Image ImageImage Image

PG: Finally!

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper

Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 16,437
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#181 » by Stratmaster » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:32 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:It sure was. I paid close attention to that shot in particular because I knew that someone would try to classify it as a bad shot when (in fact) it was just a clutch dagger that somebody had to take.


It WAS a mindless shot to take. Way too deep and from a player 0-4 for the night until then. It was a classic Lavine-low-bb-IQ shot.

I know we have been in tank and terrible mode so long that we forget how real life basketball teams operate

But stars carry teams. And if we want any shot of having any success for the rest of the season and going forward, this team has to go forward understanding that this is a 2 star team now and everyone else needs to fall in their roles. Stars score stars take big shots. I dont care if lavine was 0-7. Game coming down to the wire, vs a good team making a run on us to steal the game from us I want the ball in my 2 stars hands early and often and I want my stars taking nearly all of the big shots unless it's heavily contested which lavine was not.

I dont want satoransky taking my big shots. I dont want Troy brown Jr taking my big shots. I dont care If they are 3-4 from 3. Things change in closing minutes. And if we want any shot in hell of being a playoff team now and in the future , we need lavine and Vucevic to be stars.

Let me also say, I'm sorry but lauri has had his shot. You can blame everyone else but this is on him. He didn't take advantage of his opportunity that he had for more than 3 seasons. Now he is either going to be a role player here or moved.
Amen

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 16,437
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#182 » by Stratmaster » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:36 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
It WAS a mindless shot to take. Way too deep and from a player 0-4 for the night until then. It was a classic Lavine-low-bb-IQ shot.

I know we have been in tank and terrible mode so long that we forget how real life basketball teams operate

But stars carry teams. And if we want any shot of having any success for the rest of the season and going forward, this team has to go forward understanding that this is a 2 star team now and everyone else needs to fall in their roles. Stars score stars take big shots. I dont care if lavine was 0-7. Game coming down to the wire, vs a good team making a run on us to steal the game from us I want the ball in my 2 stars hands early and often and I want my stars taking nearly all of the big shots unless it's heavily contested which lavine was not.

I dont want satoransky taking my big shots. I dont want Troy brown Jr taking my big shots. I dont care If they are 3-4 from 3. Things change in closing minutes. And if we want any shot in hell of being a playoff team now and in the future , we need lavine and Vucevic to be stars.

Let me also say, I'm sorry but lauri has had his shot. You can blame everyone else but this is on him. He didn't take advantage of his opportunity that he had for more than 3 seasons. Now he is either going to be a role player here or moved.


Well, I'm sorry to say this but you and many other posters have one distinctive, serious misunderstanding. That is, I hope it's a misunderstanding, otherwise this kind of targeting is pretty lame. I see ZOMG has also had to explain the same thing lately.

My post had n-o-t-h-i-n-g t-o d-o w-i-t-h L-a-u-r-i. That last paragraph of yours was unnecessary. Just because Lauri's my favorite player and I post a lot about him, doesn't mean the only objective in my every post is to refer to him. This is some weird obsession a lot of you guys have in your heads now.

Last night I would've preferred the guy you detest, Satoransky, to take clutch shots. He was hot, hot like Kate Upton dressed in wet t-shirt at noon in July by the pool.

Let's be clear of one other thing: Zach made a lucky shot, good for him. But seriously, he didn't carry the Bulls in this game. His performance was very average, nothing like a performance of a "star". You're setting the bar really low if you really thought that was the case. If you referred to him as an ASG player generally speaking, fine. I think going with the hot hand in a single game is better tactics but to each his own, I guess.

No matter how you slice it, to me that was a poorly judged low percentage shot.
God i hate when I see one of your posts in a response to me. This block feature should work better.

For someone who has such a hard on for Lavine and takes every opportunity to trash him this post just seeps irony like **** from an unattended septic tank; which, come to think of it, reminds me of most of your posts.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 16,437
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#183 » by Stratmaster » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:38 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:
DuckIII wrote:It’s interesting how people see things differently. The Lavine shot at the end of the game was not a problem at all. There were only 3 seconds on the shot clock.

But he ad other shots in the game, and in the last few games frankly, that I did find problematic from a shot quality/shot clock perspective. Shots more reminiscent of the Lavine or years prior who seemed to feel the need to do everything himself.

But the late game shot wasn’t one of them.


It definitely was, if you include and since you have to include all the useless ball pounding he did before taking the shot. Why?

If someone would've passed him the ball with 4 secs. left, I can sympathize Lavine feeling like it's a live hand grenade and he has to take the shot, now. Then I would feel differently.

But now, prior to taking that shot, he just very casually kept pounding the ball and not even trying to move forward although he had 7 friggin seconds to do so and improve chances of that ball going in. Maybe his legs were tired, maybe he didn't check the shot clock... but the pic is pretty telling.

If you settle for that tough shot so early, you obviously have to have a clue to run the clock down even more. He made a poor judgment when he didn't. It's not like we're talking about this the first time. Was there a game which we lost when he shot 5 secs. left in the clock and missed?

And if the original idea wasn't to settle for a shot that deep, why not advance with the ball? He had time and options. No. He decided to try and make the headlines with hero ball.

Poor judgment in either case.

Image
He shot the ball 3 seconds later. With 4 seconds on the clock. You sound very foolish dying on this hill.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 16,437
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#184 » by Stratmaster » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:40 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:
kodo wrote:
FranchisePlayer wrote:
It definitely was, if you include and since you have to include all the useless ball pounding he did before taking the shot. Why?

If someone would've passed him the ball with 4 secs. left, I can sympathize Lavine feeling like it's a live hand grenade and he has to take the shot, now. Then I would feel differently.

But now, prior to taking that shot, he just very casually kept pounding the ball and not even trying to move forward although he had 7 friggin seconds to do so and improve chances of that ball going in. Maybe his legs were tired, maybe he didn't check the shot clock... but the pic is pretty telling.

If you settle for that tough shot so early, you obviously have to have a clue to run the clock down even more. He made a poor judgment when he didn't. It's not like we're talking about this the first time. Was there a game which we lost when he shot 5 secs. left in the clock and missed?

And if the original idea wasn't to settle for a shot that deep, why not advance with the ball? He had time and options. No. He decided to try and make the headlines with hero ball.

Poor judgment in either case.


He got the ball with 7 seconds left.
He ran a P&R with Vucevic; Brooklyn responded by doubling Lavine.
Vuc rolls to the rim when this happens, dragging Lavine's man with him but leaving his man w/ Lavine on the semi-mismatch.
4 seconds left, Lavine with a "big" on him opts to shoot an open long 3 over driving into the bigger defender or attempting a difficult pass to Vuc with the defender fronting.

There was nothing wrong here.

I don't understand what you mean by running the clock out, it wasn't an end of game situation. There was 1:24 left.

Lavine tried to run plays twice this possession with Vuc. What he was doing was an exact mirror of what just happened seconds ago, if he did the exact same thing (which led to the initial failed possession) he would have been an idiot.


I think an All-Star, a gifted scorer, can see other options than only a) pass to center b) try from really deep. Why not get closer to the basket with his athleticism? Pretty limited view if he really thought that was the best choice. There doesn't have to be anything "wrong" here; this is my opinion but I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one critical of that play.

I mean if you lead by 7 points, 1:24 left and you decide to go for a low percentage shot, do it when the shot clock is closer to zero. Leave less time for the opposing team. Just a basic principle to be followed, even if you think 1:24 is not even near of an end of game.


Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 34,017
And1: 18,527
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#185 » by johnnyvann840 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:46 pm

DuckIII wrote:It’s interesting how people see things differently. The Lavine shot at the end of the game was not a problem at all. There were only 3 seconds on the shot clock.

But he ad other shots in the game, and in the last few games frankly, that I did find problematic from a shot quality/shot clock perspective. Shots more reminiscent of the Lavine or years prior who seemed to feel the need to do everything himself.

But the late game shot wasn’t one of them.


Yeah, after watching it again, I realized it wasn't that bad. I reacted the way I did mainly because Stacy King made a huge deal about it after the shot saying how "for anybody else it would have been a bad shot, but for Zach it wasn't". I thought there was more time left but seeing the replay I realized that there wasn't nearly as much time left as I thought. Important thing is the team won and looked much better and took care of the ball better. The last few games they have really eliminated as many bad possessions and careless unforced errors. Turnovers have plagued this team big time this season and are the root cause of the record being what it is.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
PaKii94
General Manager
Posts: 8,327
And1: 4,613
Joined: Aug 22, 2013
     

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#186 » by PaKii94 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 11:10 pm

Eh I am indifferent about that shot at the end. Lavine has shown enough to deserve to take the shot but he wasn't having a game prior where I was confident in that shot. It was a "no no no yes" situation.

However, there were quite a few "bad" lavine moments in the game prior to that shot though that he definitely deserves critique for. And it's an aspect where he can learn to improve.

For me Lavine has gone from bad lavine 99% of the time (2019), horrible game sense, chucking up bad/tough shots
to bad lavine 60% of the time (2020) better game sense, still bad/tough shots, horrible in crunch time situations
to bad lavine 20% of the time (2021) he still struggles in pressure situations and crunch time but much less.

With Vuc it kind of reset him to 2020 Lavine but I think 2021 lavine will reemerge again once he gets comfortable.
CobyWhite0
Junior
Posts: 425
And1: 345
Joined: Dec 28, 2020
 

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#187 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 11:13 pm

Why does it seem that the most fervent Zach critics are also Lauri's biggest fans?

Zach has plenty of flaws one can easily and factually point out, but bitching about this shot? Comical. At least there's no need to name names.
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 16,437
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#188 » by Stratmaster » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:14 am

PaKii94 wrote:Eh I am indifferent about that shot at the end. Lavine has shown enough to deserve to take the shot but he wasn't having a game prior where I was confident in that shot. It was a "no no no yes" situation.

However, there were quite a few "bad" lavine moments in the game prior to that shot though that he definitely deserves critique for. And it's an aspect where he can learn to improve.

For me Lavine has gone from bad lavine 99% of the time (2019), horrible game sense, chucking up bad/tough shots
to bad lavine 60% of the time (2020) better game sense, still bad/tough shots, horrible in crunch time situations
to bad lavine 20% of the time (2021) he still struggles in pressure situations and crunch time but much less.

With Vuc it kind of reset him to 2020 Lavine but I think 2021 lavine will reemerge again once he gets comfortable.
The thing is, there are less bad Lavine moments than any other player on this team. Of course he makes mistakes. Even superstars make mistakes and take dumb shots, and Zach is an all-star, not a superstar.

As far as arrogance in shot selection, in general in the NBA, the higher the level of stardom the more long, early shots they take.

Zach is fine. But no, he ain't perfect.

The aggravating thing is the nitpicking on every freaking play with Lavine. It comes with being traded for Jimmy Butler and/or it comes from Lauri fans who think the way to make their guy look better is to trash Lavine. Not a single word about a couple really bad 3 attempts by Vuc, but they try to tear apart what was one of the most necessary and clutch shots we have seen from a bull lately (finally!)

It's just gotten really old. I really love posting on here and have been for over 10 years. But it is getting difficult.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
PaKii94
General Manager
Posts: 8,327
And1: 4,613
Joined: Aug 22, 2013
     

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#189 » by PaKii94 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:24 am

Stratmaster wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:Eh I am indifferent about that shot at the end. Lavine has shown enough to deserve to take the shot but he wasn't having a game prior where I was confident in that shot. It was a "no no no yes" situation.

However, there were quite a few "bad" lavine moments in the game prior to that shot though that he definitely deserves critique for. And it's an aspect where he can learn to improve.

For me Lavine has gone from bad lavine 99% of the time (2019), horrible game sense, chucking up bad/tough shots
to bad lavine 60% of the time (2020) better game sense, still bad/tough shots, horrible in crunch time situations
to bad lavine 20% of the time (2021) he still struggles in pressure situations and crunch time but much less.

With Vuc it kind of reset him to 2020 Lavine but I think 2021 lavine will reemerge again once he gets comfortable.
The thing is, there are less bad Lavine moments than any other player on this team. Of course he makes mistakes. Even superstars make mistakes and take dumb shots, and Zach is an all-star, not a superstar.

As far as arrogance in shot selection, in general in the NBA, the higher the level of stardom the more long, early shots they take.

Zach is fine. But no, he ain't perfect.

The aggravating thing is the nitpicking on every freaking play with Lavine. It comes with being traded for Jimmy Butler and/or it comes from Lauri fans who think the way to make their guy look better is to trash Lavine. Not a single word about a couple really bad 3 attempts by Vuc, but they try to tear apart what was one of the most necessary and clutch shots we have seen from a bull lately (finally!)

It's just gotten really old. I really love posting on here and have been for over 10 years. But it is getting difficult.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app



Yes all players have bad moments, it's all about the ratio. This year Lavine has firmly been on the majority good vs bad (besides from the last few games). With Lavine specifically the bad moments rear it's head in crucial situations. He could be having a perfect game and then unravel it with 3-4 dumb possessions. This has happened a lot less to his credit. That's just the next stepping stone in his progression.

I'll have to go back and look at Vuc's shots but I don't remember any being egregious. Even possession to possession there is a spectrum between bad and good. There could be times where there is a better shot available but a player settles for an unoptimal shot.

That last 3 is what I would put in that category. Not the best shot but it's not the worst shot either. With Lavine, usually (not always) when it's a bad possession, it's usually a really bad possession. But again he's been shifting that balance more towards unoptimal vs straight bad.

I would say coby is the only one with much worse bad moments. He reminds me of 2019 Lavine without actual tough shot making abilities which ends up being a really bad player... Lol
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 16,437
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#190 » by Stratmaster » Tue Apr 6, 2021 4:25 am

PaKii94 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:Eh I am indifferent about that shot at the end. Lavine has shown enough to deserve to take the shot but he wasn't having a game prior where I was confident in that shot. It was a "no no no yes" situation.

However, there were quite a few "bad" lavine moments in the game prior to that shot though that he definitely deserves critique for. And it's an aspect where he can learn to improve.

For me Lavine has gone from bad lavine 99% of the time (2019), horrible game sense, chucking up bad/tough shots
to bad lavine 60% of the time (2020) better game sense, still bad/tough shots, horrible in crunch time situations
to bad lavine 20% of the time (2021) he still struggles in pressure situations and crunch time but much less.

With Vuc it kind of reset him to 2020 Lavine but I think 2021 lavine will reemerge again once he gets comfortable.
The thing is, there are less bad Lavine moments than any other player on this team. Of course he makes mistakes. Even superstars make mistakes and take dumb shots, and Zach is an all-star, not a superstar.

As far as arrogance in shot selection, in general in the NBA, the higher the level of stardom the more long, early shots they take.

Zach is fine. But no, he ain't perfect.

The aggravating thing is the nitpicking on every freaking play with Lavine. It comes with being traded for Jimmy Butler and/or it comes from Lauri fans who think the way to make their guy look better is to trash Lavine. Not a single word about a couple really bad 3 attempts by Vuc, but they try to tear apart what was one of the most necessary and clutch shots we have seen from a bull lately (finally!)

It's just gotten really old. I really love posting on here and have been for over 10 years. But it is getting difficult.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app



Yes all players have bad moments, it's all about the ratio. This year Lavine has firmly been on the majority good vs bad (besides from the last few games). With Lavine specifically the bad moments rear it's head in crucial situations. He could be having a perfect game and then unravel it with 3-4 dumb possessions. This has happened a lot less to his credit. That's just the next stepping stone in his progression.

I'll have to go back and look at Vuc's shots but I don't remember any being egregious. Even possession to possession there is a spectrum between bad and good. There could be times where there is a better shot available but a player settles for an unoptimal shot.

That last 3 is what I would put in that category. Not the best shot but it's not the worst shot either. With Lavine, usually (not always) when it's a bad possession, it's usually a really bad possession. But again he's been shifting that balance more towards unoptimal vs straight bad.

I would say coby is the only one with much worse bad moments. He reminds me of 2019 Lavine without actual tough shot making abilities which ends up being a really bad player... Lol
I should add, I am not criticizing Vuc. He and Lavine are the guys who, as you said, have earned the right to take those shots. Was just pointing out one gets hammered for it and no one even notices it when Vuc does it.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
erlim
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,406
And1: 1,598
Joined: Feb 10, 2009
 

Re: PG: Finally! 

Post#191 » by erlim » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:11 pm

Seems like the fact that we only allowed the Nets a little over an hour to practice was a big contributing factor to win.
Image

Return to Chicago Bulls