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Patrick Lee Williams Comps?

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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#141 » by TallDude » Sat May 1, 2021 8:57 am

Playing Pwill that much is no accident. Right name is tanking. But still Bulls still have won too much. This game would have been winnable if he would started of the bench and give him 15min. He deserve no more.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#142 » by rtblues » Sat May 1, 2021 1:01 pm

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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#143 » by Stratmaster » Sat May 1, 2021 2:57 pm

DuckIII wrote:I wrote this in the Williams thread but the board is slow, interest is down, so I thought I’d try a different angle. Please read this post before just throwing out who he could turn into if it all works out. This isn’t that type of thread.

I’m struggling to think of young players, regardless of how they turned out in the end, who were very talented and diversely skilled and were extremely hard workers, but were just crazy passive once they hit the floor.

Patrick has the physical traits and skills to be a complete player. I don’t just mean a two way player, I mean a complete player who can defend multiple positions on ball, get in passing lanes, block shots, shoot threes, finish at the rim, be an open court powerhouse, hit the mid range, post up, and pass with vision and timing.

Basically like a Jimmy Butler type of player in completeness. Physically and with demonstrated skills lall of these things are there for him to develop. He’s special.

Mentally? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything like it from someone with this much ability. Even from a rookie. Plenty of time yet to fire the engines, but damn.

Can anyone think of a comp?

Eddy Curry came to mind, not from a completeness stand point but from a passive with immense talent standpoint. But there were reg flags all along that Curry didn’t really like basketball and had a poor work ethic.

Someone mentioned Tony Snell one time but he was pretty clearly a role player 3-D type at best and his physical traits were pretty ordinary.

The reports on Williams are the opposite. He’s from a basketball family, is a video studying fiend, who spends his downtime watching the NBA and WNBA, and is a tireless worker in the gym. All which make his Milk Carton performances all that much harder to understand.

Anyone think of guys like this, who turned out well or didn’t? I’m at a loss.
I got one. There was a guy who played st Beattie playground. His name was Philly Willy.

He wasn't from Philly though. That's actually what his parents named him. I think Willy is of Irish derivation, but I am not sure.

His mom worked in the cafeteria at my grade school. She made the best spaghetti. The sauce wasn't runny, but it also wasn't too "tomatoey" if you know what I mean.

The grade school had a really big and cool playground. I hated the principal though. I would cut class and climb into the roof to hide. We had some good tennis ball baseball games though. If you hit the ball over the fence onto Benton Street it was a Homer.

Oh... back to Philly Willy. He had a money 12 foot jump shot. None of the rest of us could make those.

Sorry. That's all I got for anything Bulls related right now.

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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#144 » by SfBull » Sat May 1, 2021 3:40 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
Ice Man wrote:I would have preferred him to be treated as LaMelo was -- come off the bench until you show that you're better than the guy who is starting ahead of you. But Pat was never asked to prove himself.


I dont think we really had a choice. The obvious choice would have been just to start Otto. But Otto is made of glass. Billy did try to hide Otto and save him by bringing him off the bench. But once Lauri went out, they had to start Otto anyway but he broke down nearly instantly.

Pat actually was actually somewhat aggressive in the preseason. But as soon as the regular season started, he certainly took a big step backward in that department.

There was a choice before the trade playing Temple at 3 and after the trade having 2 options in Temple and TBJ.Donovan kept Williams starting because he wanted even know that he's playing so bad.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#145 » by SfBull » Sat May 1, 2021 3:41 pm

beeshma wrote:
DASMACKDOWN wrote:I basically am not paying attention to Pat until next year. He is bringing up my pressure.

He is so passive, that he could have a lineup of Felicio, Aminu, Valentine, and Arch and will still take a backseat to setup Felicio for shots.


I remember with Tony Snell being so passive they made him point guard in summer league for the last few games. It actually seemed to work, and forced him to take responsibility for the team's success on each play. I am very curious if PWill could be given a role like this for a few games to see if he responds with more activity.

EDIT: given a primary ball handling role, not the point guard though!

I suspect he'll keep playing passively.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#146 » by HINrichPolice » Sat May 1, 2021 5:52 pm

I think a lot of the pessimism regarding Patrick Williams right now is simply due to a need for a scapegoat.

Although we've had many ups and downs this season, we had a legit stretch of looking like a playoff bound team. Our chemistry on offense was great. We were hitting timely shots. We were getting timely defensive stops. It was some of the most fun Bulls basketball I've watched in years. Then we hit the all-star break, and it has felt like one disappointment after another.

And since this is my first time perusing the board in a while, it's news to me just how down you all are on Patrick Williams.

But just imagine for a moment that we maintained our pre-all-star game level of play and got into the play in as the 9th or 8th as we were on pace to do. And also imagine that Patrick Williams was playing the same way that he has. Would you all be as negative?

I doubt it. You'd be giving him the benefit of the doubt because you've seen his flashes of being a solid 19 year old rookie while showing flashes of star level ability on both offense and defense.

So given all that, my question to you all is this:

Why are you making a 19 year old the scapegoat? We should be on Lauri's case for being a huge disappointment. We should be on the coaching staff for perhaps not putting Lauri in position strategically and mentally to not have regressed so much. We should be upset that Gafford has looked great in Washington because they found a role for him. We should be upset that Denzel doesn't seem to feel like he'll be held accountable. We should be upset that we're relying on Thaddeus Young to play the best ball of his career to even have a chance for the playoffs. We should be upset that Coby has been inconsistent compared to his rookie self. We should be disappointed in Lavine's COVID protocol. We should be disappointed that Troy Brown became a legit rotation player and has had a terribly timed injury. We shouldn't be underrating Temple's absence during our tough stretch.

Of ALL the things we should be down about, should it be that our 19 year old rookie hasn't learned to be a leader and catalyst for our team?
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#147 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat May 1, 2021 6:30 pm

I don't blame Pat for this season's struggles one bit. 19-year-olds don't contribute to winning. That'd be unreasonable to expect. I'd be 100% fine if Pat were a big net negative but had shown star upside. My critique is entirely about his projection.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#148 » by ZOMG » Sat May 1, 2021 6:53 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:I don't blame Pat for this season's struggles one bit. 19-year-olds don't contribute to winning. That'd be unreasonable to expect. I'd be 100% fine if Pat were a big net negative but had shown star upside. My critique is entirely about his projection.


They don't?
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#149 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat May 1, 2021 6:55 pm

ZOMG wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:I don't blame Pat for this season's struggles one bit. 19-year-olds don't contribute to winning. That'd be unreasonable to expect. I'd be 100% fine if Pat were a big net negative but had shown star upside. My critique is entirely about his projection.


They don't?


By and large, no, they don't.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#150 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat May 1, 2021 8:27 pm

HINrichPolice wrote:I think a lot of the pessimism regarding Patrick Williams right now is simply due to a need for a scapegoat.

Although we've had many ups and downs this season, we had a legit stretch of looking like a playoff bound team. Our chemistry on offense was great. We were hitting timely shots. We were getting timely defensive stops. It was some of the most fun Bulls basketball I've watched in years. Then we hit the all-star break, and it has felt like one disappointment after another.

And since this is my first time perusing the board in a while, it's news to me just how down you all are on Patrick Williams.

But just imagine for a moment that we maintained our pre-all-star game level of play and got into the play in as the 9th or 8th as we were on pace to do. And also imagine that Patrick Williams was playing the same way that he has. Would you all be as negative?

I doubt it. You'd be giving him the benefit of the doubt because you've seen his flashes of being a solid 19 year old rookie while showing flashes of star level ability on both offense and defense.

So given all that, my question to you all is this:

Why are you making a 19 year old the scapegoat? We should be on Lauri's case for being a huge disappointment. We should be on the coaching staff for perhaps not putting Lauri in position strategically and mentally to not have regressed so much. We should be upset that Gafford has looked great in Washington because they found a role for him. We should be upset that Denzel doesn't seem to feel like he'll be held accountable. We should be upset that we're relying on Thaddeus Young to play the best ball of his career to even have a chance for the playoffs. We should be upset that Coby has been inconsistent compared to his rookie self. We should be disappointed in Lavine's COVID protocol. We should be disappointed that Troy Brown became a legit rotation player and has had a terribly timed injury. We shouldn't be underrating Temple's absence during our tough stretch.

Of ALL the things we should be down about, should it be that our 19 year old rookie hasn't learned to be a leader and catalyst for our team?

Expressing concern for an alarming lack of aggression isn't scapegoating, it's legitimate criticism. As poorly as our #7 pick trio is currently viewed, they all flashed far more promise as rookies than PWill has. My criticism for him is entirely separate from my criticism for the team as a whole. Even when we were playing well I was still expressing the same concerns about him. We could be the 4th seed right now and I'd still be concerned with his development thus far.

I haven't seen any of the "flashes of star level ability on both offense and defense" that you speak of, aside from maybe a few very rare individual plays here and there interspersed over the course of the entire season. Most of the hopes for him reaching stardom are just wishfully optimistic projections based of his draft spot, age, a similar aesthetic and personality to Kawhi, an overrating of his defense, athleticism and skill set, and a steady diet of misguided hype by Stacey King and the Bulls PR team.

And for the record, Lauri and Zach are the scapegoats. They receive the most blame by far, some of which is fair, much of which is not. I haven't seen anyone blaming the team's problems on PWill, but I have seen people blame it on Lauri and Zach numerous times. PWill is probably the 2nd least scapegoated player on the team behind only Theis. You shouldn't mistake valid concerns over his development with scapegoating.

We neither need nor expect PWill to be the leader or catalyst for our team at this point in his career; we're down about his extreme passivity and lack of apparent development over the course of this season, which I think is completely reasonable. What I think is unreasonable is giving him a free pass just because he's a young rookie.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#151 » by dougthonus » Sun May 2, 2021 6:39 pm

HINrichPolice wrote:I think a lot of the pessimism regarding Patrick Williams right now is simply due to a need for a scapegoat.


I don't think Pat Williams is the skapegoat of anything. There is no reason to blame him for anything that is happening this season at all.

I don't know that there is so much pessimism either, just the removal of irrational optimism.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#152 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 6:53 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:As poorly as our #7 pick trio is currently viewed, they all flashed far more promise as rookies than PWill has.


I agree with your entire post except this. Depending on semantics one could make a strong argument that Lauri showed “far more promise as a rookie.” His production was incredible and I considered him basically an untouchable prospect. Which, by the way, is an excellent argument in favor of Doug’s posts even though I disagree with him completely.

But Williams has shown - and I mean by substantial degrees - far more “promise” than either WCJ or White. His combination of tools and physical traits is in just a whole other class. Different class than Lauri too, but I won’t quibble about their rookie years given Lauri’s outstanding productivity.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#153 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 7:33 pm

DuckIII wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:As poorly as our #7 pick trio is currently viewed, they all flashed far more promise as rookies than PWill has.


I agree with your entire post except this. Depending on semantics one could make a strong argument that Lauri showed “far more promise as a rookie.” His production was incredible and I considered him basically an untouchable prospect. Which, by the way, is an excellent argument in favor of Doug’s posts even though I disagree with him completely.

But Williams has shown - and I mean by substantial degrees - far more “promise” than either WCJ or White. His combination of tools and physical traits is in just a whole other class. Different class than Lauri too, but I won’t quibble about their rookie years given Lauri’s outstanding productivity.

Well, PWill's combination of tools and physical traits were obviously superior to WCJ's and Coby's from the moment we drafted him. He didn't even need to play a single game for that to be true. But in terms of on-court production, WCJ and Coby outperformed PWill as rookies by a ridiculous margin.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#154 » by dougthonus » Sun May 2, 2021 7:43 pm

DuckIII wrote:But Williams has shown - and I mean by substantial degrees - far more “promise” than either WCJ or White. His combination of tools and physical traits is in just a whole other class. Different class than Lauri too, but I won’t quibble about their rookie years given Lauri’s outstanding productivity.


Coby's end to his rookie season where he was dropping 20+ every game on high 3 point percentage was more promising than anything Pat has shown to date IMO, but Coby didn't have any special athleticism, so any hope with him would be based on him becoming an elite shooter or some other elite level of skills.

I agree WCJ never really showed any type of star potential, just an above average guy on both sides.

I disagree that Pat has any special combination of tools though. What tools do you think he has that are special? I know we disagree about his athleticism which I also think is good, but nothing special, he's absolutely not a quick burst guy which is usually what I think of when thinking of elite athletes at an NBA level.

I could see how it could work for him in the future, good enough athleticism, needs great skills, very strong and can out muscle people, but there's a whole ton of unusually good development required to get there.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#155 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 8:00 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:But Williams has shown - and I mean by substantial degrees - far more “promise” than either WCJ or White. His combination of tools and physical traits is in just a whole other class. Different class than Lauri too, but I won’t quibble about their rookie years given Lauri’s outstanding productivity.


Coby's end to his rookie season where he was dropping 20+ every game on high 3 point percentage was more promising than anything Pat has shown to date IMO, but Coby didn't have any special athleticism, so any hope with him would be based on him becoming an elite shooter or some other elite level of skills.

I agree WCJ never really showed any type of star potential, just an above average guy on both sides.

I disagree that Pat has any special combination of tools though. What tools do you think he has that are special? I know we disagree about his athleticism which I also think is good, but nothing special, he's absolutely not a quick burst guy which is usually what I think of when thinking of elite athletes at an NBA level.

I could see how it could work for him in the future, good enough athleticism, needs great skills, very strong and can out muscle people, but there's a whole ton of unusually good development required to get there.


He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#156 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 8:21 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:But Williams has shown - and I mean by substantial degrees - far more “promise” than either WCJ or White. His combination of tools and physical traits is in just a whole other class. Different class than Lauri too, but I won’t quibble about their rookie years given Lauri’s outstanding productivity.


Coby's end to his rookie season where he was dropping 20+ every game on high 3 point percentage was more promising than anything Pat has shown to date IMO.

I agree WCJ never really showed any type of star potential.

I disagree that Pat has any special combination of tools though. What tools do you think he has that are special? I know we disagree about his athleticism which I also think is good, but nothing special, he's absolutely not a quick burst guy which is usually what I think of when thinking of elite athletes at an NBA level.

He pretty much has the prototypical build and length for the modern switchable 3/4 hybrid, he's athletic, and he's ostensibly a good defender. He's not the safe high floor, low ceiling player that many people viewed Lauri, WCJ, and Coby to be. That combined with going 4th overall and having a similar on-court aesthetic as Kawhi has a lot of people excited.

The thing that many people either don't see or simply choose not to see is that he's merely a good athlete but not a great one, his defensive reputation was unearned and conflicts with his actual defensive ability, and he lacks any standout skills or abilities aside from a solid midrange game. I'm probably going to get crucified for this, but I think Hutch has flashed superior athleticism than PWill has thus far, and I never even viewed Hutch as a particularly special athlete either. PWill's lack of lateral quickness certainly makes me question the Kawhi comparisons and the expectations that he can ever become this versatile, switchable, multi-positional defensive force are a pipe dream as far as I'm concerned. He's not a particularly good finisher either, which is troubling for a guy with his length and supposed elite athleticism.

People think he can be a point forward too, likely due to the fact that he played PG in HS, but what they're failing to consider is that most NBA players played PG at lower levels because in general they were the most skilled player on their teams. That doesn't mean they're capable of running point in the NBA. I don't think his handle is tight enough. I saw him lose the ball when running a basic P&R as the ballhandler a few weeks ago. He seems to be a willing passer, hell if anything too willing, but I haven't seen any standout playmaking traits that lead me to believe he can run point.

To answer your question, I think a lot of people are simply seeing what they want to see. They want him to be an elite athlete, so any athletic play he makes gets hyper focused on while they ignore all the other signs that he's not an elite athlete. They want him to be an elite defender, so they cling to misleading stats like "PWill leads all rookies in defensive rating" while ignoring the fact that he continuously struggles to stay in front of his man. They want him to be a hard worker who improves his game in the offseason, so they cling to quotes and ignore the fact that his on-court effort has been by and large lacking this season. They want him to be a superstar, so they excuse his alarming passivity and ignore the fact that he has a role player's mentality.

It happened to Lauri, WCJ, and Coby and now it's happening to PWill. Maybe he will turn out to be a superstar. I'm certainly not saying he won't, but I'm just not going to set that as my expectation until I see real evidence to suggest that is a likely outcome.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#157 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 8:24 pm

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:But Williams has shown - and I mean by substantial degrees - far more “promise” than either WCJ or White. His combination of tools and physical traits is in just a whole other class. Different class than Lauri too, but I won’t quibble about their rookie years given Lauri’s outstanding productivity.


Coby's end to his rookie season where he was dropping 20+ every game on high 3 point percentage was more promising than anything Pat has shown to date IMO, but Coby didn't have any special athleticism, so any hope with him would be based on him becoming an elite shooter or some other elite level of skills.

I agree WCJ never really showed any type of star potential, just an above average guy on both sides.

I disagree that Pat has any special combination of tools though. What tools do you think he has that are special? I know we disagree about his athleticism which I also think is good, but nothing special, he's absolutely not a quick burst guy which is usually what I think of when thinking of elite athletes at an NBA level.

I could see how it could work for him in the future, good enough athleticism, needs great skills, very strong and can out muscle people, but there's a whole ton of unusually good development required to get there.


He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.

Like what? He's not an elite athlete and his lateral quickness is notably worse than what it should be for a player of his archetype. He's not a standout shooter, finisher, ball handler, or passer. He has prototypical size and length for a modern 3/4, but other than that, what are these tools you're referring to?
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#158 » by dougthonus » Sun May 2, 2021 9:50 pm

DuckIII wrote:He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.


Not sure what you mean by "he has every tool". He doesn't stand out as a shooter, ball handler, passer, or burst athlete relative to other prospects his age.

He's not a great ball handler, passer, or shooter. He's not awful at any of those things, but if you count just being decent at something showing you have the tools, then a heck of a lot of players have all the tools. Chandler Hutchison had all the tools by this definition.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#159 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 10:00 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Coby's end to his rookie season where he was dropping 20+ every game on high 3 point percentage was more promising than anything Pat has shown to date IMO, but Coby didn't have any special athleticism, so any hope with him would be based on him becoming an elite shooter or some other elite level of skills.

I agree WCJ never really showed any type of star potential, just an above average guy on both sides.

I disagree that Pat has any special combination of tools though. What tools do you think he has that are special? I know we disagree about his athleticism which I also think is good, but nothing special, he's absolutely not a quick burst guy which is usually what I think of when thinking of elite athletes at an NBA level.

I could see how it could work for him in the future, good enough athleticism, needs great skills, very strong and can out muscle people, but there's a whole ton of unusually good development required to get there.


He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.

Like what? He's not an elite athlete and his lateral quickness is notably worse than what it should be for a player of his archetype. He's not a standout shooter, finisher, ball handler, or passer. He has prototypical size and length for a modern 3/4, but other than that, what are these tools you're referring to?


Half court handle going both left and right. Open court handle. Half court passing from the perimeter and off the dribble. Scores at all three levels. Finishes out to 6 feet with both his left and his right.

His lateral quickness is not an issue, it’s his awareness and anticipation that need work. His open court north south speed is excellent for his size. He has a high end combination of size, strength, length, speed and quick leap vertical. Though only strength is independently elite, the combination is unusual and only prototypical in the sense that you want to have it. Not that it’s normal to have. He can rebound in traffic, poke away balls off the dribble and jump passing lanes.

There is virtually nothing he has not shown, through physical traits and demonstrated skills, that he cannot do. That he does not have the ability to do.

The question is mentally will he get there and does he have the motor. The intangibles. And I’m openly concerned he may not. But everything else is there.

He’s not a Derrick Rose level freak. But he’s the closest thing we’ve had to that type of prospect since Rose and before Rose for quite some time. It’s all there.

But it all being realized is a whole other issue.
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Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#160 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 10:04 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.


Not sure what you mean by "he has every tool". He doesn't stand out as a shooter, ball handler, passer, or burst athlete relative to other prospects his age.

He's not a great ball handler, passer, or shooter. He's not awful at any of those things, but if you count just being decent at something showing you have the tools, then a heck of a lot of players have all the tools. Chandler Hutchison had all the tools by this definition.


Chandler Hutchison could not execute a cone dribble at one of my 5th grade basketball practices and was a “zero level” scorer. Couldn’t hit threes, had no mid range game, and is one of the worst finishers I’ve ever seen unless it was a dunk. He also had no left hand and I’m not sure I ever saw him pass the ball unless it was a two hand swing pass. What are you talking about?
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