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Patrick Lee Williams Comps?

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Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#1 » by DuckIII » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:06 pm

I wrote this in the Williams thread but the board is slow, interest is down, so I thought I’d try a different angle. Please read this post before just throwing out who he could turn into if it all works out. This isn’t that type of thread.

I’m struggling to think of young players, regardless of how they turned out in the end, who were very talented and diversely skilled and were extremely hard workers, but were just crazy passive once they hit the floor.

Patrick has the physical traits and skills to be a complete player. I don’t just mean a two way player, I mean a complete player who can defend multiple positions on ball, get in passing lanes, block shots, shoot threes, finish at the rim, be an open court powerhouse, hit the mid range, post up, and pass with vision and timing.

Basically like a Jimmy Butler type of player in completeness. Physically and with demonstrated skills lall of these things are there for him to develop. He’s special.

Mentally? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything like it from someone with this much ability. Even from a rookie. Plenty of time yet to fire the engines, but damn.

Can anyone think of a comp?

Eddy Curry came to mind, not from a completeness stand point but from a passive with immense talent standpoint. But there were reg flags all along that Curry didn’t really like basketball and had a poor work ethic.

Someone mentioned Tony Snell one time but he was pretty clearly a role player 3-D type at best and his physical traits were pretty ordinary.

The reports on Williams are the opposite. He’s from a basketball family, is a video studying fiend, who spends his downtime watching the NBA and WNBA, and is a tireless worker in the gym. All which make his Milk Carton performances all that much harder to understand.

Anyone think of guys like this, who turned out well or didn’t? I’m at a loss.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#2 » by Clint Eastwood » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:16 pm

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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#3 » by Clint Eastwood » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:20 pm

But seriously, its one more thing that Patrick Williams has in common with Kawhi Leonard. Similar passivity as an early player with good work ethic and loads of talent. I’m pretty confident he could have a fairly similar career path based on everything I see. While it may seem like a lazy comp, I just think they are very similar in so many ways.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#4 » by sco » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:34 pm

Williams has skills and physical attributes, but whether he remains at "bench level" where he currently is (albeit playing with starters for developmental reasons) or becomes a true starting talent or more will be determined by his work ethic. Work ethic is a very hard to pin down trait (which is why drafting is so imprecise). Lauri supposedly had a good work ethic, but all we saw from that were body building poses. Coby supposedly had a great work ethic, but we've seen nothing on the court to support that yet. Same with Carter. Contrast that with guys like Butler and Taj, who clearly improved every year - I believe both of them credit Deng with giving them a role model. The two guys who clearly have the right type of work ethic on the Bulls are Zach and Thad.

I think the way we'll be able to tell if Williams is going to ever realize his potential is whether we hear that he works out with Zach or Thad (or similar) over the summer.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#5 » by Lexluthor » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:41 pm

I'm still sticking with the Tyrus Thomas/ Marvin Williams/Michael Kidd-Gilchrist/ Stanley Johnson comparisons. He has been a underwhelming rookie.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#6 » by MGB8 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:42 pm

Jaylen Brown his rookie year?

Edit - also Mikal and Miles Bridges before this season
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#7 » by pipfan » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:43 pm

He is our big hope to be a top team. I am betting he ends up a Deng level player-which is pretty good. But, him hitting a Pierce or Leonard level would make us contenders
I figure these are the possibilities
Leonard level-MVP type player (2%)
Pierce level-HoF, All Star but never a real superstar (10%)
Deng level-marginal All Star (40%)
Ariza level-solid, long time starter (25%)
Bazemore level-marginal starter-20%
Anthony Bennett-bust (3%)

Not very scientific, but that's how I see it
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#8 » by MGB8 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:49 pm

Lexluthor wrote:I'm still sticking with the Tyrus Thomas/ Marvin Williams/Michael Kidd-Gilchrist/ Stanley Johnson comparisons. He has been a underwhelming rookie.


No.

The only one of those who is potentially a comp is Marvin Williams - and Pat is ahead of where Marvin was as a rookie.

Tyrus Thomas wasn't really a worker and while he had the beginning of skillset, had very poor basketball IQ (at least on offense) and discipline / emotional control (his downfall). And Tyrus was more athletically gifted, too. Just a completely different type of player.

Meanwhile, MKG never was able to shoot - then got hurt a ton - while Stanley Johnson, while a marginally better shooter than MKG, has a lower work ethic and basketball IQ than Tyrus Thomas. Pat has a good basketball IQ and works - so not a comp there.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#9 » by dougthonus » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:57 pm

It's hard for me to figure out comps, because any comps would be completely forgettable players.

I think people have generally, significantly overrated Williams in virtually every way.
1: Athleticism - he is a good athlete, not an elite athlete and probably not even a great athlete. He doesn't have a lot of quick burst to his game which is probably the most important part of athleticism

2: Skills - He's probably just typical for a SF type guy all around, he's never going to be a great shooter unless he massively improves his release speed, but might be a reliable open shooter. He's pretty decent at everything else, but doesn't stand out anywhere else. HE's not a brilliant pass or ball handler and doesn't project as someone who will kill people off the dribble or be some dynamic offensive creator at any point.

3: Defense - He's solid for a rookie, but nothing amazing and I don't think he has the lateral quickness to defend elite threes successfully, so he'll be a smart positional defender and good PF defender, probably a good team defender. A plus on this end for sure, but not someone who's a game changer on this end.

Of guys we've seen as Bulls, his closest comp to me is Luol Deng, though Deng had a much quicker shot and was able to get off a lot more looks, but I think his defense projects similarly (good individually, but not elite, good for the team) and his offense projects kind of similarly (mostly a finishing point, not a major shot creator, ball handler, or passer). Deng was definitely more assertive than Williams has been to date though.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#10 » by MGB8 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:59 pm

pipfan wrote:He is our big hope to be a top team. I am betting he ends up a Deng level player-which is pretty good. But, him hitting a Pierce or Leonard level would make us contenders
I figure these are the possibilities
Leonard level-MVP type player (2%)
Pierce level-HoF, All Star but never a real superstar (10%)
Deng level-marginal All Star (40%)
Ariza level-solid, long time starter (25%)
Bazemore level-marginal starter-20%
Anthony Bennett-bust (3%)

Not very scientific, but that's how I see it


I think that's probably a touch pessimistic. Pat Williams is 19 years old and came into a team with some sort of pecking order - Lavine, then Coby (because of what he had shown last year), then Lauri, then Thad, with WCJ wanting his touches and shots (and getting force fed some early on)... then shaken up with the additions of Vuc and Theis and Brown.

Ideally, you'd have an Anthony Edwards type no-conscience, no-guilt, no-remorse, give me the ball and get out of my way attitude... but that was never Pat - at least not in college. He deferred to older players.

Is that going to be a permanent thing as his skills develop and he progresses? I kind of doubt it. I don't know that he's ever going to be a real #1 offensive option -- that's a big leap in mentality -- but I also don't think you are going to see the same kind of deference or inconsistency going forward.

I brought up Jaylen Brown (who looked kind of like a bust his rookie season), Mikal and Miles Bridges (who came in older) - these guys also deferred a lot as rookies (and sophomores to a lesser extent). Brandon Ingram is kind of similar. Now, Brown and Ingram stepped up into primary type scorers - and maybe Miles Bridges is in the process of doing that this season. Not sure if Pat Will do that too or be more like Mikal Bridges or Marvin Williams - forever a secondary guy - but it's just too early to tell.

Anyway, I think that, barring injury, there's basically no risk that Pat is a bust or even anything less than a middling starter type - a la Marvin or Ariza or PJ Tucker or Danny Green or even Shane Battier....

the question is whether he'll be more - and only Pat Williams can answer that.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#11 » by DuckIII » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:00 pm

To be clear, what I’m ultimately looking for are examples of highly talented hard working players who were incredibly passive early in their careers. It would be interesting to see how many guys like that there have even been, and among them how their careers panned out.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#12 » by MGB8 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:05 pm

dougthonus wrote:It's hard for me to figure out comps, because any comps would be completely forgettable players.

I think people have generally, significantly overrated Williams in virtually every way.
1: Athleticism - he is a good athlete, not an elite athlete and probably not even a great athlete. He doesn't have a lot of quick burst to his game which is probably the most important part of athleticism

2: Skills - He's probably just typical for a SF type guy all around, he's never going to be a great shooter unless he massively improves his release speed, but might be a reliable open shooter. He's pretty decent at everything else, but doesn't stand out anywhere else. HE's not a brilliant pass or ball handler and doesn't project as someone who will kill people off the dribble or be some dynamic offensive creator at any point.

3: Defense - He's solid for a rookie, but nothing amazing and I don't think he has the lateral quickness to defend elite threes successfully, so he'll be a smart positional defender and good PF defender, probably a good team defender. A plus on this end for sure, but not someone who's a game changer on this end.

Of guys we've seen as Bulls, his closest comp to me is Luol Deng, though Deng had a much quicker shot and was able to get off a lot more looks, but I think his defense projects similarly (good individually, but not elite, good for the team) and his offense projects kind of similarly (mostly a finishing point, not a major shot creator, ball handler, or passer). Deng was definitely more assertive than Williams has been to date though.


Athletically he reminds me of Ron Artest - which is still quite good - though he might be a touch "stiffer" - a la Harrison Barnes.

Skill-wise, I think you are underrating him to a degree - in the sense that you are looking him as a finished, maxed out player rather than a 19 year old who is still developing his skills - in particular ball handling and passing (but also shooting from range).

That said, the Marvin Williams comp that someone else posted is actually pretty good, the more that I think about it. But Pat Williams has better skills coming in that Marvin did (and it shows in a statistical comparison): https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=willipa01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=willima02&p2yrfrom=2006
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#13 » by dougthonus » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:05 pm

DuckIII wrote:To be clear, what I’m ultimately looking for are examples of highly talented hard working players who were incredibly passive early in their careers. It would be interesting to see how many guys like that there have even been, and among them how their careers panned out.


I'd note that it is highly suspicious that Williams is incredibly talented, that doesn't really seem true to me. His skill level isn't high for his position at all. His shot mechanics are okay, but he has a slow release and isn't an advanced shooter. Definitely not an advanced ball handler / court vision guy either.

I'd also say, how do you know he works so hard? The vast majority of players have reputations of being hard workers coming out of college, probably because the guys whom are super elite, likely are mostly all very hard workers (there are exceptions, but those are exceptions not the rule).
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#14 » by ChettheJet » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:21 pm

Clint Eastwood wrote:But seriously, its one more thing that Patrick Williams has in common with Kawhi Leonard. Similar passivity as an early player with good work ethic and loads of talent. I’m pretty confident he could have a fairly similar career path based on everything I see. While it may seem like a lazy comp, I just think they are very similar in so many ways.


They made the Kawhi comparison on the broadcast a few games back. As a SA rookie he had a lot of established players on the roster and on the floor with him so his numbers didn't how much. But there cama a point when Pops said, it's time to use this kid and well he showed up.

I look at PW as being capable of being a bit of a throwback player. I wish he would take a look at film of Bob Love who at 6-8 in an era before there were SF and PF he was just a forward. He could shoot outside, in what's now called the mid-range game, if there had been a 3 point line he might have been capable. He could work in the low post, he could pass the ball, he rebounded and was a solid defensive player. And he did that for the 5 consecutive 50 win teams, a division title and a conference finals. That's how his number got up in the rafters
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#15 » by MrSparkle » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:29 pm



Well, his high points have looked good. My hope is he’s just hit the rookie wall. Probably playing through some nagging injuries and knee fatigue at this point. The schedule has been very dense, and he’s shouldered the top defensive assignments all season. He’s 3rd in total minutes; most games played by any Bull this year, and he’s been very busy since the off-season pickup games, training camp, pre-season.

The trades heavily congested the paint and moved him further to the perimeter and taken away some cuts to the basket.

He is the 2nd youngest player in the league, playing at a tougher level of competition then ever before.

Or he’s the cousin of James Ennis and Marvin Williams. I don’t know- but he sure seems to have some interesting talent, and a steady starting job. I don’t particularly feel he’s been spoon-fed minutes. He’s playing system ball on a team with too many shooters and too few creators.

IMO he’s a pretty unique prospect. Definitely makes me think of a PF (skillset), albeit with SF athleticism/mobility. More in the realm of K. Malone, Siakam, Draymond meets Jaylen Brown. Of course that’s a rich man’s comparison. Poor man, we’re looking at Marvin Williams, Markieff Morris meet Deng? Or does it get poorer? I don’t see the point of sinking too low with projections. He’s already proven useful to lineups most the time.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#16 » by drosestruts » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:31 pm

Are we sure we're just not drinking the kool-aid on the whole "hard worker thing"? I feel like every team promotes their young players as hard workers.

I don't think I've seen anything this year that makes me feel that Williams is working any harder than any of the other rookies.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#17 » by Little Nathan » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:47 pm

Lexluthor wrote:I'm still sticking with the Tyrus Thomas/ Marvin Williams/Michael Kidd-Gilchrist/ Stanley Johnson comparisons. He has been a underwhelming rookie.


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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#18 » by sco » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:50 pm

drosestruts wrote:Are we sure we're just not drinking the kool-aid on the whole "hard worker thing"? I feel like every team promotes their young players as hard workers.

I don't think I've seen anything this year that makes me feel that Williams is working any harder than any of the other rookies.

I haven't heard anecdotal things like he's the doing tons of time in film room or midnight shooting sessions, or more importantly, I'm not seeing notable improvements in his game.

That said, one area that he has really shined at that has been underdiscussed. His vision/passing are very good. His ability to find and hit open guys with bullet passes on target has impressed me. He notices when guys cheat off their man, even a little, to stop his penetration and makes the pass to the open man super-fast. I'd love the Bulls to give him more opportunities to exploit that.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#19 » by DuckIII » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:01 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:To be clear, what I’m ultimately looking for are examples of highly talented hard working players who were incredibly passive early in their careers. It would be interesting to see how many guys like that there have even been, and among them how their careers panned out.


I'd note that it is highly suspicious that Williams is incredibly talented, that doesn't really seem true to me. His skill level isn't high for his position at all. His shot mechanics are okay, but he has a slow release and isn't an advanced shooter. Definitely not an advanced ball handler / court vision guy either.

I'd also say, how do you know he works so hard? The vast majority of players have reputations of being hard workers coming out of college, probably because the guys whom are super elite, likely are mostly all very hard workers (there are exceptions, but those are exceptions not the rule).


That's all fine. Just humor me and assume the premise. I don't agree with anything in your post about his physical talent or skills, to such a significant degree I think you are completely and utterly wrong about all of it. But thats cool and doesn't really matter to the thread. I've read numerous reports about Williams going back illustrating that he's a gym rat and basketball junkie, much like Zach, with another similarity between the two being that there families are hoops families. So just assume, whether you agree or not, that he's a hard working basketball-immersed type of guy. Unlike say Eddy Curry who I mentioned in my opening.

So we can ignore whether we agree about Williams. Even just completely ignore that the description is of Williams and just try to think of comps for such a ficticious player.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#20 » by DuckIII » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:05 pm

Ugh. This thread is turning into a debate about Williams quality. I stated my opinion, but I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm more interested in thinking of players who, if you simply accept the premise even without agreeing with it, have been talented in this presumed way and yet were remarkably passive early in their careers. And then whether their careers went well, or whether they petered our.

I was trying to think of such players, but was struggling. So I thought I'd enlist the collective board mind.

Its intended to be an exercise in information gathering, not a debate.
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