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Daniel Theis Needs To Start

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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#61 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:27 pm

HOTCARL_o wrote:I’m for putting Theis and Brown in the starting lineup and have Thad and Sato come off the bench. Vuc/Theis/PW/TBJ/Lavine . Pretty much the starting lineup would be team AK and the 2nd unit would be team GarPax.


Not enough spacing, unfortunately. Brown isn't a proven 3 point shooter, even if he's shooting 36% for the Bulls.

But starting Theis and Brown does address another issue - the Bulls are SOFT. The effort isn't there, the aggression isn't there. Some of that is with Lavine, but he showed aggression even last night, though too late. At the same time, he's playing through injury. Vuc isn't soft, per se. Thad's aged 10 years in one season, it seems. Sato, Pat, Lauri..... SOFT. Pat has some hope because he's a rook.

Image

In the interim, it's time to add grime around Lavine and Vuc - whether it's Brown, Green, Archi, Aminu (health depending, obviously).

Enough of the weak-nonsense. It's time for some aggression.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#62 » by chefo » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:39 pm

You need not just Theis in, but as the 5, and then move Vuc to the 4 on D, and then start Lauri at the 3... Lots to change around, don't even know who the 4th starter should be (Sato looks to have lost his mojo after the trade). Then, heavy doses of Zach, Lauri and Vuc on O... balls to the wall, bully ball, high lows, P&R, off-ball. Perhaps Archi as starting PG, as was suggested, even though he doesn't move the needle, but at least he won't embarrass you too badly most nights.

The Bulls really, really need a 3&D G/F, and a 3&D PG, both veterans--like not ancient Temples, so to speak.

Put Lauri back in the starting unit because without him going from 20 touches to his 40+ pre-trade, this team doesn't have enough firepower to beat anybody. Nobody else on the roster is a good enough offensive player outside of Vuc and Zach to give you an efficient 18-20 points. If your D is Swiss cheese, might as well try to outscore people.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#63 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:44 pm

Anyway, I'm also concerned that the Bulls are playing too slow - particularly on defense.

Having some more thought, I think the Bulls should use the following lineups:

Starters: 1-Sato (quick trigger if he's playing soft); 2-Lavine; 3-Brown; 4-Pat (quick trigger if he's playing soft); 5- Vuc

"Bench mob for grime" (though not hockey, and with one exception discussed below): 1- Archi; 2- J.Green; 3- Temple (health dependent); 4- Aminu; 5- Theis/Thad.

Then the exception in terms of the "bench mob" approach would be to give looks to Lauri at the 4 or 5 and Coby or Denzel at the 1, 2 or in the case of Denzel 3, to see if they have it going on offense that night. 10 minutes max of trial time - if they are playing hard and have it going - keep rolling with them - if not - back to the bench. But only have one of those guys out there with more "grime" based 2nd units who will at least try hard --- making up for lack of familiarity with effort, fresher legs, and maybe some defense and transition baskets.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#64 » by MGB8 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:46 pm

chefo wrote:You need not just Theis in, but as the 5, and then move Vuc to the 4 on D, and then start Lauri at the 3... Lots to change around, don't even know who the 4th starter should be (Sato looks to have lost his mojo after the trade). Then, heavy doses of Zach, Lauri and Vuc on O... balls to the wall, bully ball, high lows, P&R, off-ball. Perhaps Archi as starting PG, as was suggested, even though he doesn't move the needle, but at least he won't embarrass you too badly most nights.

The Bulls really, really need a 3&D G/F, and a 3&D PG, both veterans--like not ancient Temples, so to speak.

Put Lauri back in the starting unit because without him going from 20 touches to his 40+ pre-trade, this team doesn't have enough firepower to beat anybody. Nobody else on the roster is a good enough offensive player outside of Vuc and Zach to give you an efficient 18-20 points. If your D is Swiss cheese, might as well try to outscore people.


NO. Just no.

Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team. A guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play.

He is the softest player on a soft team.

The approach with him should be simple - a bench player who if he has it going and is playing hard gets to play more - if not, he can sit his tissue paper behind back on the bench.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#65 » by chefo » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:23 pm

MGB8 wrote:
chefo wrote:You need not just Theis in, but as the 5, and then move Vuc to the 4 on D, and then start Lauri at the 3... Lots to change around, don't even know who the 4th starter should be (Sato looks to have lost his mojo after the trade). Then, heavy doses of Zach, Lauri and Vuc on O... balls to the wall, bully ball, high lows, P&R, off-ball. Perhaps Archi as starting PG, as was suggested, even though he doesn't move the needle, but at least he won't embarrass you too badly most nights.

The Bulls really, really need a 3&D G/F, and a 3&D PG, both veterans--like not ancient Temples, so to speak.

Put Lauri back in the starting unit because without him going from 20 touches to his 40+ pre-trade, this team doesn't have enough firepower to beat anybody. Nobody else on the roster is a good enough offensive player outside of Vuc and Zach to give you an efficient 18-20 points. If your D is Swiss cheese, might as well try to outscore people.


NO. Just no.

Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team. A guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play.

He is the softest player on a soft team.

The approach with him should be simple - a bench player who if he has it going and is playing hard gets to play more - if not, he can sit his tissue paper behind back on the bench.


I don't care that he's "soft". I do care that he's the third most talented player on the team, and if you're getting a doughnut out of your third best player (which is close to what they're getting), you're doing something very, very wrong. Is he going to be worse than Pat with the starters? No. Is he going to be worse than Thad? No.

Odds are, he'll be better. As I've written a bunch and don't want to repeat at length again--IMO, the Bulls winning was contingent on finding a way not to lose his production when the new faces showed up... which is exactly what ended up happening anyways, by the coach's decision. Hell, coach D came out and said it directly during a presser. Lauri got Bogansed, and not in the "I get 6 minutes a half starting but don't get to touch the ball more than 5 times" but more so in the "I get 8minutes a half, playing with Coby as my PG."

We're not talented enough to let our third best player rot on the bench, picking his nose. I don't care about office politics or who was picked in the draft by whom-I only care about how the team plays and does that translate into winning. Right now, we have not been able to score enough to overcome our putrid D... and again, with our third best scorer warming his bench seat for 30 minutes a game, we probably won't be able to going forward.

You've got to use what you've got, and when you don't have that much to begin with, throwing away talent you do have is IMO idiotic. If they want him gone, trade his posterior in the off-season. But, right now, he's still the third most potent scorer on a team that has looked putrid with him sitting. Maybe it doesn't work. Entirely possible. But the status quo is utterly unacceptable and a big effin' failure for everybody involved.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#66 » by sco » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:32 pm

So what do folks think it will take to sign Theis? Wouldn't it be ironic if he costs more to keep than Lauri? We can go over the cap to keep him right?
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#67 » by MGB8 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:35 pm

sco wrote:So what do folks think it will take to sign Theis? Wouldn't it be ironic if he costs more to keep than Lauri? We can go over the cap to keep him right?


We should have his rights (so that we can go over the cap). He has a 9.5M cap hold.

I doubt that he costs more than Lauri, if only because Lauri is young, and Theis isn't. Theis pretty much is what he is - a very nice role player. Lauri teases "2nd offensive option" (and for some people, "1st offensive option) potential.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#68 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:39 pm

The OP's wish came true. How about he now write that he wants the Bulls to get the 1st pick in the draft lottery?
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#69 » by jordanwilliams6 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:56 pm

sco wrote:So what do folks think it will take to sign Theis? Wouldn't it be ironic if he costs more to keep than Lauri? We can go over the cap to keep him right?

Realistically, he should cost more than Lauri in an open market but he won't. It's so abundantly clear that Theis contributes so much more to winning basketball than Lauri does. If we can get him at $10-$12 mil then I'd be all over that.

I'd be happy starting him at the 4 for the next few years because I think he fits well with Zach & Vuc. Hopefully PWill develops into a genuine positive impact player next season with above average defense and it just leaves us with a massive hole at PG spot.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#70 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:14 pm

MGB8 wrote:NO. Just no.

Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team.

You can't possibly believe that. Either you're the biggest Lauri hater in the world or your basketball knowledge is...lacking. If you were being sarcastic then I apologize for not picking up on it.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#71 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:35 pm

sco wrote:So what do folks think it will take to sign Theis? Wouldn't it be ironic if he costs more to keep than Lauri? We can go over the cap to keep him right?

The way I look at it is, Thad makes $13M and Sato makes $10M. Theis is better than Sato and about on par with Thad, though you could make a case for either one. He makes $5M right now and he's nearly 30, so I imagine he'll want to cash in while he still can. I suspect it will take $10-13M to keep him. That seems like a bit of an overpay. I'd be more comfortable in the $7-9M range, but why would he accept that if he gets offered $10M+? It is a weak free agent class after all.

The thing is, Theis, Thad, and Lauri's future with the Bulls is likely dependent on what happens with them as individuals. If we waive Thad, we'll almost definitely keep Theis (and maybe even Lauri) even if we have to pay him $10M+. If we keep Thad, I imagine keeping Theis will depend on his willingness to sign a more team friendly contract under $10M. You don't want $50ish mil of your cap space tied up between 3 players who play the same positions. As for Lauri, I think he's as good as gone, but if we were to retain him it would only happen if we got rid of at least one of Theis/Thad, if not both. No way in hell we commit that much money to 4 frontcourt players.

I would say of the 3, Thad has the highest chance of returning next season (75%). Theis is the next most likely (50%), and Lauri is the least likely (<25%).
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#72 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:37 pm

Ice Man wrote:The OP's wish came true. How about he now write that he wants the Bulls to get the 1st pick in the draft lottery?

Or at the very least can he wish for anyone other than PWill to start at SF?
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#73 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:56 pm

jordanwilliams6 wrote:
sco wrote:So what do folks think it will take to sign Theis? Wouldn't it be ironic if he costs more to keep than Lauri? We can go over the cap to keep him right?

Realistically, he should cost more than Lauri in an open market but he won't. It's so abundantly clear that Theis contributes so much more to winning basketball than Lauri does.

It really depends on what a team needs. Given that we have Zach and especially Vuch, what Lauri brings (scoring/shooting) isn't as valuable to us as what Theis brings (defense/rebounding). If we didn't have Vuch, keeping Lauri would clearly take precedent over Theis, but since we do have Vuch, the opposite is true.

For a team like the Spurs, Lauri is a much more attractive option than Theis because they already have players who do what Theis does (Jakob Poeltl) but lack players who do what Lauri does. On paper, Lauri would be an ideal replacement for LaMarcus Aldridge. In general, teams are always going to prioritize committing long term money to a 24 year old scoring/shooting 7 footer with upside who has flashed 2nd option potential over a 30 year old undersized hustle big who has likely peaked.

Scoring/shooting will always be a premium in the NBA. This shouldn't be surprising at all, especially in today's league with the way scoring/shooting is emphasized and defense is de-emphasized. Defense, rebounding, hustle play, etc. is just much easier to come by than scoring/shooting, and that reflects in contract amounts. Even if you believe Theis is better and contributes more to winning basketball than Lauri, there's no denying that Lauri's skillset is much harder to come by than Theis'.

A good comparison is Taj and Niko. I think most people would say Taj was the better player over their careers in terms of contributing to winning basketball, but Niko made more than half as much money as Taj did in less than half as many seasons because his skillset is more sought after than Taj's.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#74 » by Michael Jackson » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:14 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
jordanwilliams6 wrote:
sco wrote:So what do folks think it will take to sign Theis? Wouldn't it be ironic if he costs more to keep than Lauri? We can go over the cap to keep him right?

Realistically, he should cost more than Lauri in an open market but he won't. It's so abundantly clear that Theis contributes so much more to winning basketball than Lauri does.

It really depends on what a team needs. Given that we have Zach and especially Vuch, what Lauri brings (scoring/shooting) isn't as valuable to us as what Theis brings (defense/rebounding). If we didn't have Vuch, keeping Lauri would clearly take precedent over Theis, but since we do have Vuch, the opposite is true.

For a team like the Spurs, Lauri is a much more attractive option than Theis because they already have players who do what Theis does (Jakob Poeltl) but lack players who do what Lauri does. On paper, Lauri would be an ideal replacement for LaMarcus Aldridge. In general, teams are always going to prioritize committing long term money to a 24 year old scoring/shooting 7 footer with upside who has flashed 2nd option potential over a 30 year old undersized hustle big who has likely peaked.

Scoring/shooting will always be a premium in the NBA. This shouldn't be surprising at all, especially in today's league with the way scoring/shooting is emphasized and defense is de-emphasized. Defense, rebounding, hustle play, etc. is just much easier to come by than scoring/shooting, and that reflects in contract amounts. Even if you believe Theis is better and contributes more to winning basketball than Lauri, there's no denying that Lauri's skillset is much harder to come by than Theis'.

A good comparison is Taj and Niko. I think most people would say Taj was the better player over their careers in terms of contributing to winning basketball, but Niko made more than half as much money as Taj did in less than half as many seasons because his skillset is more sought after than Taj's.



So a sign and trade for Demarr for Lauri is what would make sense in that scenario?
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#75 » by MGB8 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:30 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:NO. Just no.

Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team.

You can't possibly believe that. Either you're the biggest Lauri hater in the world or your basketball knowledge is...lacking. If you were being sarcastic then I apologize for not picking up on it.


Um, how about you don't excerpt a portion of a post of mine without noting that you modified it (and eliminating the context)? In other words, don't accuse someone who likely knows a good bit more than you for "lacking" knowledge while using deceptive editing to do so. The entire post was:

NO. Just no.

Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team. A guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play.

He is the softest player on a soft team.

The approach with him should be simple - a bench player who if he has it going and is playing hard gets to play more - if not, he can sit his tissue paper behind back on the bench.


It was in response to the suggestion that Lauri should be put back in the starting lineup.

The point wasn't that Lauri was causing the Bulls to play badly - something quite clear in context. The point was that Lauri should not be put back into the starting lineup because he was/is "the softest player on a soft team" --- "[a] guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play."

Rewarding that lack of mental toughness and lack of consistent effort, rather than letting him earn a starting role, is exactly the opposite of what needed to be done. Thankfully, Donovan didn't listen because we've seen a bit more effort from Lauri from the bench lately - and that's what's needed, not just for him, but for the entire team. For players to earn their time and role based on how hard they work and play, and how effective it is.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#76 » by MrSparkle » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:57 pm

I dunno. We're Zach-less and in a situation where winning the lottery is much better than the #10 play-in. I'm all about starting Lauri at SF at this point; boost his value if it works out, lose games if it doesn't.

On the other hand, Temple seems to make Coby play infinitely better.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#77 » by MrSparkle » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:59 pm

BTW DeRozan's defense is not going to work with Zach and Vuc. We need defense at the spot. It will be absurd if we go with DD.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#78 » by GoBlue72391 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:14 pm

MGB8 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:NO. Just no.

Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team.

You can't possibly believe that. Either you're the biggest Lauri hater in the world or your basketball knowledge is...lacking. If you were being sarcastic then I apologize for not picking up on it.


Um, how about you don't excerpt a portion of a post of mine without noting that you modified it (and eliminating the context)? In other words, don't accuse someone who likely knows a good bit more than you for "lacking" knowledge while using deceptive editing to do so. The entire post was:

Because it's irrelevant to the part I'm discussing. If I'm discussing a chapter in a book I'm going to quote that chapter, not the entire book. No amount of context could rationalize a statement like "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." I'm not even going to address the "I'm smarter than you" bit.
It was in response to the suggestion that Lauri should be put back in the starting lineup.

The point wasn't that Lauri was causing the Bulls to play badly - something quite clear in context. The point was that Lauri should not be put back into the starting lineup because he was/is "the softest player on a soft team" --- "[a] guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play."

First of all PWill is the softest player on the team, not Lauri, though he is a close second. You can try to backtrack and explain it away by saying "all I meant was he shouldn't start", but pinning all of our team's issues on a single player is just ridiculous. You flat out said "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team" but now you're trying to say you didn't mean it like that. How do you expect anyone to interpret that statement? The context doesn't help. I don't care if you think he should or should not be re-inserted into the starting lineup. There's valid arguments to be made for either case, so believing Lauri should remain on the bench is not what I'm concerned with.

Rewarding that lack of mental toughness and lack of consistent effort, rather than letting him earn a starting role, is exactly the opposite of what needed to be done. Thankfully, Donovan didn't listen because we've seen a bit more effort from Lauri from the bench lately - and that's what's needed, not just for him, but for the entire team. For players to earn their time and role based on how hard they work and play, and how effective it is.

But that's what we've been doing with PWill all season long, yet you chose to single out Lauri as the "symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." For the record, I would be saying the same thing if you had used any other player in place of Lauri for the "symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." Even if you thought Lauri was the worst player in the league, and I'm not claiming you do, it would still be ridiculous to blame an entire team's problems on one player.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#79 » by MGB8 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:46 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Um, how about you don't excerpt a portion of a post of mine without noting that you modified it (and eliminating the context)? In other words, don't accuse someone who likely knows a good bit more than you for "lacking" knowledge while using deceptive editing to do so. The entire post was:

Because it's irrelevant to the part I'm discussing. If I'm discussing a chapter in a book I'm going to quote that chapter, not the entire book. No amount of context could rationalize a statement like "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." I'm not even going to address the "I'm smarter than you" bit.
It was in response to the suggestion that Lauri should be put back in the starting lineup.

The point wasn't that Lauri was causing the Bulls to play badly - something quite clear in context. The point was that Lauri should not be put back into the starting lineup because he was/is "the softest player on a soft team" --- "[a] guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play."

First of all PWill is the softest player on the team, not Lauri, though he is a close second. You can try to backtrack and explain it away by saying "all I meant was he shouldn't start", but pinning all of our team's issues on a single player is just ridiculous. You flat out said "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team" but now you're trying to say you didn't mean it like that. How do you expect anyone to interpret that statement? The context doesn't help. I don't care if you think he should or should not be re-inserted into the starting lineup. There's valid arguments to be made for either case, so believing Lauri should remain on the bench is not what I'm concerned with.

Rewarding that lack of mental toughness and lack of consistent effort, rather than letting him earn a starting role, is exactly the opposite of what needed to be done. Thankfully, Donovan didn't listen because we've seen a bit more effort from Lauri from the bench lately - and that's what's needed, not just for him, but for the entire team. For players to earn their time and role based on how hard they work and play, and how effective it is.

But that's what we've been doing with PWill all season long, yet you chose to single out Lauri as the "symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." For the record, I would be saying the same thing if you had used any other player in place of Lauri for the "symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." Even if you thought Lauri was the worst player in the league, and I'm not claiming you do, it would still be ridiculous to blame an entire team's problems on one player.


You deliberately slashed a quote without noting that you had edited it in order to create a straw man by engaging in a statement outside of its context. That's actually a reportable violation on RealGM - there was even a recent thread from the lead moderators on it on the general forum. I mention that not because I would do that (lame), but to underscore the point that it's widely understood to be deceptive misconduct.

The context was clear --- both in terms of what was being responded to and the whole of the response.

If it wasn't, then you wouldn't have felt the need to eliminate that context and thus enable your pot shot --- for whatever emotional reason you felt the need to take that deceptive tact.

Meanwhile, as to Pat Williams being mentally soft - there are huge differences between him and Lauri - that point to Lauri being a much bigger "soft" issue.

First, Pat is a 19 year old rookie, not a 3rd year player.

Second, Pat was never being asked to be a primary offensive player this season, while Lauri was; Pat may not have exceeded his role, but Lauri shrank from his.

Third, while Pat's production has fluctuated, his effort level has been pretty steady. The fact that a guy who was a college reserve isn't a spectacular as a rookie after being thrust into a starting role as a "glue guy" defensive role player doesn't make him soft.

Lauri, on the other hand, you see huge swings not just in production but in effort, depending on gameplan and whether other folks were getting him involved.

So Pat's issue isn't being "soft" so much as a lack of alpha-type aggression. Lauri also lacks that --- but has an extra failing of seeing his effort impacted by things he doesn't really control. WCJ has a similar issue.
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Re: Daniel Theis Needs To Start 

Post#80 » by GoBlue72391 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:34 pm

MGB8 wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Um, how about you don't excerpt a portion of a post of mine without noting that you modified it (and eliminating the context)? In other words, don't accuse someone who likely knows a good bit more than you for "lacking" knowledge while using deceptive editing to do so. The entire post was:

Because it's irrelevant to the part I'm discussing. If I'm discussing a chapter in a book I'm going to quote that chapter, not the entire book. No amount of context could rationalize a statement like "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." I'm not even going to address the "I'm smarter than you" bit.
It was in response to the suggestion that Lauri should be put back in the starting lineup.

The point wasn't that Lauri was causing the Bulls to play badly - something quite clear in context. The point was that Lauri should not be put back into the starting lineup because he was/is "the softest player on a soft team" --- "[a] guy whose effort is primarily dependent on how it's going that night or what role he is being allowed to play."

First of all PWill is the softest player on the team, not Lauri, though he is a close second. You can try to backtrack and explain it away by saying "all I meant was he shouldn't start", but pinning all of our team's issues on a single player is just ridiculous. You flat out said "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team" but now you're trying to say you didn't mean it like that. How do you expect anyone to interpret that statement? The context doesn't help. I don't care if you think he should or should not be re-inserted into the starting lineup. There's valid arguments to be made for either case, so believing Lauri should remain on the bench is not what I'm concerned with.

Rewarding that lack of mental toughness and lack of consistent effort, rather than letting him earn a starting role, is exactly the opposite of what needed to be done. Thankfully, Donovan didn't listen because we've seen a bit more effort from Lauri from the bench lately - and that's what's needed, not just for him, but for the entire team. For players to earn their time and role based on how hard they work and play, and how effective it is.

But that's what we've been doing with PWill all season long, yet you chose to single out Lauri as the "symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." For the record, I would be saying the same thing if you had used any other player in place of Lauri for the "symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team." Even if you thought Lauri was the worst player in the league, and I'm not claiming you do, it would still be ridiculous to blame an entire team's problems on one player.


You deliberately slashed a quote without noting that you had edited it in order to create a straw man by engaging in a statement outside of its context. That's actually a reportable violation on RealGM - there was even a recent thread from the lead moderators on it on the general forum. I mention that not because I would do that (lame), but to underscore the point that it's widely understood to be deceptive misconduct.

Like I said, I don't believe the rest of the post was relevant to the one point I wanted to discuss. I read it multiple times, and as far as I'm concerned the context didn't help clarify anything regarding the "Lauri is a symptom and cause of everything wrong with the present Bulls team" statement. Only after you responded to me did you clarify your meaning with that statement, because that meaning and context wasn't there to begin with.

I didn't do it to be intentionally misleading or to take things out of context, I did it to simplify my response instead of having ginormous blobs of irrelevant text to wade through (like this current response). I don't feel what I did took anything out of context, but you obviously do. That wasn't my intention. If you feel I violated RealGM rules then by all means you should report me, because that is the appropriate response to rule breaking.

The context was clear --- both in terms of what was being responded to and the whole of the response.

I vehemently disagree.

If it wasn't, then you wouldn't have felt the need to eliminate that context and thus enable your pot shot --- for whatever emotional reason you felt the need to take that deceptive tact.

Like I said, I did it to simplify my response. As I type this response, I'm having to sift through huge chunks of text that are no longer relevant to what we're discussing. I don't see it as a potshot or an emotional response, I see it as an appropriate response to anyone blaming any single player for an entire team's problems. Obviously you've since clarified that wasn't what you meant, but again, that wasn't apparent until you responded to me.

Meanwhile, as to Pat Williams being mentally soft - there are huge differences between him and Lauri - that point to Lauri being a much bigger "soft" issue.

I disagree. As timid, passive, and unaggressive as Lauri indeed is, he's still considerably more aggressive and confident in his play than PWill is. Even when Lauri was a rookie, he was much more aggressive than PWill is as a rookie right now. If anything, Lauri is less aggressive now than he was as a rookie. Lauri has at least shown flashes of aggression and confidence for extended lengths of time. PWill hasn't.

First, Pat is a 19 year old rookie, not a 3rd year player.

I understand and that is relevant to an extent, but like I said, when Lauri was a rookie he was much more aggressive than PWill is as a rookie right now.

Second, Pat was never being asked to be a primary offensive player this season, while Lauri was; Pat may not have exceeded his role, but Lauri shrank from his.

The first part is a valid point, but the second is not. When Lauri was given the touches of a top 2 option he produced. The stats reflect that. Lauri shrinks when his role is reduced, not the other way around. As for PWill, he's basically been Keith Bogans this season. That's far more than simply "not exceeding his role." Even with his limited role as the 5th option in the starting lineup, he's still been incredibly passive.

Third, while Pat's production has fluctuated, his effort level has been pretty steady.

His production hasn't fluctuated at all really. Just look at his monthly splits. They've all been between 9, 4 and 1 to 11, 6, and 1 with a virtually identical TS%. The one exception is this month where his scoring and rebounding have taken a dip to 7.1 and 3.8 but his APG and TS% have taken a slight tick up. He's pretty much been the same player all season. Very consistent actually. As for his effort level, it's been piss poor pretty much all season long. Bordering on shameful.

The fact that a guy who was a college reserve isn't a spectacular as a rookie after being thrust into a starting role as a "glue guy" defensive role player doesn't make him soft.

You're absolutely correct. The things he does on the court, or rather doesn't do, is what makes him soft.

Lauri, on the other hand, you see huge swings not just in production but in effort, depending on gameplan and whether other folks were getting him involved.

I agree. You won't hear any argument from me on this one, other than (very) recently I think he's been better with his effort level regardless of his offensive role.

So Pat's issue isn't being "soft" so much as a lack of alpha-type aggression. Lauri also lacks that --- but has an extra failing of seeing his effort impacted by things he doesn't really control. WCJ has a similar issue.

That's just a different way to describe the same thing IMO. At least Lauri shows a high effort level on occasion and has been doing so recently. PWill on the other hand has put in a consistently poor effort all season long.

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