Arci > Coby

[HOTCARL_o]

I see Coby in the mold of Jamal Crawford, I remember being frustrated with him too when he played for us but turned out to have a nice long career

[MrSparkle]

The time to play Arci was 2 years ago. There’s no point in chasing that fantasy. He can barely get the ball past half court against an elite defense, and he can try all he wants, but he’s a small defensive pest, not a cog.

Coby and Lauri had miserable games, hard to watch, but IMO it still makes sense to play them. Growth is nonlinear. It’s on Coby; if he wants to have a Cam Payne-esque career, it’s his to lose. I’m surprised he continues getting down on himself and carrying the energy past the gaffe. Dude - just get back on defense and stop pouting. Terrible attitude. It’s amazing that he and Wendell shared this attitude, and it seems to occasionally spread to Patrick. They literally put their heads down after a miss or turn over and take themselves out the game for 3-5 seconds while the other team carries on.

The 2021 top-4 protection was done for a reason. Hedge for Pat/Coby/Lauri risk.

Since the Vuc trade, I am seeing it more likely that he and Lauri are actually both gone by free agency. You can upgrade both positions with the lowliest of trades. IMO it’s just a matter of squeezing out some decent assets, finding the right trades ala WCJ and Hutch/Gaff. Go all in on Pat’s and Troy’s developments.

[Finfro]

https://youtu.be/RnaLaRfqX28

I personally think Arci would have more to give to the team if he was given a proper chance. I cannot remember when he has been on court a major liability; on the contrary, I think his hustle is worth having him around and also giving him a shot at backup PG.

[coldfish]

There are times when the Bulls would be better off playing 4 on 5 than having Coby out there. This isn't hyperbole. The fact that Coby is defending a guy means that no one else comes over and Coby's defense frequently amounts to nothing. When you add in the bad shots and turnovers, Arci most definitely would be helping more than Coby.

Just doing nothing other than swinging the ball and fighting over picks would be a better contribution because the negatives wouldn't be there.

For as much as we talk about a player like Markkanen, Coby deserves a lot more grief. He has been consistently bad this year.

[sco]

I really wanted the Coby at PG experiment to work. I thought that his improved play at the end of last season and his work ethic would get him to the point where he was a neutral, at least this season. I am disappointed, especially in his defense. He seems slower and less aggressive. I am ok if we want to waste more time with him to see if he can become a better bench SG, but we need Arci or Temple handling the ball on offense for the rest of the season and relegate Coby to being a catch-and-shoot guy going forward.

[DuckIII]

There are times when the Bulls would be better off playing 4 on 5 than having Coby out there. This isn't hyperbole. The fact that Coby is defending a guy means that no one else comes over and Coby's defense frequently amounts to nothing. When you add in the bad shots and turnovers, Arci most definitely would be helping more than Coby.

Just doing nothing other than swinging the ball and fighting over picks would be a better contribution because the negatives wouldn't be there.

For as much as we talk about a player like Markkanen, Coby deserves a lot more grief. He has been consistently bad this year.

Coby gets more rope for a few reasons, fair or unfair (probably a mix of both):

1. I think a large majority of us agree, and agreed before the season even started, that he was not and never will be a point guard and that due to that his entire season has basically been an experiment.

2. He’s barely played more than a rookie season worth of games due to COVID.

3. He’s not up for a contract soon.

4. I think most of us never saw the potential upside in Coby that we not only saw in Lauri as potential, but in fact saw it reached albeit for limited stretches which raised expectations.

[sco]

There are times when the Bulls would be better off playing 4 on 5 than having Coby out there. This isn't hyperbole. The fact that Coby is defending a guy means that no one else comes over and Coby's defense frequently amounts to nothing. When you add in the bad shots and turnovers, Arci most definitely would be helping more than Coby.

Just doing nothing other than swinging the ball and fighting over picks would be a better contribution because the negatives wouldn't be there.

For as much as we talk about a player like Markkanen, Coby deserves a lot more grief. He has been consistently bad this year.

Coby gets more rope for a few reasons, fair or unfair (probably a mix of both):

1. I think a large majority of us agree, and agreed before the season even started, that he was not and never will be a point guard and that due to that his entire season has basically been an experiment.

2. He’s barely played more than a rookie season worth of games due to COVID.

3. He’s not up for a contract soon.

4. I think most of us never saw the potential upside in Coby that we not only saw in Lauri as potential, but in fact saw it reached albeit for limited stretches which raised expectations.

If this was the old regime, I'd agree, but this is a new regime who has shown me that they aren't waiting around for old regime guys to improve. The only reason I think Coby is still here is that his first half of season performance pooped all over what little trade value he had left. I see him possibly improving to a 6th man or marginal starting SG for a good team, but I don't see him getting there in the next 2 seasons.

I'm hoping they trade him this offseason.

[DuckIII]

I was unclear, sco. I was referring to fans giving him some slack. I agree the FO isn’t going to hesitate trading any old regime players.

[bad knees]

I am ready to go with Arch over Coby.

I also think that we should be looking to add a PG who can do the things that we need done. For example, why is Yogi Ferrell signing a 10 day contract with the Clippers and not with us? We ought to open up a roster spot (hello/goodbye Cris) and conduct a tryout for the best available PG out there.

[Wingy]

I'm guessing there are probably quite a few veteran, journeymen...maybe barely ever got a shot guys out there who could come in w/the sole mission of not #@$@ing up, taking care of the ball, and just getting it to other guys. Guys who are more talented than Arci, but not a crazy spaz like Coby. Problem is Coby was a 7th overall pick, and we're trying to avoid further diminishment of that investment. Because of that, this will be a problem until next season. Arci will remain firmly behind Coby for that reason alone.

[sco]

I'm guessing there are probably quite a few veteran, journeymen...maybe barely ever got a shot guys out there who could come in w/the sole mission of not #@$@ing up, taking care of the ball, and just getting it to other guys. Guys who are more talented than Arci, but not a crazy spaz like Coby. Problem is Coby was a 7th overall pick, and we're trying to avoid further diminishment of that investment. Because of that, this will be a problem until next season. Arci will remain firmly behind Coby for that reason alone.

I agree with you. I gotta think that Coby has basically no value (ie a 2nd round pick) right now. The question is does management want to increase Coby's trade value by playing him or the team's play-off chances. He is single-handedly putting the whole season at risk with his poor PG play. I get the fragile 21 year-old psyche thing, but really, his teammates have to be groaning behind the scenes too. They've got to see it.

[MrSparkle]

The most frustrating thing is seeing a young player's self-frustration over-exaggerated, as absurd as it sounds. But really it's a common trait in 18-25yos who don't have a true sense of their actual productive worth; they have an over-inflated view, and think that they "should" be shooting better, defending better, getting more lucky breaks. It's better to remove that part of the ego and basically focus on the task at hand with relative poise, and not wear your heart on your sleeve.

I'd rather see the guy not cry about fouls and put his head down after errors. It's amazing to me that he and Wendell were cut from the same clothe; and Pat (to a much lesser extent) seems to have caught the habit too. Likely, these guys all impressed and influenced each other. Body language goes a long way. Putting your head down after a brick or turnover is simply the worst thing you can do.

Compare to Theis who gets some of the worst calls and lays some nasty bricks; yet he just trucks on and tries to play hard.

[sco]

The most frustrating thing is seeing a young player's self-frustration over-exaggerated, as absurd as it sounds. But really it's a common trait in 18-25yos who don't have a true sense of their actual productive worth; they have an over-inflated view, and think that they "should" be shooting better, defending better, getting more lucky breaks. It's better to remove that part of the ego and basically focus on the task at hand with relative poise, and not wear your heart on your sleeve.

I'd rather see the guy not cry about fouls and put his head down after errors. It's amazing to me that he and Wendell were cut from the same clothe; and Pat (to a much lesser extent) seems to have caught the habit too. Likely, these guys all impressed and influenced each other. Body language goes a long way. Putting your head down after a brick or turnover is simply the worst thing you can do.

Compare to Theis who gets some of the worst calls and lays some nasty bricks; yet he just trucks on and tries to play hard.

Meh...I have to guess that 70% of guys who are gonna get $10M+/yr 2nd contracts have a good sense of it by the end of their 2nd season. I would also think that 1/2 of the #7 picks, think they'll be one of those guys after being drafted #7. That's a lot riding on the difference between good and great. I think Coby is a smart dude and is probably now just coming to grips with a scenario where he's a career bench player...battling for the MLE dream. Despite my being annoyed by his comments, Jabari Parker probably was speaking for the majority of NBA players when he said guys don't get paid for defense.

[HearshotKDS]

I find the argument that Coby needs to develop his PG skills to be an effective combo guard in the future interesting. From watching him play and looking at his "shooting" splits, I would suggest his "SG skills" need an equal amount of work. I'm not sure theres a place in the NBA for guards who score at 52.7% TS and 34% from 3, and dont really bring much outside of scoring. My guess is Donovan hates playing all of the backup PGs but prefers the 1/5 games Cobys shot is on and he brings much needed efficient volume scoring (not to mention a chance to develop) over the others who he sees as career G league guys.

[DunkenDunk]

The whole question about Arci or Coby is crazy and does not make any sense. Real question should be whether Arci > Sato. Coby should be out of from the PG discussions as the only thing to wonder when he brings the ball is whether he will shoot 3 pointer or drive to paint and get knocked by the rim protector.

Coby is pretty good shooting quard that I can see competing the play time with Zach that is pretty similar type of player with Coby. (Zach just better at this time but that's understandable as he has had 4-5 years more time to get better).

I would put the players to following groups and then select the 5 players by using these. (Some players can be in multiple positions, first one in certain position would be in startup)

Center: Vuci, Theis
PG: Sarcevic, Arci, Temple, Zach
SG: Zach, Coby, Brown
PF: Thad, PW, Markkanen, Aminu
SF: Markkanen, PW, Brown, Valentine

[madvillian]

He's awful. You can't play him at SG either. He's nothing more than an irrational confidence guy at this point. I thought he was going to be a valuable gunner after his rookie year, maybe like a Trae Young light, but he has a higher TO%, a worse TS%, a worse FT rate on LESS usage this year. Talk about a step back. And that's offensively. His defense is horrific. Probably the worst on ball defender the Bulls have had at guard in the last 5 years, and he has quite a bit of competition. He has short arms, no lateral quickness, no explosion, just a below average athlete with below average will.

People say he has some "dog" in him: I don't see it. I see a guy that plays distracted, lacks focus, lacks drive and that plays stupid. He jacks shots at the worst times, he loses his man on the simplest high PnR setups and for some stupid ass reason he loves to cherry pick and steal rebounds from the bigs, maybe he thinks it pads his stats. He should be trying to get out in transition not hanging around the defensive glass. A stupid player in all areas.

[TheJordanRule]

Archi doesn't do a whole lot, but he won't hurt you. On offense, Archi picks his spots and knows exactly how to spread the ball around. He won't score without being open, but he also won't force up low IQ shots or cough up the ball. It's a significant upgrade over Coby because Coby's turnovers and ball hogging lead to big swings in momentum and I can't imagine that they are good for team chemistry either. On defense, Archi does what he can with his small frame and ability to read the opposition's passes. Coby hurts us on both ends on nights when his shot isn't falling. And his shot usually isn't falling. I'll take a zero over a net negative. I'm not into Archi more than Coby as a prospect, but Duck's right. We're aiming for the post season now, for the much greater purpose of landing decent free agents here for a change.

[TheJordanRule]

He's awful. You can't play him at SG either. He's nothing more than an irrational confidence guy at this point. I thought he was going to be a valuable gunner after his rookie year, maybe like a Trae Young light, but he has a higher TO%, a worse TS%, a worse FT rate on LESS usage this year. Talk about a step back. And that's offensively. His defense is horrific. Probably the worst on ball defender the Bulls have had at guard in the last 5 years, and he has quite a bit of competition. He has short arms, no lateral quickness, no explosion, just a below average athlete with below average will.

People say he has some "dog" in him: I don't see it. I see a guy that plays distracted, lacks focus, lacks drive and that plays stupid. He jacks shots at the worst times, he loses his man on the simplest high PnR setups and for some stupid ass reason he loves to cherry pick and steal rebounds from the bigs, maybe he thinks it pads his stats. He should be trying to get out in transition not hanging around the defensive glass. A stupid player in all areas.

I largely agree with you on your assessment of Coby's flaws. I honestly don't think he should be featured on the roster right now as anything more than a 9th man. I still respect his potential since he's super young, and he's being asked to learn a brand new position in the world's most competitive basketball league. But he's gotta ride the pine. Bring greater effort and effectiveness in practice if you want to play Coby!

[bearadonisdna]

arci is better than sato too.
right now the switch to sato is whats hurting the bulls the most. cant blame lauri he is benched.
sato, sato, sato equals losing losing losing.
maybe you guys will see it eventually.

[jordanwilliams6]

Serious question, but I wonder how much psychologically work Garpax did on our draftees? They are seem to have an awfully weak mindset which severely affects there performance when things aren’t working for them. I’m talking Coby, Lauri & WCJ. They all seem like complete mental midgets on the court.