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OT: Dogecoin

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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#81 » by MrSparkle » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:54 pm

Sinistar6 wrote:OT:

What a weird economy this future has shaped out to be and in some ways I blame old school arcades.

I think of cash to gold the old school transaction. Gold is a precious metal and has consistent albeit fluctuated demand. Then I think of buying a book with cash a tan gable thing that brings enjoyment. Then I think of digital video games where you pay for enjoyment and replay ability. Then I think of cash for clothes in a video game and I want to stick my head in a blender.

I think the arcade was the first place you traded cash for a proprietary coin. Once you stick your money in the shady token machine there is no way to flip it back. You spend the money at the location or you don’t spend it. Also this idea of vbucks and robux is a great way to train kids that these things they want do not cost real money...


Great observation. Arcades atleast were a mystical experience - way more advanced than home consoles. A spectacle. Street Fighter 2, Virtua Racing, NBA Jam and Mortal Kombat were insane when they hit the arcades, and the ports were hardly as good. Even though you were stuck with Noah’s Arcade’s worthless proprietary token, the experience was like Disney Land (which granted, is also wildly priced).

But you’re right. The mobile gaming world became a cash-cow for buying frilly avatar hats. Completely desensitizing kids to the value of a dollar (not the currency, but the amount you earn on job). Crypto is the adult desensitization to the dollar.

Changing back to my beefs/questions with crypto, specifically BTC (and let me know if I’m wrong):

- It’s slow to send/process/blockchain. What is Bitcoin, a 1-3 hour transaction?

- A conventional bank (or even PayPal) gets my back if I need to dispute a charge or file a return.

- A bank gets my back if I get hacked, lose my password or pin.

- There are still fees when you make transactions, and there’s no reason the crypto apps won’t raise them if they ever really dominate the market. Also I imagine they’ll be tied to rising energy costs. Right now they’re trying to grow user base, so they’re competitive rates. (Or in Coinbase’s case, pretty expensive actually, unless you use Pro).

- Who is Satoshi?

- What happens when all the Bitcoin is mined?

Atleast Dogecoin addresses the latter two. I actually prefer the idea of a joke currency gone legit. Let the kids use some Doge allowance, with a +/- 1000% fluctuation, for buying those Robux.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#82 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:22 pm

MrSparkle wrote:But you’re right. The mobile gaming world became a cash-cow for buying frilly avatar hats. Completely desensitizing kids to the value of a dollar (not the currency, but the amount you earn on job). Crypto is the adult desensitization to the dollar.


It isn't just kids or even primarily kids. It's adults that play these games too. It's easy to get hooked, and pay to win mechanics for people with disposable income that get hooked will pony up lots of cash. I spent a lot of money on Marvel Contest of Champions before selling my account (broke even in the end), but the top players in the game spent 10k+ per year to remain there. I imagine the same is true of clash of clans and other games.

Changing back to my beefs/questions with crypto, specifically BTC (and let me know if I’m wrong):

- It’s slow to send/process/blockchain. What is Bitcoin, a 1-3 hour transaction?

- A conventional bank (or even PayPal) gets my back if I need to dispute a charge or file a return.

- A bank gets my back if I get hacked, lose my password or pin.

- There are still fees when you make transactions, and there’s no reason the crypto apps won’t raise them if they ever really dominate the market. Also I imagine they’ll be tied to rising energy costs. Right now they’re trying to grow user base, so they’re competitive rates. (Or in Coinbase’s case, pretty expensive actually, unless you use Pro).

- Who is Satoshi?

- What happens when all the Bitcoin is mined?

Atleast Dogecoin addresses the latter two. I actually prefer the idea of a joke currency gone legit. Let the kids use some Doge allowance, with a +/- 1000% fluctuation, for buying those Robux.


What is interesting is that any currency has whatever value people place on it. People used to feel comfortable with the gold standard now they feel comfortable with the dollar being backed the us government rather than gold. Now some people feel comfortable in cryptocurrency which has a value only because enough other people say it has a value.

That is a bubble that could come crashing down, but it could also go the other way. As more and more people get involved in crypto currency, it becomes more and more stable. What is interesting is the idea that people keep making new and more cryptocurrencies. What is to make one valuable vs another? Just the interest it is able to generate.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#83 » by MrSparkle » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:39 pm

dougthonus wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:But you’re right. The mobile gaming world became a cash-cow for buying frilly avatar hats. Completely desensitizing kids to the value of a dollar (not the currency, but the amount you earn on job). Crypto is the adult desensitization to the dollar.


It isn't just kids or even primarily kids. It's adults that play these games too. It's easy to get hooked, and pay to win mechanics for people with disposable income that get hooked will pony up lots of cash. I spent a lot of money on Marvel Contest of Champions before selling my account (broke even in the end), but the top players in the game spent 10k+ per year to remain there. I imagine the same is true of clash of clans and other games.

Changing back to my beefs/questions with crypto, specifically BTC (and let me know if I’m wrong):

- It’s slow to send/process/blockchain. What is Bitcoin, a 1-3 hour transaction?

- A conventional bank (or even PayPal) gets my back if I need to dispute a charge or file a return.

- A bank gets my back if I get hacked, lose my password or pin.

- There are still fees when you make transactions, and there’s no reason the crypto apps won’t raise them if they ever really dominate the market. Also I imagine they’ll be tied to rising energy costs. Right now they’re trying to grow user base, so they’re competitive rates. (Or in Coinbase’s case, pretty expensive actually, unless you use Pro).

- Who is Satoshi?

- What happens when all the Bitcoin is mined?

Atleast Dogecoin addresses the latter two. I actually prefer the idea of a joke currency gone legit. Let the kids use some Doge allowance, with a +/- 1000% fluctuation, for buying those Robux.


What is interesting is that any currency has whatever value people place on it. People used to feel comfortable with the gold standard now they feel comfortable with the dollar being backed the us government rather than gold. Now some people feel comfortable in cryptocurrency which has a value only because enough other people say it has a value.

That is a bubble that could come crashing down, but it could also go the other way. As more and more people get involved in crypto currency, it becomes more and more stable. What is interesting is the idea that people keep making new and more cryptocurrencies. What is to make one valuable vs another? Just the interest it is able to generate.


Well I guess we’ll see how this plays out the next year. It will be bitcoin/crypto’s chance to show its power as a hedge on inflation. South American economies are beginning to get really ugly, and they’re usually a sign of things to come as you can’t ignore the fire in your neighbor’s house forever.

I get the sentiment that hard times haven’t arrived- they are coming. The global economies have paid and will continue to pay a heavy toll on the past year, and at a certain point the majority of the world is going to have to take its speculative gambles out and pay for gas, food, rent and tools, in USD, which will see some level of inflation.

I get the sense that good old fashioned real estate (barre a mortgage collapse), gold and commodities are going to continue being the big staples. When the economy looked apocalyptic last March, it didn’t take long for crypto markets to crash. I sure as hell don’t want to be hanging onto 50k USD worth of cryptocurrency when the next domino on Wall Street falls. We’ll be in big trouble if the local gas stations and corner markets start posting signs saying “Crypto preferred.”

Not to sound doom and gloom. I think the US economy will be manageable. Just, if someone’s looking at crypto as a hedge for global economic downturns, my brain doesn’t process it. It’s more like TSLA and ARK than Gold and VIX.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#84 » by CaPiTanAK » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:03 pm

Sinistar6 wrote:OT:

What a weird economy this future has shaped out to be and in some ways I blame old school arcades.

I think of cash to gold the old school transaction. Gold is a precious metal and has consistent albeit fluctuated demand. Then I think of buying a book with cash a tan gable thing that brings enjoyment. Then I think of digital video games where you pay for enjoyment and replay ability. Then I think of cash for clothes in a video game and I want to stick my head in a blender.

I think the arcade was the first place you traded cash for a proprietary coin. Once you stick your money in the shady token machine there is no way to flip it back. You spend the money at the location or you don’t spend it. Also this idea of vbucks and robux is a great way to train kids that these things they want do not cost real money...


What is real money? People from 100 years ago thought gold was real money. People from your generation thought the USD is real money. Don't be a hater when the tide is turning and now the new generations are thinking digital coins are real money.

It doesn't not matter what you individual want or think. The collective mindset of the world thinks that all fiat currencies are trash, and digital money is more valuable due to it being decentralized and governed by programmed codes instead of a bias governance made by families and moneymakers from the old era.

And Roblux is going to be a great buy bc 3/4 kids in the world are playing it. You can either profit from it, or be that old man barking at trees while the world passes you by.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#85 » by CaPiTanAK » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:09 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
Well I guess we’ll see how this plays out the next year. It will be bitcoin/crypto’s chance to show its power as a hedge on inflation. South American economies are beginning to get really ugly, and they’re usually a sign of things to come as you can’t ignore the fire in your neighbor’s house forever.

I get the sentiment that hard times haven’t arrived- they are coming. The global economies have paid and will continue to pay a heavy toll on the past year, and at a certain point the majority of the world is going to have to take its speculative gambles out and pay for gas, food, rent and tools, in USD, which will see some level of inflation.

I get the sense that good old fashioned real estate (barre a mortgage collapse), gold and commodities are going to continue being the big staples. When the economy looked apocalyptic last March, it didn’t take long for crypto markets to crash. I sure as hell don’t want to be hanging onto 50k USD worth of cryptocurrency when the next domino on Wall Street falls. We’ll be in big trouble if the local gas stations and corner markets start posting signs saying “Crypto preferred.”

Not to sound doom and gloom. I think the US economy will be manageable. Just, if someone’s looking at crypto as a hedge for global economic downturns, my brain doesn’t process it. It’s more like TSLA and ARK than Gold and VIX.


Why would the world economy cares about what's going on in South America? Hyperinflation has been an ongoing trend in those countries every couple of years.

And I personally expect the US stock market major indices to close +20% for the year, led by names like TSLA and others in ARK.

Gold will lag for the entirety of this year. Maybe it will perk up a little bit next year, after a few Viagras given by Joe Biden and his multiple trillion stimulus plans.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#86 » by CaPiTanAK » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:15 pm

dougthonus wrote:What is interesting is that any currency has whatever value people place on it. People used to feel comfortable with the gold standard now they feel comfortable with the dollar being backed the us government rather than gold. Now some people feel comfortable in cryptocurrency which has a value only because enough other people say it has a value.

That is a bubble that could come crashing down, but it could also go the other way. As more and more people get involved in crypto currency, it becomes more and more stable. What is interesting is the idea that people keep making new and more cryptocurrencies. What is to make one valuable vs another? Just the interest it is able to generate.


The underlying value in these cryptos are its utilities and functions behind blockchain tech, and its future roles in a digital economy backed by blockchain technology.

BTC serves as digital gold, but the return of some of these alt coins will be 50-150x due to its functional role, market share, and market potential in a digital economy.

Honestly, you have to think of all of these so called infrastructure chains, leader is now ETH, as the Mac OS vs Windows vs whatever... in Web 2.0. After the established leadership and maturation of the infrastructure system, the Google/FB/Amazon of blockchain will emerge, and then other roles will become necessary allowing for more names to emerge.

This is the beginning, and it's a great opportunity for everyone who takes the time to educate themselves further, and prosper tremendously from the new trend.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#87 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:45 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Well I guess we’ll see how this plays out the next year. It will be bitcoin/crypto’s chance to show its power as a hedge on inflation. South American economies are beginning to get really ugly, and they’re usually a sign of things to come as you can’t ignore the fire in your neighbor’s house forever.

I get the sentiment that hard times haven’t arrived- they are coming. The global economies have paid and will continue to pay a heavy toll on the past year, and at a certain point the majority of the world is going to have to take its speculative gambles out and pay for gas, food, rent and tools, in USD, which will see some level of inflation.

I get the sense that good old fashioned real estate (barre a mortgage collapse), gold and commodities are going to continue being the big staples. When the economy looked apocalyptic last March, it didn’t take long for crypto markets to crash. I sure as hell don’t want to be hanging onto 50k USD worth of cryptocurrency when the next domino on Wall Street falls. We’ll be in big trouble if the local gas stations and corner markets start posting signs saying “Crypto preferred.”

Not to sound doom and gloom. I think the US economy will be manageable. Just, if someone’s looking at crypto as a hedge for global economic downturns, my brain doesn’t process it. It’s more like TSLA and ARK than Gold and VIX.


I have no idea what will happen with crypto, but like anything else, it will move based on supply and demand. If more people are trying to get in than out the price will go up. As crypto becomes more normalized and more interesting to common people, it would seem more likely that those people will try to get in.

You are right though that when normal people get in, they're more likely to need to also get out if economic downturn forces them to get money.

Like I said, to me, it's similar to artwork in that there is no inherent tangible value here, there is only the value that people decide to place on it.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#88 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:51 pm

CaPiTanAK wrote:The underlying value in these cryptos are its utilities and functions behind blockchain tech, and its future roles in a digital economy backed by blockchain technology.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that is ridiculous. Owning cryptocurrency doesn't mean you own the IP of blockchain or the utilities/functions there in. You own a digital currency. What does being blocked by a blockchain mean in terms of value? It's just a form of ledger.

BTC serves as digital gold, but the return of some of these alt coins will be 50-150x due to its functional role, market share, and market potential in a digital economy.


Yes, and in some ways you could say gold is similar. Gold only has value because people have valued it for a long time. There's no reason we need to value gold or should value gold, but we've been taught forever that gold is valuable. Bitcoin could be the same way in the long run too.

Honestly, you have to think of all of these so called infrastructure chains, leader is now ETH, as the Mac OS vs Windows vs whatever... in Web 2.0. After the established leadership and maturation of the infrastructure system, the Google/FB/Amazon of blockchain will emerge, and then other roles will become necessary allowing for more names to emerge.

This is the beginning, and it's a great opportunity for everyone who takes the time to educate themselves further, and prosper tremendously from the new trend.


Could be, but I'm not sure what the fundamental value of a blockchain is here. It's slower and more expensive than traditional transactions and is also terrible for the environment and has an awful carbon footprint.

We largely already do almost all economic activity digitally on faster/cheaper technology than blockchain, so where is the inherent value here? While dollars exist in physical form, what percentage of their spending is digital? It's probably like 99.999%.

Again, I'm not into crypto, I'm very well versed in block chain technology as I researched how my firm could potentially implement it for a couple of years before I convinced people there was absolutely no practical application for us and people were just interested because it was a buzz word.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#89 » by Cabbage bulls » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:17 pm

dougthonus wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:The underlying value in these cryptos are its utilities and functions behind blockchain tech, and its future roles in a digital economy backed by blockchain technology.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that is ridiculous. Owning cryptocurrency doesn't mean you own the IP of blockchain or the utilities/functions there in. You own a digital currency. What does being blocked by a blockchain mean in terms of value? It's just a form of ledger.

BTC serves as digital gold, but the return of some of these alt coins will be 50-150x due to its functional role, market share, and market potential in a digital economy.


Yes, and in some ways you could say gold is similar. Gold only has value because people have valued it for a long time. There's no reason we need to value gold or should value gold, but we've been taught forever that gold is valuable. Bitcoin could be the same way in the long run too.

Honestly, you have to think of all of these so called infrastructure chains, leader is now ETH, as the Mac OS vs Windows vs whatever... in Web 2.0. After the established leadership and maturation of the infrastructure system, the Google/FB/Amazon of blockchain will emerge, and then other roles will become necessary allowing for more names to emerge.

This is the beginning, and it's a great opportunity for everyone who takes the time to educate themselves further, and prosper tremendously from the new trend.


Could be, but I'm not sure what the fundamental value of a blockchain is here. It's slower and more expensive than traditional transactions and is also terrible for the environment and has an awful carbon footprint.

We largely already do almost all economic activity digitally on faster/cheaper technology than blockchain, so where is the inherent value here? While dollars exist in physical form, what percentage of their spending is digital? It's probably like 99.999%.

Again, I'm not into crypto, I'm very well versed in block chain technology as I researched how my firm could potentially implement it for a couple of years before I convinced people there was absolutely no practical application for us and people were just interested because it was a buzz word.


I think he is saying that these cryptocurrencies have utilities outside of simply being a digital currency. Take VeChain for example:

"VeChain is a blockchain platform designed to enhance supply chain management and business processes. Its goal is to streamline these processes and information flow for complex supply chains through the use of distributed ledger technology (DLT)."

"Examples of How VeChain Can Be Used
For example, the platform can be used to track quality, authenticity, storage temperature, transportation medium, and last-mile delivery of a medicine pack or an alcohol bottle right from the manufacturing facility through to the final delivery to the end customer. To accomplish this goal, VeChain uses smart chips or Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tags and sensors that broadcast key information onto the blockchain network that can be accessed in real-time by authorized stakeholders.

The application of sensors means that all parameters related to the product can be constantly monitored and problems, if any, can be communicated back to the relevant stakeholders. Manufacturers and customers are informed if a drug packet is stored outside a prescribed temperature range, allowing for service improvements and better quality control.

In another example, the VeChain platform can enable automobile owners to own their data and use it to negotiate better terms and policies with their insurance companies."

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/vechain.asp
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#90 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:07 pm

Cabbage bulls wrote:I think he is saying that these cryptocurrencies have utilities outside of simply being a digital currency. Take VeChain for example:

"VeChain is a blockchain platform designed to enhance supply chain management and business processes. Its goal is to streamline these processes and information flow for complex supply chains through the use of distributed ledger technology (DLT)."

"Examples of How VeChain Can Be Used
For example, the platform can be used to track quality, authenticity, storage temperature, transportation medium, and last-mile delivery of a medicine pack or an alcohol bottle right from the manufacturing facility through to the final delivery to the end customer. To accomplish this goal, VeChain uses smart chips or Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tags and sensors that broadcast key information onto the blockchain network that can be accessed in real-time by authorized stakeholders.

The application of sensors means that all parameters related to the product can be constantly monitored and problems, if any, can be communicated back to the relevant stakeholders. Manufacturers and customers are informed if a drug packet is stored outside a prescribed temperature range, allowing for service improvements and better quality control.

In another example, the VeChain platform can enable automobile owners to own their data and use it to negotiate better terms and policies with their insurance companies."

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/vechain.asp


:dontknow:

All of these things are possible and were done prior to block chain with way less resources and lower cost. I'm not sure how much people really understand what blockchain does, but integrating any API is radically easier than implementing a blockchain, is more cost effective for both parties, and is much faster.

Fundamentally, blockchain solves a problem of trust by distributing the truth. There are very few instances where trust is an important problem to solve at massive scale like this. There are enough checks in balances already where chase bank can't just make up a number in its ledger and say it has 10 billion dollars it doesn't have and go buy things with it.

The car / grocery examples have been tried but don't make much sense to do. You could embed all that data already via api and put it into a central repository for radically less. What is the value of distributing the entire ledger? There is no value to that. An api call that someone implements to connect to walmart instead of a blockchain is going to be faster, cheaper, just as trustworthy, and easier to implement.

Blockchain had massive hype as a technology 10 years ago, but there aren't really many problem sets that I can think of that it effectively solves. The people that have invested billions into it are dying to find a way to sell it or profit off of it, but I haven't seen it used in many scenarios. It's a very slow / expensive way to share data, so you really need to have a massive trust problem that can't be resolved otherwise for it to ever make sense to implement.

But either way, ignoring my personal view of block chain technology, how does that give cryptocurrency further utility? The fact that blockchain technology may have some value outside of being used for NFTs and cryptocurrency doesn't make cryptocurrency more valuable. That'd be like saying I have a car that is made of steel and steel can also be used to make other things, so my car is more valuable because steel is a versatile metal used in lots of things.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#91 » by CaPiTanAK » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:32 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Cabbage bulls wrote:I think he is saying that these cryptocurrencies have utilities outside of simply being a digital currency. Take VeChain for example:

"VeChain is a blockchain platform designed to enhance supply chain management and business processes. Its goal is to streamline these processes and information flow for complex supply chains through the use of distributed ledger technology (DLT)."

"Examples of How VeChain Can Be Used
For example, the platform can be used to track quality, authenticity, storage temperature, transportation medium, and last-mile delivery of a medicine pack or an alcohol bottle right from the manufacturing facility through to the final delivery to the end customer. To accomplish this goal, VeChain uses smart chips or Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tags and sensors that broadcast key information onto the blockchain network that can be accessed in real-time by authorized stakeholders.

The application of sensors means that all parameters related to the product can be constantly monitored and problems, if any, can be communicated back to the relevant stakeholders. Manufacturers and customers are informed if a drug packet is stored outside a prescribed temperature range, allowing for service improvements and better quality control.

In another example, the VeChain platform can enable automobile owners to own their data and use it to negotiate better terms and policies with their insurance companies."

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/vechain.asp


:dontknow:

All of these things are possible and were done prior to block chain with way less resources and lower cost. I'm not sure how much people really understand what blockchain does, but integrating any API is radically easier than implementing a blockchain, is more cost effective for both parties, and is much faster.

Fundamentally, blockchain solves a problem of trust by distributing the truth. There are very few instances where trust is an important problem to solve at massive scale like this. There are enough checks in balances already where chase bank can't just make up a number in its ledger and say it has 10 billion dollars it doesn't have and go buy things with it.

The car / grocery examples have been tried but don't make much sense to do. You could embed all that data already via api and put it into a central repository for radically less. What is the value of distributing the entire ledger? There is no value to that. An api call that someone implements to connect to walmart instead of a blockchain is going to be faster, cheaper, just as trustworthy, and easier to implement.

Blockchain had massive hype as a technology 10 years ago, but there aren't really many problem sets that I can think of that it effectively solves. The people that have invested billions into it are dying to find a way to sell it or profit off of it, but I haven't seen it used in many scenarios. It's a very slow / expensive way to share data, so you really need to have a massive trust problem that can't be resolved otherwise for it to ever make sense to implement.

But either way, ignoring my personal view of block chain technology, how does that give cryptocurrency further utility? The fact that blockchain technology may have some value outside of being used for NFTs and cryptocurrency doesn't make cryptocurrency more valuable. That'd be like saying I have a car that is made of steel and steel can also be used to make other things, so my car is more valuable because steel is a versatile metal used in lots of things.


Your opinion and understanding are grossly misplaced.

Nah, it’s not about the steel of the car that makes it better. It’s a car made out of graphite although the process to create it and distribute are slower, more expensive, and more cumbersome which are going to be solved with scaling over time.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#92 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:45 pm

CaPiTanAK wrote:Your opinion and understanding are grossly misplaced.


You have shown no counterarguments, shown no understanding of the product, haven't even given a description as to why you think it is valuable.

Your opinion on the topic has absolutely no merit whatsoever so far based on what you have stated to date, which is absolutely nothing of substance.

Maybe I am wrong about blockchain and it will be a killer tech, but I have at least shown reasons that demonstrate I actually know what a blockchain is, how it works, what problem it is meant to solve, the implementation costs, and operating costs in comparison to viable alternatives. I can do so, because I worked on a project considering whether my firm should implement blockchain.

So far, my speculative guess is you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about blockchain, because that is what you have demonstrated thus far in your posts.

Ignoring whether blockchain is good/bad useful technology, you also haven't given any evidence as to why you think cryptocurrency built on block chain is going to derive benefit from it? Do you think it will ultimately offer cost savings? It's literally orders of magnitude slower and more expensive today than other alternatives. Why do you think that will change? Do you understand that distributing a ledger is inherently more expensive for transactions than having a centralized ledger because it by necessity requires considerably more updates / communication to be made?

Nah, it’s not about the steel of the car that makes it better. It’s a car made out of graphite although the process to create it and distribute are slower, more expensive, and more cumbersome which are going to be solved with scaling over time.


Not sure if you fail to comprehend what I wrote or are just deliberately side stepping it.

A product is not more valuable because the components the product is built on have value in other ways. The product is valuable for the product itself. There is no value to bitcoin being on blockchain fundamentally vs any other platform that ensured the ledger was trusted.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#93 » by R3AL1TY » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:41 pm

The main benefit of blockchain technology at the moment is it can provide decentralized ways of doing finance or sharing data where you don't need to rely on a central authority to control and make all the decisions on the transactions and the database its recorded in. But blockchain technology is indeed more expensive and slow compared to other centralized, electronic payment systems. But it appears there is a less expensive and faster method for the blockchain out there called Proof of Stake, but it still isn't as popular yet as the more expensive Proof of Work method that Bitcoin uses.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#94 » by dougthonus » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:13 pm

R3AL1TY wrote:The main benefit of blockchain technology at the moment is it can provide decentralized ways of doing finance or sharing data where you don't need to rely on a central authority to control and make all the decisions on the transactions and the database its recorded in. But blockchain technology is indeed more expensive and slow compared to other centralized, electronic payment systems. But it appears there is a less expensive and faster method for the blockchain out there called Proof of Stake, but it still isn't as popular yet as the more expensive Proof of Work method that Bitcoin uses.


I agree the proof of stake model is much better for the technology in the long run.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#95 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:01 am

dougthonus wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:You have shown no counterarguments, shown no understanding of the product, haven't even given a description as to why you think it is valuable.

Your opinion on the topic has absolutely no merit whatsoever so far based on what you have stated to date, which is absolutely nothing of substance.

Maybe I am wrong about blockchain and it will be a killer tech, but I have at least shown reasons that demonstrate I actually know what a blockchain is, how it works, what problem it is meant to solve, the implementation costs, and operating costs in comparison to viable alternatives. I can do so, because I worked on a project considering whether my firm should implement blockchain.

So far, my speculative guess is you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about blockchain, because that is what you have demonstrated thus far in your posts.

Ignoring whether blockchain is good/bad useful technology, you also haven't given any evidence as to why you think cryptocurrency built on block chain is going to derive benefit from it? Do you think it will ultimately offer cost savings? It's literally orders of magnitude slower and more expensive today than other alternatives. Why do you think that will change? Do you understand that distributing a ledger is inherently more expensive for transactions than having a centralized ledger because it by necessity requires considerably more updates / communication to be made?

Nah, it’s not about the steel of the car that makes it better. It’s a car made out of graphite although the process to create it and distribute are slower, more expensive, and more cumbersome which are going to be solved with scaling over time.


Not sure if you fail to comprehend what I wrote or are just deliberately side stepping it.

A product is not more valuable because the components the product is built on have value in other ways. The product is valuable for the product itself. There is no value to bitcoin being on blockchain fundamentally vs any other platform that ensured the ledger was trusted.


It's more valuable bc it's a decentralized medium of exchange in which trust has been lost in traditional finance and in our society. It's true that the traditional ways of doing things are better in term of speed and cost at the moment. Given your argument, should we have ignored the Internet in the 90s? Cryptos aren't being valued for current productions, but rather the potential for the technology. Some better futures that I can think of for blockchain include:

1. A decentralized application for exchange that's better than traditional exchanges like Robinhood, which disguises itself as a medium to screw the mass and enrich the mass. Uniswap will eventually replace traditional exchange.

2. Decentralized DeFi which allows people to get 8-16% return on their savings rather the silent thief with .2% CD rate with true inflation running at 4-6% while the CPI is rigged to underestimate the true #s

3. Like all technologies, it will follow an exponential tech development phase in which all current things that you see as roadblocks like now will eventually resolve, like cost of trx, scaling, and speed

4. Our next phase of growth will be a global economy in which consumer and producer are directly connected to each other. That step is impossible with existing institutions, policies, and deeply entrenched tech firms seeking to only profit the rich and steal from the poor. Look for further than our supposedly own unbiased Fed Reserve rigging the game from Day 1 to make bankers and people with connections richer, and worsening the economic gap over time. Thanks to the Internet, the mask has been unveiled and more and more people are seeing the value is a decentralized system without bias, even if its performance is worse than traditional system's at current time.

5. Once the infrastructure has been built to resolve the current problems that you have outlined, I see the global economy to be more connected in the future with ensured trust and exponential growth. Some of the possibilities after this will be like:
a. Producers like musicians and artists will have a mean to distribute their products directly to the consumer instead of relying on traditional institutions taking a majority of the cut without producing anyway
b. All means of investment will be tokenized, allowing the mass to put money into deals that only existed to the rich and partake in the growth and profit
c. Product requests are posted on a decentralized exchanges, allowing the best work at the best price from a contractor to be done with public evidence
d. Exchanges are governed by smart contract with low fees, with the cheaters being penalized or kicked out of the system. This can go into all means of doing business to even own delivery system, in which frauds and losses are annually claimed resulting in millions of loss to Amazon.

Right now, the war is being waged on the go to infrastructure for blockchain apps and developers. The winner of this will be the future world currency. Investing in one of these tokens is like investing in a real estate piece of the future digital world economy. Once the infrastructure is built (my estimation in 2-3 years), new ways of doing business will come out of it. For example, I already see the followings:
1. Videos made by producers can now be monetized with 95% of revenue returned back to the content producer, instead of Youtube taking a 60-70% and leaving about 20% cut back the the producer. Same thought process for audio industry.
2. Internet users can now monetize their data in term of web browsing habit, instead of companies like FB, Google, and Apple tracking your activities and selling them off for their own profit

These are just some thoughts, and I haven't done a deep dive into these areas. But, I personally believe that the future companies worth multi-trillions (>10 trillions) will come out of blockchain. For me, the most obvious one right now is TSLA with its autonomous driving tech and its adoption of BTC as a payment system.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#96 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:05 am

FYI, I keep 98% of my assets in either stocks or cryptos. Stonk index runs at annual average rate of return about +8-9% return. DeFi cryptos run at rate bet 5-16% return. DeFi crypto will be the future bc who the hell wants to keep their savings in bank accounts with yields in 0.5% while your neighbors are banking 5-17%. It's like Internet purchase made in early 2000s. Amazon was so popular in 2000s, at least from my end since I was an early adopter bc you kind of didn't have to pay sales tax on all of your purchases. DeFi crypto will be popular in 5-7 years bc why the hell would you want to leave your money sitting in banks and doing nothing.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#97 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:07 am

CaPiTanAK wrote:It's more valuable bc it's a decentralized medium of exchange in which trust has been lost in traditional finance and in our society.


This isn't true. Traditional finance is infinitely more trusted than block chain. I can go use my visa card anywhere, not buy something in bitcoin anywhere.

It's true that the traditional ways of doing things are better in term of speed and cost at the moment. Given your argument, should we have ignored the Internet in the 90s? Cryptos aren't being valued for current productions, but rather the potential for the technology. Some better futures that I can think of for blockchain include:


Blockchain will always be slower, updating the chain will always be slower than updating a single point. Distributed ledger is necessarily slower because it is simply an order of magnitude more complex by design.

1. A decentralized application for exchange that's better than traditional exchanges like Robinhood, which disguises itself as a medium to screw the mass and enrich the mass. Uniswap will eventually replace traditional exchange.


Are you seriously saying Robinhood is your example of traditional financial exchange?

2. Decentralized DeFi which allows people to get 8-16% return on their savings rather the silent thief with .2% CD rate with true inflation running at 4-6% while the CPI is rigged to underestimate the true #s


Returns in finance are related to risk. If you are getting an 8-16% return you are taking on considerably more risk than a CD or some other safe product. There are many ways you can invest that is high risk / high return and crypto currencies are certainly one of them.

3. Like all technologies, it will follow an exponential tech development phase in which all current things that you see as roadblocks like now will eventually resolve, like cost of trx, scaling, and speed


Certainly if cpu power rises exponentially relative to electricity used that could be true. The fact that fundamentally, the process is orders of magnitude more complex than a central ledger means it will never match those things on central ledger, but it may get to the point where the difference is irrelevant over enough time.

4. Our next phase of growth will be a global economy in which consumer and producer are directly connected to each other. That step is impossible with existing institutions, policies, and deeply entrenched tech firms seeking to only profit the rich and steal from the poor. Look for further than our supposedly own unbiased Fed Reserve rigging the game from Day 1 to make bankers and people with connections richer, and worsening the economic gap over time. Thanks to the Internet, the mask has been unveiled and more and more people are seeing the value is a decentralized system without bias, even if its performance is worse than traditional system's at current time.


I do believe the system is rigged to make rich people richer. The ways it is rigged aren't what you are suggesting though. They are primarily through tax policy and spending policy though. Bitcoin won't change that at all in this country though. It won't change the massive tax breaks on wealth/capital vs labor. The problems with this are also different in each country though. While you seem to trying to be spouting some weird financial conspiracy here, you don't seem to understand the role of the different financial institutions or why the rich get richer.

5. Once the infrastructure has been built to resolve the current problems that you have outlined, I see the global economy to be more connected in the future with ensured trust and exponential growth. Some of the possibilities after this will be like:


Not sure why you think distributed ledger will lead to any of these outcomes.

a. Producers like musicians and artists will have a mean to distribute their products directly to the consumer instead of relying on traditional institutions taking a majority of the cut without producing anyway


Already can happen today trivially. People go to middlemen for advertising because those middlemen have reach. Distributed ledger won't generate reach for people. It's like saying I have infinite reach because I can start a twitter account, yes in theory, but in actuality my reach is still very small.

b. All means of investment will be tokenized, allowing the mass to put money into deals that only existed to the rich and partake in the growth and profit


Already can happen today for people that want their investments to be available to everyone. Lots of companies break down larger transactions into smaller blocks. This is fundamentally what shares of stock are and lots of places now allow you to even buy just partial shares of stock.

c. Product requests are posted on a decentralized exchanges, allowing the best work at the best price from a contractor to be done with public evidence


That only makes sense when you have commoditized / identical services. Not really sure what you mean, but in areas where you have that, again, already exists in the commodities market which has existed forever.

d. Exchanges are governed by smart contract with low fees, with the cheaters being penalized or kicked out of the system.


This is also already true.

This can go into all means of doing business to even own delivery system, in which frauds and losses are annually claimed resulting in millions of loss to Amazon.


So you think each individual will have a smart house connected to amazon's block chain in order to do business with them?

1. Videos made by producers can now be monetized with 95% of revenue returned back to the content producer, instead of Youtube taking a 60-70% and leaving about 20% cut back the the producer. Same thought process for audio industry.


You can monetize all your videos now. You don't have to post on youtube. You choose youtube because the platform itself allows you to make more money than posting on a different platform. I'm struggling to think how you think you will monetize a video on blockchain or post it in a decentralized way and how that will give you money? Are you referring to NFTs?

2. Internet users can now monetize their data in term of web browsing habit, instead of companies like FB, Google, and Apple tracking your activities and selling them off for their own profit


How much do you think anyone will pay for this? And again, why do you think this fits into a distributed ledger.

These are just some thoughts, and I haven't done a deep dive into these areas. But, I personally believe that the future companies worth multi-trillions (>10 trillions) will come out of blockchain. For me, the most obvious one right now is TSLA with its autonomous driving tech and its adoption of BTC as a payment system.


None of the ideas you mention require a distributed ledger or are enhanced by a distributed ledger (or at least I don't see how). You seem to not understand the difference between blockchain and AI, I can see why you think it's a super tech given that autonomous driving is about AI not blockchain and the two aren't remotely related.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#98 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:13 am

CaPiTanAK wrote:FYI, I keep 98% of my assets in either stocks or cryptos. Stonk index runs at annual average rate of return about +8-9% return. DeFi cryptos run at rate bet 5-16% return. DeFi crypto will be the future bc who the hell wants to keep their savings in bank accounts with yields in 0.5% while your neighbors are banking 5-17%. It's like Internet purchase made in early 2000s. Amazon was so popular in 2000s, at least from my end since I was an early adopter bc you kind of didn't have to pay sales tax on all of your purchases. DeFi crypto will be popular in 5-7 years bc why the hell would you want to leave your money sitting in banks and doing nothing.


You literally have absolutely no knowledge of finance whatsoever. Risk/Reward are correlated. Lots of people put money in low risk assets because they either need the ability to get it out immediately and want assurance that its value won't change. Cryptocurrency can be worth 20% less tomorrow. Many people cannot absorb that loss.

If you are young, your decision to put your money in high risk assets is generally a good one, because over a long period of time your return is expected to be much greater. There certainly is a chance that crypto would be like going heavy into tech stocks in the 90s where you probably just made a heck ton of money. AI could end up being the same way. So could cloud based things. Maybe even all three things will be. However, all of them are will have different risks associated with them and also likely some winners and losers.

Again, I'm not against crypto or saying crypto won't be huge. I definitely see why it has that potential. I wouldn't be shocked if it became huge. Blockchain itself I feel has pretty limited value as a technology because distributed ledger isn't something that has a lot of use cases. That's neither here nor there really though.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#99 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:28 am

The point of a distributed ledger is to create a public decentralized system that’s immutable and secured and eventually give way to a trustworthy digital global economy, which a centralized exchange or institution can’t do.
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Re: OT: Dogecoin 

Post#100 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:35 am

CaPiTanAK wrote:The point of a distributed ledger is to create a public decentralized system and eventually give way to a trustworthy digital global economy, which a centralized exchange or institution can’t do.


A distributed ledger creates trust in the accuracy of the ledger. Do you question the accuracy of your current financial institution ledgers? A distributed ledger does not create trust in the value of what is on it. I don't trust that bitcoin will be worth any specific amount in 1 week vs today while I do have a high degree of trust in what $10 can buy a year from now.

Either way, again, Crypto might be good, but I fail to see where trust of the accuracy of the financial ledger is a massive problem in today's world.

In addition to this when you quoted about how great block chain is 95% of the things you brought up as uses are not improved by having a ledger which can be trusted to be accurate.
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