winning. Teams like Brooklyn and the Clippers when they got their stars didn't make big trades or bring in star talent to win and be looked at as better culture, they just had solid performances. The Clippers actually shed big name players recently and did the reverse.

So Vuc doesn't change the culture himself, which then gets back to how much winning do you need to do for this team to be viewed as a success and for people to view this cultural change to have taken place?

Personally, I don't think making the playoffs will even do anything unless we also represent ourselves well. The East playoffs are pathetic right now. The four seed is a game above .500, we're 7 games under and we're in the play in tournament.


I'm not sure what part you're disagreeing with. As far as I can, we're essentially saying the same thing.

I said in a different post in this thread that I believed that getting to the playoffs and giving a competitive effort would likely change that perception.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#56 » by dougthonus » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:57 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Butler has always been better than George. Especially at his prime, he's pretty close to AD too as AD needs to be a 2nd star for his teams to contend. Butler can seemingly be the lead dog.

If we weren't getting fair value offers for our superstar (he obviously was a superstar despite perceptions), then we should not have traded him. Period.


George was coming off of a 28 point per game season where he shot over 41% from 3 and was also a great defender and was 3rd in MVP voting. It was a better season than any Butler has ever had. He was also in his prime at the time and would be good for quite some time.

It was definitely a much better season than Butler was coming off of when he was traded, and he had a previous history as a star player and had that view around him as well, Butler was still building that view of himself. Either way, I agree with you that Butler is probably the better of the two players, but I think they're both overrated myself.

Whether you want to say someone should or shouldn't trade a guy for fair value, that isn't really the point I was arguing. I'm not discussing whether the Bulls should or should not have received Butler. Just noting your point on comparables isn't really comparable and ironically, even if it was, LaVine might still end up as the best asset moved for any star player in recent memory depending where all those picks land.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#57 » by weneeda2guard » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:10 pm

Wingy wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I mean it's not all luck.

We traded Butler for 3 roster players (Lauri, Dunn, Lavine). Compare that to every other recent trade package for a star (most of whom were worse players than Butler) where the team trading the star gets loads of picks and swaps.

We didn't make a sound effort to build through the draft. They cobbled together a shoddy replacement core. That's what actually happened.

The guys here didn't hurt any tank. The coaches were literally sitting guys for extended periods of time for minor injuries and whatever they could think of. Your basically blaming garpax for nba players competing. It's not on any nba players to quit due to some fan made idea of the "right way to tank" these guys don't even know if they will be in the league long of course they supposed to compete why should they lay down so a draft pick can potentially come in and take their spot?

The bulls were reprimanded and warned for purposely tanking so someone felt they were def tanking even if fans feel they tanked the "wrong way "


Niko's hot streak could've been derailed after 2, maybe 3 games. After that, it's proven he's healthy, he can still play, and then we're sitting him because we don't think he's part of our long-term future. The Pistons, and Cavs just did it with much more established, big name players.

Saying it was just bad luck is an excuse.

Again, this take is just narrow-minded in a sense. If niko didn't get hot, then someone else could have gotten hot. A lot of teams were being horrible on purpose and anyone could have come in and got hot. That is just the way things go with tanking. You have teams who didn't aggressively tanked who got top 3 picks. You got teams who did that didn't get very high picks. You also have to factor in there was a thinking at the time that niko needed to shine in order for the bulls to get a 1st rd pick( which were harder to come by at that time) in a deal for him. I guess in hindsight it was all for naught considering we got Chandler Hutchison with that pick and now he gone. But that was the thinking then.

I'm not defending garpax but all the revisionist history , or believing it was some surefire course to top picks is just incorrect. We can do hindsight all day silver has changed this all up. And as I mentioned before the Bulls were called out for tanking so someone was noticing it even if we don't want to admit they were.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#58 » by drosestruts » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:17 pm

I voted for one second-round appearance indicating the trade was successful.

Sucking every year and hoping some 19-year old savior comes and returns your franchise to glory is a terrible strategy, and one that's hard to sit by and watch. I've always felt that fans in favor of tanking are rarely the ones tuning in to every regular-season game. I like watching basketball, the Bulls are the team I grew up being able to see on TV and to this day are the regionally broadcasted basketball team in my area, maybe this makes me a Bulls fan by default, but it's who I have access to watching outside of buying league pass or illegally streaming other teams' games. So the best thing for my enjoyment is for the Bulls to be good. This isn't a stock I check up on in the morning paper from time to time. I'm spending hours every week watching the Bulls. For the past couple years it hasn't been fun, and I've often found myself just watching some tv show or movie instead of a whole game.

They finally made a move for the sole purpose of being better. I'm already excited! For me, in some ways, the trade was already a success. For the Bulls' path towards a championship I'd say this trade for Vucevic should put them into contention to make the 2nd round of the playoffs, if they don't achieve that I'd imagine something went wrong along the way. Regression or injury from Zach or Vuc or something.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#59 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:18 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Butler has always been better than George. Especially at his prime, he's pretty close to AD too as AD needs to be a 2nd star for his teams to contend. Butler can seemingly be the lead dog.

If we weren't getting fair value offers for our superstar (he obviously was a superstar despite perceptions), then we should not have traded him. Period.


George was coming off of a 28 point per game season where he shot over 41% from 3 and was also a great defender and was 3rd in MVP voting. It was a better season than any Butler has ever had. He was also in his prime at the time and would be good for quite some time.

It was definitely a much better season than Butler was coming off of when he was traded, and he had a previous history as a star player and had that view around him as well, Butler was still building that view of himself. Either way, I agree with you that Butler is probably the better of the two players, but I think they're both overrated myself.

Whether you want to say someone should or shouldn't trade a guy for fair value, that isn't really the point I was arguing. I'm not discussing whether the Bulls should or should not have received Butler. Just noting your point on comparables isn't really comparable and ironically, even if it was, LaVine might still end up as the best asset moved for any star player in recent memory depending where all those picks land.

Nope.

Butler last season as a Bull: 13.8 win shares, 25 PER
George last OKC season: 11.9 win shares, 23 PER

George has 1 season in his career with WS/48 > .2 when he barely had .202 in the season above.

Butler has 4 and counting. Which doesn't even include his .198 season in Minny.

Butler is a tier above George as a star.
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Re: What makes the Vucevic trade a success? 

Post#60 » by dougthonus » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:27 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Nope.

Butler last season as a Bull: 13.8 win shares, 25 PER
George last OKC season: 11.9 win shares, 23 PER

George has 1 season in his career with WS/48 > .2 when he barely had .202 in the season above.

Butler has 4 and counting. Which doesn't even include his .198 season in Minny.

Butler is a tier above George as a star.


I agree with you about Butler being better than George. I think George is super overrated and Butler is somewhat overrated. I don't think that was the consensus opinion that summer though. Points, fair or not mean a lot more, as does three point shooting, and previous reputation.

Not sure, but I don't recall Butler ever being in the MVP conversation. a 3rd place finish there for George shows how the league valued him at the time.
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