PG: Tough Loss

[Snoove]

Thanks for hte highlights! That was great. TBH, I felt like most of what I watched was Utah draining threes, carving out larger and larger leads ... then all of sudden it was a 3-6 point game again, but they didn't show what the Bulls did to claw back.

When they did show it, it wasn't Bulls hit contested jumpers or knocking down threes (which is what excites in highlights these days) ... it was Bulls moving ball and finding open cutters.

I say that 1) because good gracious it seems like Utah was hitting a ton of threes (and we couldn't at all), and 2) the IQ on offense is very high from some key guys and the team as a whole looks very beautiful at times when they operate their game plan.

I really wish we could have traded Lauri for something. I think and hope he has a better career at his next stop, but it's so clear it's never going to work here. And his minutes are a detriment to him and the team. I don't think he'll be here next year.

I do not feel the same way about White. I'd rather see White in starting lineup tbh. I think the wholesale Lauri and White to bench for Young and Sato may have been too much. I think just Young for Lauri, keep White, and see if Young's presence has a positive influence on White finding his niche in the offense. He's not a veteran, he's not Lou Will or Crawford, you can't just release him off the bench and let him go at his skilled shooting ... I think he really needs the unit around him to help define his role (and for first 1.5 years he's had a crap unit around him also). Vet presence of Vuc and Young is VASTLY different than Wendell and Lauri, and I would like to see White start with those two vets (I know I'm in the minority).

I also have soured on Sato quite a bit. Again, I think he's a good player, but I don't think he does much for this Bulls squad because of where our flaws really lay. I see him pretty consistently get burnt by both better and average starting PGs. His offense is not bad at all, he doesn't make many mistakes on that side at all, but he also does not do anything really dynamic to push the offense into another level.

Don't know the cap situation fully, but I'm hoping dropping Sato and Lauri allows for us to sign Lonzo.

I am disappointed in Pat's development. Don't want to blame him, but I'm just waiting to see more. He's really talented and got the things you can't teach. This is another reason why I wish we would have traded Lauri. I am interested in seeing Pat at the 4 with Vuc next year. But to do that (and move Young to bench), Pat really has to prove he's taking big steps. Right now he MAY be taking small steps but that's it.

Imagine a more developed Pat and White next year:
Vuc / Theis (resign cheap)
Pat / Young
? / Brown (maybe start?)
Lavine / Young
Lonzo / ?(draft)

Big dearth created at SF again ... but that frontcourt rotation seems balanced and uber talented, as does the backcourt. That SF spot needs to be filled by a lockdown defender (ala the Royce O'Neals of starting lineups). That way you got some great athletes capable of defending with length and strength (Lonzo/Pat/SF). But that whole plan wholly hinges on Pat taking a big step to begin year two on both his offense tenacity and defensive activity.

Are you blind man? Coby White is NOT a PG! He is basketball dumb and lacks 100% effort. Just watch last 2 minutes of 1st half. Sato gets 3rd foul, so Coby had to go in. Bulls were down 47-50. Those two minutes ended 2-9 with PG Coby. I know Sato is not some star PG, but he is very intelligent player, who cares about team success on the first place. Coby White doesn't. If Sato stayed those two minutes, I bet the halftime score would have been much much better.

Also sometimes watch Coby White not boxing out on defense, not running with cutting player, etc. He has no winning mentality.

[Hugi Mancura]

Bulls have strange roster construction right now. Out of their 8 best players 5 are PF's or C's (Thad, Vuc, Lauri, Pwill, Theis). That creates those strange lineups. Against Phoenix 4 big lineup worked on Phoenix game, not so much on this game. Was it because in Phoenix game the only PG was Sato and now it was Coby. Playing Valentine long minutes is understandable. He is Bulls second best playmaker.

For Lavine and Vuc not playing. They were bad early in the game. They deserved to be benched. They are the all-stars and highest paid players. Does it mean you don't need to play defense? Right now it seems this is exactly what it means.

Roster is what it is. Donovan has very little say on that. People turning on him? Well, you don't know what kind of coach you have before you have him. I doubt people followed OKC games too often on previous years. I wouldn't say those OKC teams were stacked, but they had some good players, so it is difficult to say how much the success is about players and how much because of coach. How much last years success was because of CP3? CP3 is doing wonders in Phoenix right now. Now that people has seen Donovan coach they are also starting to see his weaknesses as a coach. Donovan is a one trick pony. Get him a roster that suits his playing style and he will make players look good and young players take steps forward. Get him a roster that is not build for his playing style and it will look bad and young players will become lousier. Now if Bulls want to find success with Donovan they should get him the roster he needs.

[PrimzyBulls81]

Im souring a bit on coach D, some weird lineups and rotations once again,also didnt give T.Brown even 10-15min of play.

[HOTCARL_o]

Im souring a bit on coach D, some weird lineups and rotations once again,also didnt give T.Brown even 10-15min of play.

Would've rather played TBJ instead of Coby today, just for defense and awareness. If Lauri and Coby aren't playing good Billy can't be scared to pull them out. They've had enough entitlement minutes already and see the Bulls moving on from them after this season.

[ZOMG]

Here's a fun stat.

With 8:44 to go in the 2nd half, Lauri Markkanen had 3 touches in the entire game. I am not kidding. Three.

And you know what?

He had scored on each one of those 3 touches. One didn't count because it was a bailout shot slightly after the buzzer when LaVine didn't want to further ding his own crappy stats, but he made it.

Remember, this is a guy who started the previous game and played like the first 14 minutes, ending up with 16pts and 10rbs.

This s**t doesn't make any sense. If you're going to f**k him over like that, just go the full nine yards, kick him out of the rotation and lie that he has to "sleep on some things" like you did with Chandler. In the 1st half, Markkanen had by far the fewest touches of any Bull who saw playing time.

I know many people here are happy this is the case. They want the scapegoat out of the door ASAP so we can all go on with our lives. But if we're still trying to win (are we?), this is borderline criminal misuse of an actual asset who was having a good season. I don't know what message Donovan is trying to send by marginalizing and embarrassing a guy like Lauri and giving extra playing time to the likes of Denzel Valentine, but I'm not sure it's working.

Speaking of things that are not working... there's an elephant in the room and he's at least as slow as Wendell Carter Jr. Before the trade deadline, I was aware that Vucevic wasn't the quickest center in the league, but frankly, his cement feet have been something of a shock. This is a guy who absolutely cannot get past anyone with the ball in hands. I don't care if it's an inanimate object in front of him - Vuc is settling for a jumpshot.

As far as playing styles go, Vuc is like the center equivalent of Denzel. He's a large body, but his slow feet and zero hops mean that he plays a lot smaller than he actually is. He subsists on a variety of gimmicky flips, scoops and hooks that aren't exactly the stuff you want to rely on as a team.

He's also shooting 29% from the perimeter, which doesn't help things. And don't get me started on his "defense". If anyone thought Vuc was going to bring rim protection... oooooh boy.

We were only kept in the game by the endless jump hooks of a 32-year-old 6'7'' guy. Think about that for a moment.

I hear that Zach and Vuc "just need to figure it out", and apparently then some magical chemistry will emerge. I don't see that. IMO they're like oil and water, which is starting to become the same old story for LaVine. He's playing himself out of a max deal if this goes on, and I'm not sure the FO will want to build around an expensive dude whose effort level immdiately dipped when he made the AS team. This is not a good look for Zach at all.

Oh yeah, highlight of the game - the Jazz announcers calling Sato "Santoransky", without fail, all game.

[bearadonisdna]

cant defend donovan here.
he made adjustments and GM added talent, and the team got worse.

[bearadonisdna]

1-8 in last 9.

how is sato still starting?
its like a youth team wheres it ok that we lose but just give the effort.



like on what planet is it ok for sato to be on the ball? its usually the opposite but donovan is making chicken sht out of chicken feed. Sato doesnt provide speed, passing, defense, or scoring as an ON the ball player.

[bearadonisdna]

Right now im literally done with BILLZO.
Lauri didnt get 1 shot to start with Vuc, im not giving BILLZO a shot either.

[Devinpo]

6 game skid but apart from their 3 point % the Bulls aren't playing bad ball. They're gonna murder the East after this trip.

These guys prob never practiced much and we have 4 new rotation guys. It takes time to fully gel im not worried we will get it together and will be a problem in the East once we do

[Pentele]

how is sato still starting?
its like a youth team wheres it ok that we lose but just give the effort.

Who else? Coby? No, I think not. Coby's perimeter defense is non-existent and the Bulls cannot afford that with the current roster. Increased playing time for Coby as a pg would also lead to more turnovers at the offensive end (it has in the past). Giving Zach the ball also leads to turnovers. In addition, at least at the moment, Zach does not seem very capable of getting the ball to the bigs, and I mean Vuc especially. So that leaves Valentine, who is capable of being the playmaker from the bench, at best (i.e. in this game), so that is a no as well.

[Wingy]

1-8 in last 9.

how is sato still starting?
its like a youth team wheres it ok that we lose but just give the effort.

like on what planet is it ok for sato to be on the ball? its usually the opposite but donovan is making chicken sht out of chicken feed. Sato doesnt provide speed, passing, defense, or scoring as an ON the ball player.

What on Earth are you talking about? Of all the problems on this team, you lead with Sato?

What are the alternatives? Plus, with Sato on the floor we were much steadier, and more competitive. As soon as he got into foul trouble, we went downhill with more Coby. He’s not an ideal starter, but he’s not some major achilles. His actual competence allows the team to compete unlike the alternatives.

[MrSparkle]

If you look at some fundamentals, the team is actually improving. The high, balanced assist numbers (7 players with atleast 3); low turnovers (7); strong rebounding and points in paint. Nice plays out of timeouts (Vuc 3).

The main things that stand out: bad 3P% (early season strength gone to the gutter), major defensive issues with Vuc, Zach, Lauri, and Coby (4 best shooters), and generally a wacky roster construction (too many bigs). So it’s a pick-your-poison, as there isn’t a line-up that can play these shooters together without defense (and playmaking) becoming a problem.

Big problem used to be losing games while shooting 50% from the arc. Fun and up-tempo, but ultimately an empty calorie offense. If Vuc, Coby, Lauri, and Zach find a better rhythm shooting, it’ll help a lot.

It’s obvious that with this many big men, you need a smart, well-rounded PG like Lowry, Conley or Paul for more relief. Not saying to pursue them, been largely opposed. But the team is different now. In the meantime, Coby and Lauri need to shoot better, because that’s all they bring to the table.

Last thing.. guys catch their hot streaks at different times. Mitchell, Booker and Curry kill teams for a living. We did catch them having their hottest scoring moments (way hotter shooting than earlier season meetings). Mitchell’s 3Ps rolled out, but Clarkson picked up the slack over last time. Overall Bulls did a decent job on Mitchell (considering the state of our defense, and Gobert’s screen setting). He really killed Chicago at the end of the 3rd. Hit two tough shots and blew up the lead; their run continued into 4th. Lot of catch-up from those two runs.

This roster has too many established bigs and too many developmental guards/wings. I can see why Billy is just saying to “to hell with it” and playing Denzel more than you’d want. The only guard with a confident combo of handles, passing and scoring.

Besides shooting the ball better, and playing worse teams (sigh... eastern conference), I’m not sure there’s any magic trick to this current roster, besides shooting better from 3P.

Need about 2 upgrades/swaps (starting SF & PG) and significant improvement from Pat/Coby.

[bearadonisdna]

1-8 in last 9.

how is sato still starting?
its like a youth team wheres it ok that we lose but just give the effort.

like on what planet is it ok for sato to be on the ball? its usually the opposite but donovan is making chicken sht out of chicken feed. Sato doesnt provide speed, passing, defense, or scoring as an ON the ball player.

What on Earth are you talking about? Of all the problems on this team, you lead with Sato?

What are the alternatives? Plus, with Sato on the floor we were much steadier, and more competitive. As soon as he got into foul trouble, we went downhill with more Coby. He’s not an ideal starter, but he’s not some major achilles. His actual competence allows the team to compete unlike the alternatives.

we are way way less competitve. look at w/L record, its abysmal and a floor we never reached with cobe in the lineup.

in this stretch sato hasnt hit cobes season scoring average even once! before cobe got benched he had multiple 20 point games.

dont give me the its not all about scoring stuff, the bulls are losing, losing, losing.

[Wingy]

1-8 in last 9.

how is sato still starting?
its like a youth team wheres it ok that we lose but just give the effort.

like on what planet is it ok for sato to be on the ball? its usually the opposite but donovan is making chicken sht out of chicken feed. Sato doesnt provide speed, passing, defense, or scoring as an ON the ball player.

What on Earth are you talking about? Of all the problems on this team, you lead with Sato?

What are the alternatives? Plus, with Sato on the floor we were much steadier, and more competitive. As soon as he got into foul trouble, we went downhill with more Coby. He’s not an ideal starter, but he’s not some major achilles. His actual competence allows the team to compete unlike the alternatives.

we are way way less competitve. look at w/L record, its abysmal and a floor we never reached with cobe in the lineup.

in this stretch sato hasnt hit cobes season scoring average even once! before cobe got benched he had multiple 20 point games.

dont give me the its not all about scoring stuff, the bulls are losing, losing, losing.

If you think Coby’s the answer over Sato, I don’t even know what to say.

[bearadonisdna]

What on Earth are you talking about? Of all the problems on this team, you lead with Sato?

What are the alternatives? Plus, with Sato on the floor we were much steadier, and more competitive. As soon as he got into foul trouble, we went downhill with more Coby. He’s not an ideal starter, but he’s not some major achilles. His actual competence allows the team to compete unlike the alternatives.

we are way way less competitve. look at w/L record, its abysmal and a floor we never reached with cobe in the lineup.

in this stretch sato hasnt hit cobes season scoring average even once! before cobe got benched he had multiple 20 point games.

dont give me the its not all about scoring stuff, the bulls are losing, losing, losing.

If you think Coby’s the answer over Sato, I don’t even know what to say.

Cobe at least has upside! look at game log before he got benched. he is a in a different tier than sato good grief.

[ZOMG]

As I wrote in the Lauri thread, he now knows he's out the door and it doesn't make much sense for him to play anymore (or at least try hard), risking injury before a critical RFA offseason. And the Bulls have brought this on themselves.

Benching Markkanen is one thing, but you can still give a player a relevant role and steady lineups to work with if you want to get use out of him. Instead, Billy is yanking Lauri around and showing him he doesn't matter anymore. Can't blame Markkanen for getting the message.

[Ice Man]

WTF was this

Read on Twitter

?s=19

The team was +6 without them during the 4th quarter, before they were subbed in. And Stacey was praising Billy for going with the guys who were bringing the team back, while this board is burying Donovan for exactly the same thing.

Everybody has an opinion on bench rotations and frankly I'm not sure which of you, if any, is correct.

[StunnerKO]

I heard about Billy and his Rotations in OKC but yea he gotta tighten up especially with a least talented team .

[Louri]

It's impossible for Billy to hide both Lavine and Vucevich in defense. They need new D minded players to roster. Good luck to Billy for the rest of the season.

[sco]

On the line-up comments, it's obvious to me that Theis needs more minutes...and should probably be starting at PF over Thad. White is lost cause, and should just be out of the rotation in favor of Brown/Green. Valentine is inconsistent, but inconsistent is better than White's consistently bad.

I think a line-up of:

Sato, Val
Zach, Temple/Brown
PWill, Brown
Theis, Lauri
Vuc, Thad

may be better mix for us. If we need Thad to start, bench Sato and start Brown.