Stratmaster wrote:dougthonus wrote:I'm pretty much okay throwing all those guys out of the list. I'm not sure that any of those guys are elite scorers. Probably Luka is the one guy I'd be hesitant on and gets back to the total offensive package he provides more so than pure scoring.
The list left:
Jokic
Kawhi
Giannis
Lillard
Curry
Embid
Harden
Irving
LeBron
LaVine
Towns
Durant
When I look at that list, I see a bunch of elite scorers and for the most part think they're all in a different tier than the guys I'm leaving out on your list.
I don't see Irving on that list and of course LBJ is just getting too old.
It is also tough comparing bigs to Guards.
Vuc's main issue is not getting to the free throw line. And on that subject If Zach got the calls most of the guys on that list get he would be completely unstoppable. No way they let 3 defenders hack away at most of those guys.
Back to point...my opinion is that whatever you want to call Zach and Vuc the Bulls have 2 great scorers, one of whom can definitely be the top scorer on a contending team. What they don't have is the complimentary players around them.
I expect you will agree to disagree. Either way thanks for a thoughtful and respectful discussion.
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Certainly I'm not suggesting the above list generated by 2 stats I threw out without even researching is perfect. Just saying that it feels relatively good to me. I agree with you on Irving and Towns is another one I'm not sure is really an elite scorer either, but for the most part, the above list is nearly a flawless representation of whom I feel the real needle moving scorers are.
The guys who can get you wins by themselves even with lousy casts.
I think looking at Zach/Vuc as just scorers is a bit limited. If you look at the guys on this list, most of them are also really good defensively. If even one of these guys was as good on defense as on offense, then I think we might be cooking with gas, but their overall impact is a lot more limited because of that.
I'm pretty high on Zach overall and while he makes this list, I'm not yet sure he belongs, but I could see him getting there potentially. I've talked about him being a potential Harden like player, a guy whom maybe isn't so good on defense, but his offense becomes so unstoppable it doesn't matter. If he does become that type of player then I think Vuc is the absolute wrong cetner to put near him. You'd want someone much more like a Gobert, someone that is a complete defensive anchor and can just finish at the rim.
We'll see how it goes. I'm pretty high on Zach, I've said he's a true max player.
I'm pretty low on Vuc relative to what we gave up to get him. I do like Vuc, really, I do. I also like Thad Young and liked Luol Deng and Joakim Noah and lots of other guys whom were good solid starting players that I would never trade two firsts and a guy I project as a future starter to acquire if they weren't already on my team. Especially at the age of 30.
In the end, I do think Vuc is a really good scorer, I mean ignoring the semantics around elite / great / really good and trying to figure out exactly what each of those things mean precisely, I think his lack of defense, average efficiency, age, and fit with Zach make him someone I wouldn't have paid heavily to get.
I hope in a year you can quote this post and we can have a good laugh at how wrong I was. I mean I sincerely hope Vuc / Zach become an unstoppable duo that leads us to the 2nd round with hopes for more. If that happens, I'll be thrilled even if we never go further.