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Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#321 » by TeamMan » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:30 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Raise your hand if you think Bulls match a $20m offer for Lauri, keep him in Chicago as the starting PF or 6th man.

......

Are we really asking why Donovan won't put the ball in Lauri's hands? Give PW's minutes to him? Ice Thad, Theis and Vuc?

Coby and Pat are being developed. The hope is they pan out more successfully by year 3 than Wendell and Lauri did.

Didn't see it mentioned after the Heat game, so I'll squeeze it in here.

During the early part of the 4th qtr. comeback, the Bulls had the following lineup on the floor:

- Vuc
- Theis
- Lauri
- Coby
- Valentine

In this Lineup Lauri was playing SF.

I don't watch full games any more. So, can someone tell me how long BD has been using Lauri at SF?

Way back during the Gar/Pax years I wondered if any coach would try him at SF, but I don't recall it ever being done.

========================
This leads me back to the question that led off the post from MrSparkle...

IMO, AK is not going to just let Lauri walk.

At the very least, he'll work a Sign-and-Trade to get back a 1st round pick. If not, he could match any offer and look to trade Lauri before or at the trade deadline next season.

No GM is going to give up 2 1st-round picks in a trade, then let players walk away that might get him a 1st-pick back in return.

So, it could be that BD is using Lauri at SF to find out if it's an option going forward. He's certainly no worse than MPJ at Denver, and is also better than Valentine.

But there could be some teams out there that are thinking the same thing, and AK/BD don't want to miss trying something, then see it work for another team.

I'm happy with what they're doing with Lauri to test every option before possibly trading him over the summer.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#322 » by chefo » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:40 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Pentele wrote:Sure, that is completely understandable. But then the point is not to win, and certainly the present discussions around how well Lauri is used are premised on the idea that the team wants to win games. Some argue that Lauri is easily replacable journeyman-caliber player who does not really contribute to winning while others are saying that, to win games, the Bulls should use Lauri more efficiently. I do not think it is more complex than that.



The Bulls need to get Lauri good looks often on offense when on the floor, because if they aren't going to do that, then he's a huge negative. He's a particularly bad fit with our starting center now. We should always look to give him scoring opportunities when on the floor, but those are often hard to generate, because most of Lauri's efficiency is due to him shooting wide open shots. It isn't easy to generate a wide open shot for Lauri, and defenses generally don't have a hard time taking that away in important moments.

In that sense, (to me) it kind of depends what you mean here. The Bulls should attempt to use Lauri's offense when on the floor, because if not, why have him out there at all? That is sometimes easier said than done though. The second thing is that trying to use Lauri efficiently doesn't mean the team will be better than using Thad or Theis efficiently in lower volume and other players in higher volume.

Lauri, fundamentally doesn't look like an impact player to me. With WCJ, Gafford, or Thad at Center, then I think think Lauri was the Bulls best PF to complement them. With Vuc, I think he's probably the worst. With Theis or Thad he's pretty solid. If I had my big man rotation of Theis, Thad, Vuc, Lauri, then I would probably virtually never play Lauri/Vuc at the same time and play Vuc as many minutes as he's capable to stay healthy and fresh (30ish) which would leave me with 18 for Lauri paired up with Theis or Thad. Maybe I'd give Lauri an extra 4-5 with Vuc here and there, but I wouldn't stick with that look too often.


I actually think that's exactly how the Bulls coaches are thinking about it.

In my opinion, they need to get more creative about using their roster. The benefit of having bigs that can shoot is that you can invert the offense where the "smalls" can operate in the paint, either driving, cutting or posting up and the bigs pull the opposing bigs out. Think Billups' Pistons with Dice and Rasheed and Okur, or current Nuggets with Jokic. Jokic obviously has the added benefit of being the hub, but the reason it works is because he can score well, both from the outside or driving, if the defender gets in his face in order to break up his passing game.

Here's the thing--if you have Vuc that needs to be guarded on the pop, or Lauri on the spot-up, and hopefully Theis at some point in the future, the "small" that gets to pin down, cut, post up can actually be Lauri because that's who the shortest defender will likely be on in a Vuc, Theis, Lauri lineup. The opposite is true if you replace Theis with Thad. With a single "big" shooter in Vuc, and two very reluctant shooters in Pat and Sato, Thad looked the worst he's looked all season because the lane was more packed than at any other time this year. You replace Pat with Lauri and Sato with Coby, and all of a sudden that lane opens up again because you'll have a bunch of guys you actually have to pay attention to outside. So you can get something out of Thad as well.

Lauri makes this whole thing work because he's a good enough shooter to play SF on O, and big enough to play "a big small" if he has other shooters on the floor with him. On D, Pat sucks anyway so not sure how much you're giving up there.

What I would stay away from are the following:

* Vuc and Lauri, as the two bigs, with no Theis on the floor with them, at least until Zach comes back
* Vuc and Thad, with no gunners next to them--Thad never looked as washed up as when starting next to Vuc, and is useless unless he gets his 55-60 touches in the 20 min he can stay fresh on the floor
* Thad and Theis--neither can currently shoot so nothing works, unless there's another "big" shooter on the floor with them

So, what should it look like?

Lauri-Theis-Vuc (the gargantuan lineup) for 15 min / game with Lauri as the SF
Lauri-Thad--> off the bench; it worked to start the year for both of them -- for 15 min game, with Lauri as the stretch PF
Vuc-Theis--> defense-focused (Temple+Brown/Thad+Sato) -- for 15 minutes a game, including Vuc-Theis-Thad for 5 min /game just because they'll overlap at some point, just by accident

In that way, Lauri "steals" some time from Pat at SF, but Vuc gets his 30, Thad gets his 20, most of them without Vuc to hoover in all the "big" touches, and Theis gets his 20 min to play some hard-nosed D, mostly with Vuc, so that Vuc can play PF on defense for 20 min and not C.

At this point, Coach D needs to find a way to put enough O on the floor for the majority of the 48 minutes. We can't afford to have Thad and Lauri languish in diminished roles with Zach and his O out.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#323 » by kodo » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:40 pm

It's going to be difficult to get Lauri more opportunities, he's already near the top of the league for 3P attempts as a stretch big. Per minute, he shoots more 3s than Jokic, Michael Porter, KAT, Tatum, Porzingis. The Bulls generate as many looks for him as any shooting big.

The only realistic area of improvement is inside the 3 point line, and his driving abilities just aren't good enough. He has real weaknesses, and putting the ball on the floor and being able to snake past smaller & faster defenders is one of them. He already finishes well when he gets the ball directly under the rim with a small guy on him. But how many times per game will defenses screw up like that. That's not a play you can make a career out of.

Since he doesn't have anything close to the rim protection of Lopez or Porzingis, he very much looks like he'll be a Bertrans / Gallo type player for his career. Both those guys were desired in FA and got big long term contracts so teams were willing to commit hard to these guys. He's got value as well I would guess.

But it's hard to push more scoring volume through this kind of player. Obviously someone on the Wizards has said "hey Bertrans is a 63% TS player and higher than anyone else on this team, and Westbrook scores at 50% TS, maybe we should let Bertrans score more."
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#324 » by chefo » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:55 pm

Mark K wrote:
chefo wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Raise your hand if you think Bulls match a $20m offer for Lauri, keep him in Chicago as the starting PF or 6th man.

......

Are we really asking why Donovan won't put the ball in Lauri's hands? Give PW's minutes to him? Ice Thad, Theis and Vuc?

Coby and Pat are being developed. The hope is they pan out more successfully by year 3 than Wendell and Lauri did.


If they don't intend to change how they'll use him, it'd be idiotic to match. As for this season--yeah, if Lauri got 10 of Pat's minutes post demotion, we'd have more Ws, I'm absolutely certain of that. Lauri's not a SF, but Pat's not one either, and Lauri is a much better SF than Pat and much better player overall, at least currently. Yeah, may not be the case in 3 years, but this year when he got 4th option touches, Lauri gave you 18 ppg so he can produce very well on low usage.

Pat gets nothing from being a warm body that's afraid to shoot for 30 min per game. He's pretty bad as a low usage player. As I've written, I'd rather he gets 10 shots playing 18 minutes off the bench, and try to be the leader of that group than get 7 shots playing 30 min with the starters where he's a huge drag to the team.


What evidence do we have that Lauri Markkanen can exist at small forward?

Further to this, if Markkanen is to have a viable career, it will be based on his ability to transition to and play center, not on the perimeter — which is an unbelievably bad decision imo, especially against teams like the Heat.


I sure hope Lauri's not a full-time SF. He is, however, a good player...

... and, we don't have a single SF that's an above average, good player currently:

* Pat has swung between bad and really bad most of the year

* Val is just Val, and has a 49% TS despite having all the confidence in the world

* Brown can't get off the bench and is not a good shooter (though I like his hustle)

* Temple is a good defender, but he is a part of the 52% TS brigade on the team

These four currently split the minutes at SF and SG with Zach out, and that's about the least awe-inspiring group on the wings probably in the entire NBA, when it comes to getting buckets. You need to be able to sneak a guy in there that can shoot and score well and that the D has to at least pretend to pay attention to.

For lack of a better option, it probably needs to be Lauri. He's the only one apart from Vuc that people have to guard on the outside. Thad and Theis won't work--they are not good enough shooters to play wings. Hopefully AK can get an actual wing at some point in the future, but right now our wing rotation is despicably 'trrble.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#325 » by Mark K » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:00 am

chefo wrote:I sure hope Lauri's not a full-time SF. He is, however, a good player...

... and, we don't have a single SF that's an above average, good player currently:

* Pat has swung between bad and really bad most of the year

* Val is just Val, and has a 49% TS despite having all the confidence in the world

* Brown can't get off the bench and is not a good shooter (though I like his hustle)

* Temple is a good defender, but he is a part of the 52% TS brigade on the team

These four currently split the minutes at SF and SG with Zach out, and that's about the least awe-inspiring group on the wings probably in the entire NBA, when it comes to getting buckets. You need to be able to sneak a guy in there that can shoot and score well and that the D has to at least pretend to pay attention to.

For lack of a better option, it probably needs to be Lauri. He's the only one apart from Vuc that people have to guard on the outside. Thad and Theis won't work--they are not good enough shooters to play wings. Hopefully AK can get an actual wing at some point in the future, but right now our wing rotation is despicably 'trrble.


Lauri can be a good player, albeit an inconsistent one, but when he is, that's at his preferred position where he has realistically opportunities to beat his matchup.

Yesterday, he was guarding Jimmy Butler on defense and being guard by Butler on offense.

That's not a recipe for success for Markkanen, so I very much doubt his 'good' will just transfer to a different position where he's being guarded by perimeter players almost exclusively.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#326 » by DunkenDunk » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:44 am

chefo wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Pentele wrote:So, what should it look like?

Lauri-Theis-Vuc (the gargantuan lineup) for 15 min / game with Lauri as the SF
Lauri-Thad--> off the bench; it worked to start the year for both of them -- for 15 min game, with Lauri as the stretch PF
Vuc-Theis--> defense-focused (Temple+Brown/Thad+Sato) -- for 15 minutes a game, including Vuc-Theis-Thad for 5 min /game just because they'll overlap at some point, just by accident


I would like to see how the combination of Vuc and Thad under the basket will work. Both of them have good hands both to catch and pass the ball. So if either of them gets doubled by defender, another one is very likely free for easy basket (as they have shown to be able to pass the ball). And in cases where both of them are well defended there is likely some free space for shooter in the arc or third player cutting for jump shot/layup. This combination could have for example 15-20 min on each game and then Vuc/Theis another 10-15 min.

Zack would be the main guy for doing cutts under the basket for jump shots and layups, PW/Lauri/Coby could do that as well.
Coby would be the main guy for shooting from passes behind PW, Valentine/Arch/PW/Lauri/Zack could do that as well.
Plays would be started by Zack/Temple/Sato/Arci who can also do 3 pointers, cuts for layups and jump shots.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#327 » by Pentele » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:44 am

dougthonus wrote:The Bulls need to get Lauri good looks often on offense when on the floor, because if they aren't going to do that, then he's a huge negative. He's a particularly bad fit with our starting center now. We should always look to give him scoring opportunities when on the floor, but those are often hard to generate, because most of Lauri's efficiency is due to him shooting wide open shots. It isn't easy to generate a wide open shot for Lauri, and defenses generally don't have a hard time taking that away in important moments.


I do not think that it is fair to say that most of Lauri's efficiency is due to him shooting wide open shots. Lauri has finished around the rim very well this year, and I remember seeing a statistic (earlier in this thread) that further informs us that Lauri has been almost ridiculously good in converting his difficult rim opportunities to points. Another thing is that it seems only Theis (and sometimes Vuc) is able to find Lauri under the basket. One could argue that the deficiencies in the current roster in that regard speak for playing Lauri less, but that is hardly a matter that should be raised in a player discussion against that player (not that you would have done so).

However, it is fair to say that the bulk of the points Lauri has scored has come from relatively open three point shots. Maybe there are not many more of those that can be "generated" for him unless the Bulls are willing to run more set plays. It is also often pointed out that Lauri has a tendency to float around the perimeter. But here it should be noted that Lauri is actually quite actively looking for opportunities when he is not limited to the weak side spacer role. For some reason, the Bulls have not been able to find him in mismatches (or even cuts) as much as they should, and that is a pretty uncontroversial observation to make or at least I see it as such.

dougthonus wrote:In that sense, (to me) it kind of depends what you mean here. The Bulls should attempt to use Lauri's offense when on the floor, because if not, why have him out there at all? That is sometimes easier said than done though. The second thing is that trying to use Lauri efficiently doesn't mean the team will be better than using Thad or Theis efficiently in lower volume and other players in higher volume.


I think that chefo has covered this issue much better than I ever could hope to do myself. But I add that Lauri has also been quite good defensively, recently (at the very least, not in any way worse than most others), so he is quite passable as a bench player even if he is not used offensively, optimally. But in principle I agree with "The Bulls should attempt to use Lauri's offense when on the floor, because if not, why have him out there at all?" It is definitely easier said than done, but that's why not only the players but also the coaching staff are paid handsomely. We should not expect any less.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#328 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:29 pm

Pentele wrote:I do not think that it is fair to say that most of Lauri's efficiency is due to him shooting wide open shots. Lauri has finished around the rim very well this year, and I remember seeing a statistic (earlier in this thread) that further informs us that Lauri has been almost ridiculously good in converting his difficult rim opportunities to points.


It's not easy to generate rim opportunities either, most of his rim opportunities are also on easy attempts that teams try to take away. But sure, yeah if you can get a 7 footer a good rim opportunity then they are also efficient. That's why most centers in the league have extremely high efficiency, but most also have low attempts because those shots are hard to come by.

You don't think we just hand the ball to Lauri and say go drive to the rim do you?

Another thing is that it seems only Theis (and sometimes Vuc) is able to find Lauri under the basket. One could argue that the deficiencies in the current roster in that regard speak for playing Lauri less, but that is hardly a matter that should be raised in a player discussion against that player (not that you would have done so).


To the extent the Bulls aren't great at passing (and I think that's really only Coby of the guys who handle the ball a lot), it hurts everyone else on the team too. From an individual perspective, you could try and argue Lauri somewhere else might do better, but I don't see Lauri as being hurt more by this than others. He's not a high activity / high motion player that routinely finds himself generating space for himself and guys missing him. I mean I'm sure this happens, but it's not the bread and butter of his game like it might be for someone like Gafford who will far more aggressively role and has more athleticism to go up and get a pin point pass.

However, it is fair to say that the bulk of the points Lauri has scored has come from relatively open three point shots. Maybe there are not many more of those that can be "generated" for him unless the Bulls are willing to run more set plays.


The Bulls do run tons of set plays for Lauri, in the past, more so than any other player on the team.

It is also often pointed out that Lauri has a tendency to float around the perimeter. But here it should be noted that Lauri is actually quite actively looking for opportunities when he is not limited to the weak side spacer role. For some reason, the Bulls have not been able to find him in mismatches (or even cuts) as much as they should, and that is a pretty uncontroversial observation to make or at least I see it as such.


Certainly not the Bulls strength in many situations, but again, affects everyone and Lauri isn't a super high activity player that presents himself all the time either.

I think that chefo has covered this issue much better than I ever could hope to do myself. But I add that Lauri has also been quite good defensively, recently (at the very least, not in any way worse than most others), so he is quite passable as a bench player even if he is not used offensively, optimally. But in principle I agree with "The Bulls should attempt to use Lauri's offense when on the floor, because if not, why have him out there at all?" It is definitely easier said than done, but that's why not only the players but also the coaching staff are paid handsomely. We should not expect any less.


There are many reasons why to unpack why this doesn't happen. Some of them are roster construction, offensive scheme, and some of them are Lauri himself and the difficulty of doing this (or perhaps just the difficulty vs the value of doing this). In the end, I think defenses can simply take away Lauri pretty easily if he gets hot and they want to, and that's one of the big problems with using him a lot more.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#329 » by chefo » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:07 pm

I also think people are selling Lauri a tiny bit short as to why he gets so many "open" 3s. Lauri is an incredibly easy target for a pass to launch a 3 because:

* He's really tall
* He usually finds open spaces at the 3 point line well
* He has one of the quickest triggers I've ever seen on a big guy
* He has an incredibly high release point without actually jumping

Most smaller players (i.e. Robinson on the Heat, Korver back in the day, most guards like Zach and Coby) are forced to jump pretty high to get a clean(er) shot up.

Lauri doesn't. So, if you examine his shooting motion, he launches almost in the same motion as he catches the pass. That thing is out of there quick. Unless there's a guy right in his face, it's difficult to contest a shot like his well because it's out high and quicker than you can even close hard.

As I've mentioned, the speed and height of his release casual fans don't care much about, but I bet you half of his attempts are shots other, shorter guys with slower releases (say Thad or Theis) will not be able to even get off, if they were forced to. That's a skill and asset in of itself. Vuc has the same quality, BTW. He has a very high, flat-footed release point and gets it off quickly, not as quickly as Lauri, but fairly quickly before the contest can get up in his face.

I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.

It's a different question if that's how you want to use him, especially if he hits one of his cold streaks and starts going 2/10 and 3/10 more often than not. Then again, you may get lucky and he goes 5/10 or 6/10 for a stretch, which he's also capable of. Generally speaking, it'll probably average out where's been (high 30s) which is pretty decent, but there will be a lot of frustration from both the fans and the coaches when a 7 footer goes cold shooting 3s all game.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#330 » by TeamMan » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:46 pm

chefo wrote:I also think people are selling Lauri a tiny bit short as to why he gets so many "open" 3s. Lauri is an incredibly easy target for a pass to launch a 3 because:

* He's really tall
* He usually finds open spaces at the 3 point line well
* He has one of the quickest triggers I've ever seen on a big guy
* He has an incredibly high release point without actually jumping

Most smaller players (i.e. Robinson on the Heat, Korver back in the day, most guards like Zach and Coby) are forced to jump pretty high to get a clean(er) shot up.

Lauri doesn't. So, if you examine his shooting motion, he launches almost in the same motion as he catches the pass. That thing is out of there quick. Unless there's a guy right in his face, it's difficult to contest a shot like his well because it's out high and quicker than you can even close hard.

As I've mentioned, the speed and height of his release casual fans don't care much about, but I bet you half of his attempts are shots other, shorter guys with slower releases (say Thad or Theis) will not be able to even get off, if they were forced to. That's a skill and asset in of itself. Vuc has the same quality, BTW. He has a very high, flat-footed release point and gets it off quickly, not as quickly as Lauri, but fairly quickly before the contest can get up in his face.

I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.

It's a different question if that's how you want to use him, especially if he hits one of his cold streaks and starts going 2/10 and 3/10 more often than not. Then again, you may get lucky and he goes 5/10 or 6/10 for a stretch, which he's also capable of. Generally speaking, it'll probably average out where's been (high 30s) which is pretty decent, but there will be a lot of frustration from both the fans and the coaches when a 7 footer goes cold shooting 3s all game.

In the Heat game (and maybe some others, I really don't have an overview) BD used Lauri at SF.

As a SF, Lauri doesn't have to go inside and post up. He can switch between roaming the 3P line and making back-cuts to get lob passes.

The problem is for him to defend the perimeter. But if the other player doesn't have a good handle, then it's not that big a problem.

This is the scenario where one coach puts out a lineup, and the other coach has to counter in some way.

This next Heat game will give us an idea about what the Heat will do to counter Lauri at SF, and see if it works.

So the final question becomes (and it has been discussed earlier) how much do the Bulls want to use Lauri at SF.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#331 » by sco » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:18 pm

TeamMan wrote:
chefo wrote:I also think people are selling Lauri a tiny bit short as to why he gets so many "open" 3s. Lauri is an incredibly easy target for a pass to launch a 3 because:

* He's really tall
* He usually finds open spaces at the 3 point line well
* He has one of the quickest triggers I've ever seen on a big guy
* He has an incredibly high release point without actually jumping

Most smaller players (i.e. Robinson on the Heat, Korver back in the day, most guards like Zach and Coby) are forced to jump pretty high to get a clean(er) shot up.

Lauri doesn't. So, if you examine his shooting motion, he launches almost in the same motion as he catches the pass. That thing is out of there quick. Unless there's a guy right in his face, it's difficult to contest a shot like his well because it's out high and quicker than you can even close hard.

As I've mentioned, the speed and height of his release casual fans don't care much about, but I bet you half of his attempts are shots other, shorter guys with slower releases (say Thad or Theis) will not be able to even get off, if they were forced to. That's a skill and asset in of itself. Vuc has the same quality, BTW. He has a very high, flat-footed release point and gets it off quickly, not as quickly as Lauri, but fairly quickly before the contest can get up in his face.

I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.

It's a different question if that's how you want to use him, especially if he hits one of his cold streaks and starts going 2/10 and 3/10 more often than not. Then again, you may get lucky and he goes 5/10 or 6/10 for a stretch, which he's also capable of. Generally speaking, it'll probably average out where's been (high 30s) which is pretty decent, but there will be a lot of frustration from both the fans and the coaches when a 7 footer goes cold shooting 3s all game.

In the Heat game (and maybe some others, I really don't have an overview) BD used Lauri at SF.

As a SF, Lauri doesn't have to go inside and post up. He can switch between roaming the 3P line and making back-cuts to get lob passes.

The problem is for him to defend the perimeter. But if the other player doesn't have a good handle, then it's not that big a problem.

This is the scenario where one coach puts out a lineup, and the other coach has to counter in some way.

This next Heat game will give us an idea about what the Heat will do to counter Lauri at SF, and see if it works.

So the final question becomes (and it has been discussed earlier) how much do the Bulls want to use Lauri at SF.

Back when Lauri was a core part of the Bulls, I was a proponent of him playing SF. His weaknesses are more apparent as a PF. He really lacks a post game/post moves and was very bad at backing guys down. 3pt shooting and cutting - even dribbling facing the basket are more of his strengths. He probably more adept at guarding the 3pt line than post-ups too.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#332 » by Pentele » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:44 pm

sco wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
chefo wrote:I also think people are selling Lauri a tiny bit short as to why he gets so many "open" 3s. Lauri is an incredibly easy target for a pass to launch a 3 because:

* He's really tall
* He usually finds open spaces at the 3 point line well
* He has one of the quickest triggers I've ever seen on a big guy
* He has an incredibly high release point without actually jumping

Most smaller players (i.e. Robinson on the Heat, Korver back in the day, most guards like Zach and Coby) are forced to jump pretty high to get a clean(er) shot up.

Lauri doesn't. So, if you examine his shooting motion, he launches almost in the same motion as he catches the pass. That thing is out of there quick. Unless there's a guy right in his face, it's difficult to contest a shot like his well because it's out high and quicker than you can even close hard.

As I've mentioned, the speed and height of his release casual fans don't care much about, but I bet you half of his attempts are shots other, shorter guys with slower releases (say Thad or Theis) will not be able to even get off, if they were forced to. That's a skill and asset in of itself. Vuc has the same quality, BTW. He has a very high, flat-footed release point and gets it off quickly, not as quickly as Lauri, but fairly quickly before the contest can get up in his face.

I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.

It's a different question if that's how you want to use him, especially if he hits one of his cold streaks and starts going 2/10 and 3/10 more often than not. Then again, you may get lucky and he goes 5/10 or 6/10 for a stretch, which he's also capable of. Generally speaking, it'll probably average out where's been (high 30s) which is pretty decent, but there will be a lot of frustration from both the fans and the coaches when a 7 footer goes cold shooting 3s all game.

In the Heat game (and maybe some others, I really don't have an overview) BD used Lauri at SF.

As a SF, Lauri doesn't have to go inside and post up. He can switch between roaming the 3P line and making back-cuts to get lob passes.

The problem is for him to defend the perimeter. But if the other player doesn't have a good handle, then it's not that big a problem.

This is the scenario where one coach puts out a lineup, and the other coach has to counter in some way.

This next Heat game will give us an idea about what the Heat will do to counter Lauri at SF, and see if it works.

So the final question becomes (and it has been discussed earlier) how much do the Bulls want to use Lauri at SF.

Back when Lauri was a core part of the Bulls, I was a proponent of him playing SF. His weaknesses are more apparent as a PF. He really lacks a post game/post moves and was very bad at backing guys down. 3pt shooting and cutting - even dribbling facing the basket are more of his strengths. He probably more adept at guarding the 3pt line than post-ups too.


It is an interesting idea. Lauri guarding a driving player straight towards the lap of, say, Theis or Vuc might work quite well, actually (or Thad taking a charge). There should not be much room to get a shot up near the rim. I am not confident about Lauri's ability to fight through the screens quickly enough, but then again, it might be that he is not really any worse in that department than Coby or Pwill, for example (both have had their issues).

And of course, it is also possible to play Lauri offensively at 3 and defensively at four or five, depending on the line-up (especially now with the clutter at the big positions). But I would also give a go at trying Lauri as a straight 3. It is not that the Bulls have much to lose, and they have a lot of games in the schedule that they are most likely losing if everything continues as it has so far. I do not mean to imply that playing Lauri at 3 would solve the Bulls offense, but it is perhaps worth a shot.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#333 » by Swuul » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:17 pm

Mark K wrote:
Yesterday, he was guarding Jimmy Butler on defense and being guard by Butler on offense.

That was one of the interesting things indeed. Lauri ended up with +6 when he was on at the same time as Jimmy, while Jimmy ended up with -6 when he was on at the same time as Lauri. For whatever reason Bulls were better in both ends than Miami when those two guarded each other.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#334 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:17 pm

chefo wrote:I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.


But why would the coaching staff do that?

Zach and Vuc are better 3-point shooters, so if the team was going to "really put their mind" into getting someone 10 3PA/game, wouldn't it be Zach or Vuc? :dontknow:

I guess maybe that's the difference between a Bulls fan and a Lauri fan? A Bulls fan would love to see our two top-30 3pt% shooters (Zach 24th, Vuc 28th) get more 3ptAtt, while Lauri fans are only worried about getting Lauri (58th) more shots.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#335 » by chefo » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:58 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
chefo wrote:I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.


But why would the coaching staff do that?

Zach and Vuc are better 3-point shooters, so if the team was going to "really put their mind" into getting someone 10 3PA/game, wouldn't it be Zach or Vuc? :dontknow:

I guess maybe that's the difference between a Bulls fan and a Lauri fan? A Bulls fan would love to see our two top-30 3pt% shooters (Zach 24th, Vuc 28th) get more 3ptAtt, while Lauri fans are only worried about getting Lauri (58th) more shots.


Read the next paragraph.

P.S.
I'd love for Vuc, Zach and Lauri to get up 25 3s a game, I don't think it's unrealistic if our coaches emphasize it. D'Antoni Houston East, baby! Given that we're getting 1.2 points per attempt, they most definitely should try to increase these shots. If you actually did not selectively read my post, you'd notice in there that Vuc can get more 3 attempts as well because of the way he shoots it. Zach would be difficult without him playing more off-ball with a good distributor, but he's at 8 as-is... maybe run a couple of Reggie Miller plays per game more for him.

Also, that 58th does not account for volume... again. I don't care that some guy who tries 1.5 threes a game shoots it at 0.401 versus Lauri who's shooting it at 0.398 on 6 attempts. For context, because I see that number 58th thrown around a lot:

I eyeballed these, but they are directionally correct:

* Lauri is top 30 among guys who've attempted at least 5 3s a game, out of 99; for context, that's one per team better than him
* He's top 20 among guys who've attempted his current number of attempts (6) out of 58; for context, 1 out 3 teams may not have a guy as good as him at his (diminished) volume
* He'd be top 10 (I think 7th) among guys who've attempted his pre-benching attempts, which I think were above 7 (out of 27)--yeah, most teams don't have guys like Zach and Lauri--we have 2(!), possibly 3(!) guys capable of doing it.

Of all the things to complain about him (and there's plenty of material to pick from) to gnaw on that bone of a 40% 3 point shooter not getting up more attempts just seems nitpicky.

We should be thinking how to get the snipers on the team more attempts, not less. We're lucky we currently have 3 high volume, very accurate players.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#336 » by CobyWhite0 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:04 am

chefo wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
chefo wrote:I can bet you Lauri can average 10 3 attempts a game in 30 min (he was at 7 before the benching), with 2/3 of them fairly "open", if the coaching staff really put their mind to it. That's a shot that they can get for him any time they want with the simplest of P&P actions, or on the weakside elbow three off P&R action.


But why would the coaching staff do that?

Zach and Vuc are better 3-point shooters, so if the team was going to "really put their mind" into getting someone 10 3PA/game, wouldn't it be Zach or Vuc? :dontknow:

I guess maybe that's the difference between a Bulls fan and a Lauri fan? A Bulls fan would love to see our two top-30 3pt% shooters (Zach 24th, Vuc 28th) get more 3ptAtt, while Lauri fans are only worried about getting Lauri (58th) more shots.


Read the next paragraph.

P.S.
I'd love for Vuc, Zach and Lauri to get up 25 3s a game, I don't think it's unrealistic if our coaches emphasize it. D'Antoni Houston East, baby! Given that we're getting 1.2 points per attempt, they most definitely should try to increase these shots. If you actually did not selectively read my post, you'd notice in there that Vuc can get more 3 attempts as well because of the way he shoots it. Zach would be difficult without him playing more off-ball with a good distributor, but he's at 8 as-is... maybe run a couple of Reggie Miller plays per game more for him.

Also, that 58th does not account for volume... again. I don't care that some guy who tries 1.5 threes a game shoots it at 0.401 versus Lauri who's shooting it at 0.398 on 6 attempts. For context, because I see that number 58th thrown around a lot:

I eyeballed these, but they are directionally correct:

* Lauri is top 30 among guys who've attempted at least 5 3s a game, out of 99; for context, that's one per team better than him
* He's top 20 among guys who've attempted his current number of attempts (6) out of 58; for context, 1 out 3 teams may not have a guy as good as him at his (diminished) volume
* He'd be top 10 (I think 7th) among guys who've attempted his pre-benching attempts, which I think were above 7 (out of 27)--yeah, most teams don't have guys like Zach and Lauri--we have 2(!), possibly 3(!) guys capable of doing it.

Of all the things to complain about him (and there's plenty of material to pick from) to gnaw on that bone of a 40% 3 point shooter not getting up more attempts just seems nitpicky.

We should be thinking how to get the snipers on the team more attempts, not less. We're lucky we currently have 3 high volume, very accurate players.


:rofl2:

Leaving comments in for history, but if you reply with things like this just to inflame people in the future, you will be suspended/banned, there's no place for this type of thing here -doug
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#337 » by PaKii94 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:27 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
chefo wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
But why would the coaching staff do that?

Zach and Vuc are better 3-point shooters, so if the team was going to "really put their mind" into getting someone 10 3PA/game, wouldn't it be Zach or Vuc? :dontknow:

I guess maybe that's the difference between a Bulls fan and a Lauri fan? A Bulls fan would love to see our two top-30 3pt% shooters (Zach 24th, Vuc 28th) get more 3ptAtt, while Lauri fans are only worried about getting Lauri (58th) more shots.


Read the next paragraph.

P.S.
I'd love for Vuc, Zach and Lauri to get up 25 3s a game, I don't think it's unrealistic if our coaches emphasize it. D'Antoni Houston East, baby! Given that we're getting 1.2 points per attempt, they most definitely should try to increase these shots. If you actually did not selectively read my post, you'd notice in there that Vuc can get more 3 attempts as well because of the way he shoots it. Zach would be difficult without him playing more off-ball with a good distributor, but he's at 8 as-is... maybe run a couple of Reggie Miller plays per game more for him.

Also, that 58th does not account for volume... again. I don't care that some guy who tries 1.5 threes a game shoots it at 0.401 versus Lauri who's shooting it at 0.398 on 6 attempts. For context, because I see that number 58th thrown around a lot:

I eyeballed these, but they are directionally correct:

* Lauri is top 30 among guys who've attempted at least 5 3s a game, out of 99; for context, that's one per team better than him
* He's top 20 among guys who've attempted his current number of attempts (6) out of 58; for context, 1 out 3 teams may not have a guy as good as him at his (diminished) volume
* He'd be top 10 (I think 7th) among guys who've attempted his pre-benching attempts, which I think were above 7 (out of 27)--yeah, most teams don't have guys like Zach and Lauri--we have 2(!), possibly 3(!) guys capable of doing it.

Of all the things to complain about him (and there's plenty of material to pick from) to gnaw on that bone of a 40% 3 point shooter not getting up more attempts just seems nitpicky.

We should be thinking how to get the snipers on the team more attempts, not less. We're lucky we currently have 3 high volume, very accurate players.


:rofl2:


All you can do is laugh.

Bulls about to be 4-3 without Lavine. Why don't you start a new thread about that? Since you like posting the record with and without Lauri so much
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#338 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:59 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
chefo wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
But why would the coaching staff do that?

Zach and Vuc are better 3-point shooters, so if the team was going to "really put their mind" into getting someone 10 3PA/game, wouldn't it be Zach or Vuc? :dontknow:

I guess maybe that's the difference between a Bulls fan and a Lauri fan? A Bulls fan would love to see our two top-30 3pt% shooters (Zach 24th, Vuc 28th) get more 3ptAtt, while Lauri fans are only worried about getting Lauri (58th) more shots.


Read the next paragraph.

P.S.
I'd love for Vuc, Zach and Lauri to get up 25 3s a game, I don't think it's unrealistic if our coaches emphasize it. D'Antoni Houston East, baby! Given that we're getting 1.2 points per attempt, they most definitely should try to increase these shots. If you actually did not selectively read my post, you'd notice in there that Vuc can get more 3 attempts as well because of the way he shoots it. Zach would be difficult without him playing more off-ball with a good distributor, but he's at 8 as-is... maybe run a couple of Reggie Miller plays per game more for him.

Also, that 58th does not account for volume... again. I don't care that some guy who tries 1.5 threes a game shoots it at 0.401 versus Lauri who's shooting it at 0.398 on 6 attempts. For context, because I see that number 58th thrown around a lot:

I eyeballed these, but they are directionally correct:

* Lauri is top 30 among guys who've attempted at least 5 3s a game, out of 99; for context, that's one per team better than him
* He's top 20 among guys who've attempted his current number of attempts (6) out of 58; for context, 1 out 3 teams may not have a guy as good as him at his (diminished) volume
* He'd be top 10 (I think 7th) among guys who've attempted his pre-benching attempts, which I think were above 7 (out of 27)--yeah, most teams don't have guys like Zach and Lauri--we have 2(!), possibly 3(!) guys capable of doing it.

Of all the things to complain about him (and there's plenty of material to pick from) to gnaw on that bone of a 40% 3 point shooter not getting up more attempts just seems nitpicky.

We should be thinking how to get the snipers on the team more attempts, not less. We're lucky we currently have 3 high volume, very accurate players.


:rofl2:

Responding to a post that the poster obviously put thought and effort into with a dismissive emoji. This is the kind of astute analysis I come to RealGM for /s
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#339 » by WindyCityBorn » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:30 am

PaKii94 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
chefo wrote:
Read the next paragraph.

P.S.
I'd love for Vuc, Zach and Lauri to get up 25 3s a game, I don't think it's unrealistic if our coaches emphasize it. D'Antoni Houston East, baby! Given that we're getting 1.2 points per attempt, they most definitely should try to increase these shots. If you actually did not selectively read my post, you'd notice in there that Vuc can get more 3 attempts as well because of the way he shoots it. Zach would be difficult without him playing more off-ball with a good distributor, but he's at 8 as-is... maybe run a couple of Reggie Miller plays per game more for him.

Also, that 58th does not account for volume... again. I don't care that some guy who tries 1.5 threes a game shoots it at 0.401 versus Lauri who's shooting it at 0.398 on 6 attempts. For context, because I see that number 58th thrown around a lot:

I eyeballed these, but they are directionally correct:

* Lauri is top 30 among guys who've attempted at least 5 3s a game, out of 99; for context, that's one per team better than him
* He's top 20 among guys who've attempted his current number of attempts (6) out of 58; for context, 1 out 3 teams may not have a guy as good as him at his (diminished) volume
* He'd be top 10 (I think 7th) among guys who've attempted his pre-benching attempts, which I think were above 7 (out of 27)--yeah, most teams don't have guys like Zach and Lauri--we have 2(!), possibly 3(!) guys capable of doing it.

Of all the things to complain about him (and there's plenty of material to pick from) to gnaw on that bone of a 40% 3 point shooter not getting up more attempts just seems nitpicky.

We should be thinking how to get the snipers on the team more attempts, not less. We're lucky we currently have 3 high volume, very accurate players.


:rofl2:


All you can do is laugh.

Bulls about to be 4-3 without Lavine. Why don't you start a new thread about that? Since you like posting the record with and without Lauri so much


Someone already made one of those. That also means we are 4-3 with Coby White back in the starting lineup. So does Zach make us worse, is Coby a winner and now our PG of the future, is Vuc not overrated anymore? Lots of agendas to hash out for such a small sample size.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#340 » by GrowingHorns » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:33 am

Lauri is slowly showing signs of improvements with passing the ball. It doesn't yet show up as lot of assists, but he's got some "hockey assists". He isn't also anymore so hesitant to look for entry passes. As fo before, like last season still, or this early season, it feels more of them either led to TO's or he rather ditched an alibi pass at times to keep the ball with the team. It costs some seconds. The amount of play-making and faster thinking with the ball in his hands, more than shooting, moving to next man around the perimeter, or alibi passes, is not that great, but it feels especially Theis is having a good relationship with him. It seems to me they have a mutual respect and communication of the level that also seems to carry on Lauri being better in defense as well lately.

For me, I feel that the moving away from Rolo combined to Lauri's mistakes in his personal training led his progression get slower, even halted. Now I see some new things again like better concentration in help D, he has started trying to throw his palms down low moe to force the ball handlers take a bit of detour or having to haste a bit, leading bit lower percentage offenses. Again, all these things are at this point a little amount of something, but in my honest opinion, Lauri has lately started shifting back to not being afraid of trying bit more of things. He has still long ways of becoming a complete player but every time you see a still young player remembering there's things they should do more and they do it, it gives a bit of warm feeling. And I am pretty sure what it comes to team mates, Daniel Theis is the best thing happened to Lauri since RoLo. I think it's starting to show.

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